DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Cynthia on December 17, 2008, 12:14:36 AM
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Ok, I know there are some veterans on the Gate. I am directing this question to you. (and of course everyone else who wants to make a comment). I need some answers.
Do you think Bush will feel guilty about the boys/men who have died in this war that he "called" based on WMD?
Did Johnson feel guilty about the boys/men in Vietnam?
I already know the answer to that one.
I am just curious.
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Ok, I know there are some veterans on the Gate. I am directing this question to you. (and of course everyone else who wants to make a comment). I need some answers.
Do you think Bush will feel guilty about the boys/men who have died in this war that he "called" based on WMD?
Did Johnson feel guilty about the boys/men in Vietnam?
I already know the answer to that one.
I am just curious.
Johnson had a conscience. The Bushidiot doesnt. Figure it out.
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<<Do you think Bush will feel guilty about the boys/men who have died in this war that he "called" based on WMD?>>
Yes but he'll never admit it. Not even to himself. He'll repeat the lies till he believes his own bullshit but at some level he'll know he killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Americans for a lie.
I don't think Bush dreamed this war up by himself. He was conned and/or manipulated into it. He's always been a weak, inadequate man, with a distant, war-hero father and a cold, unfeeling bitch of a mother. He never measured up in their eyes, and so he became a cokehead and a borderline alcoholic and - - to give credit where credit's due - - he pulled himself out of it and to some extent conquered his own weaknesses. But he couldn't do it without lying and cheating (the insider trading scandal was a key indicator of who he really was) and he knew that too. The people around him knew or sensed where his weaknesses lay. They are vultures, Zionists, neocons, thieves, liars and opportunists - - they convinced him he could be a man; more so than his father, who "wimped out" at the end of the first Gulf War by not taking out Saddam and thereby removing Israel's most dangerous foe in the Middle East. This was at the core of his dilemma - - he knew he wasn't half the man his father was and his bitch of a mother would never love him, but IF . . . IF he could appear as cold and decisive as his father, maybe, maybe . . .
This is how real men act, George - - sumbitch has the oil, you ATTACK him, George, whip his ass, occupy his land, TAKE his oil. Are you a man or a mouse?
And Bush the poor sucker caved in on it. At some level he must have known he was wrong, just like he knew it was wrong to lie to the SEC investigators, but it was the easy way out, he'd (finally) be a hero, just like Dad.
He can only lie to himself for so long and it only goes so deep. He knows, alright. He'll know it till the day he dies.
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Ok, I know there are some veterans on the Gate. I am directing this question to you. (and of course everyone else who wants to make a comment). I need some answers.
Do you think Bush will feel guilty about the boys/men who have died in this war that he "called" based on WMD?
Did Johnson feel guilty about the boys/men in Vietnam?
I already know the answer to that one.
I am just curious.
Johnson had a conscience. The Bushidiot doesnt. Figure it out.
Figure it out?
Are you directing that question TO ME?
I just put the issue OUT THERE for folks to respond.
I believe I saw a glimmer of pain in his eye tonight when I witnessed teh interview with the CNN reporter.
He's a spent man. What the hell...BUSH was a president of the nation in which we live. We can all sit back and bitch, complain and rehash the past...but the man was a leader for 8 years. Sure I think he was a failure, but who the hell could have done any better at the job? YOU? ME? THEE?
I disagree. I think Bush does have a heart for the nation as well as the soldier.
He just wasn't very bright as a leader.
Let's just see if Obama can step up to that plate.
Bottom line?
I really do believe that it boils down to "intelligence".
Did Bush have that? I don't think so.
Obama is a smart human being. Perhaps his brain power will win out on this one.
But, the job is a tough one, imo. We all have to take part in raising this damn village.
I try every day of my life to support the children of this nation. I know we are blamed and put down...but I also know that there's more to the story. Bush just didn't have the right advisers. That's a shame.
Gray hair? Ducking to the left? Whatever.
He had one of the most difficult jobs in this world. Funny becasue I wanted our nation to do the right thing after 911. I remember hearing at parties in the early 2001 days or woe.....WHY IRAQ? The average Joe/Jane public knew something wasn't right even then.
But, I will not send him to hell in a hand basket. I will support any sort of regrouping Obama has to offer.
God, we need to get more involved in our nation's politics. we really do.
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The RW Repub lunatics elected a near retard as Pres. There is little wonder that he fucked everything up. Clinton had to repair 12 years of Reagan / Bush I bullshit. Maybe O will have as much luck with the real idiocy of Bush II.
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The RW Repub lunatics elected a near retard as Pres. There is little wonder that he fucked everything up. Clinton had to repair 12 years of Reagan / Bush I bullshit. Maybe O will have as much luck with the real idiocy of Bush II.
Bush wiped out Saddam. Hands Down. Clinton wiped his ___ clean on the dress of another woman outside his marriage.
Ok, that was a low blow....damn I hate to admit it, but I wanted Bush to be smart on this one. He did have a job to do after such a horrific event (September 11, 2001). Cilnton was no better, Knutey. He was a real jerk. He was smart, yes, but apparently not smart enough to see that the terror attack in 93 was serious Sh*T.
No prez is going to save this world. But, the sad news is that Bush was indeed pre mature in his nature as a good old boy.
sad.
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Don't pay any attention to the snowblower and nutey. They're just depressed people with nothing to add.
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Don't pay any attention to the snowblower and nutey. They're just depressed people with nothing to add.
What you have, crip?
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Ok, I know there are some veterans on the Gate. I am directing this question to you. (and of course everyone else who wants to make a comment). I need some answers.
Do you think Bush will feel guilty about the boys/men who have died in this war that he "called" based on WMD?
Did Johnson feel guilty about the boys/men in Vietnam?
I already know the answer to that one.
I am just curious.
I think he definitely does feel at least emotional about it. He is human, after all. Even Roosevelt, sending soldiers into a war that was universally supported, is said to have cried when sending soldiers in, simply for knowing that he was sending so many of them to their deaths.
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>>What you have, crip?<<
Not only is nutey depressed, he can't speak english.
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>>What you have, crip?<<
Not only is nutey depressed, he can't speak english.
I can speak it. I just cant write it sometimes. What cant you do?
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Don't pay any attention to the snowblower and nutey. They're just depressed people with nothing to add.
LOL....NutEE can be a bit off sometimes. . . this is true. ;)
Snow blower...that's a nice way to describe the day I had ....SNOW DAY. Yippie !
God, I love the snow.
We get so little of it here.
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Don't pay any attention to the snowblower and nutey. They're just depressed people with nothing to add.
What you have, crip?
Knute will be taking a minimum 1 month time out for that tasteless remark.
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Knute will be taking a minimum 1 month time out for that tasteless remark.
I'm sure that someone will miss him. Maybe.
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"that tasteless remark"
did i miss something?
i'm lost
can someome pm me and explain
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<<Knute will be taking a minimum 1 month time out for that tasteless remark.>>
While goading Knute into the "tasteless remark" with comments on his allegedly depressed state of mental health earns Great Debator points.
I have a great idea - - instead of debating real issues, let's all attack one another on the grounds of our relative mental health or lack of it. Now THAT'S a debate!!
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What you have, crip?
Well, he has a command of the English language, for starters. That's something you have yet to achieve.
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I have a great idea - - instead of debating real issues, let's all attack one another on the grounds of our relative mental health or lack of it. Now THAT'S a debate!!
How would that differ from what goes on here every day.
Knute crossed the line and for that he was suspended.
End of story!
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So if I got this straight - - BSB can accuse Knute and me of being mentally ill and therefore of no significance, but Knute can't accuse BSB of being physically disabled.
Yeah, I get it. Fair. Equitable. Reasonable.
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So if I got this straight - - BSB can accuse Knute and me of being mentally ill and therefore of no significance, but Knute can't accuse BSB of being physically disabled.
Yeah, I get it. Fair. Equitable. Reasonable.
Dave and I have not had the smoothest of relationships to say the least, but I will not stand by and have his war injuries mocked.
The line was crossed.
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Don't pay any attention to the snowblower and nutey. They're just depressed people with nothing to add.
What you have, crip?
Knute will be taking a minimum 1 month time out for that tasteless remark.
Glad to hear it. That was way over the top.
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So if I got this straight - - BSB can accuse Knute and me of being mentally ill and therefore of no significance, but Knute can't accuse BSB of being physically disabled.
Yeah, I get it. Fair. Equitable. Reasonable.
Not in this case, Tee. BSB was cracking a joke, but the reply by Knute was a well-pointed and deliberate attack.
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I really don't give a shit either way but it comes back to something I said way back when - - either enforce the standards equally across the board - - or let it be no-holds-barred, anything goes. That crap about "war injuries" cuts no ice with me - - it was a criminal war and whoever participated got what they deserved. They dealt out a lot worse to millions of Vietnamese women, children and elderly. BSB doesn't deserve special immunity IMHO any more than he deserves to be singled out and punished. If he wants to insult me and Knute, that's his right and his privilege and God bless him. We're not complaining. We're all adults, and as the saying goes, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. BT has taken on an absolutely impossible job when it comes to enforcing standards here. Nobody's gonna be happy with any decision he makes. It is just irritating some people for no reason.
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michael i must agree with bt
if someone's war injuries are mocked
that would cross the lines of decency
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I can't think of a reason why war injuries are different from any other non-self-inflicted injuries.
But I agree that no such injuries should be mocked.
Ugly tattoos, maybe.
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I really don't give a shit either way but it comes back to something I said way back when - - either enforce the standards equally across the board - - or let it be no-holds-barred, anything goes. That crap about "war injuries" cuts no ice with me - - it was a criminal war and whoever participated got what they deserved. They dealt out a lot worse to millions of Vietnamese women, children and elderly. BSB doesn't deserve special immunity IMHO any more than he deserves to be singled out and punished. If he wants to insult me and Knute, that's his right and his privilege and God bless him. We're not complaining. We're all adults, and as the saying goes, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. BT has taken on an absolutely impossible job when it comes to enforcing standards here. Nobody's gonna be happy with any decision he makes. It is just irritating some people for no reason.
One this board, on my watch, that kinda of personal insult will not stand.
I don't care whether you think it is fair or not.
Knute will remain suspended.
This is a debate club. Not a fight club.
And it will be managed as such.
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So if I got this straight - - BSB can accuse Knute and me of being mentally ill and therefore of no significance, but Knute can't accuse BSB of being physically disabled.
Yeah, I get it. Fair. Equitable. Reasonable.
Dave and I have not had the smoothest of relationships to say the least, but I will not stand by and have his war injuries mocked.
The line was crossed.
HOLY CRap..and I don't say that lightly......shouldn't say it at all...but I didn't see crip, not to mention understand it in that moment in time, wasn't focusing I guess on the Knute dude's words at the time..yikes.!!..... Damn. Sorry David.
Kick the bastard knute out for all I care.
Cindy
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Knute will be taking a minimum 1 month time out for that tasteless remark.
I'm sure that someone will miss him. Maybe.
Miss who?
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Knute will be taking a minimum 1 month time out for that tasteless remark.
I'm sure that someone will miss him. Maybe.
Miss who?
:D good one, Sirs!
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>>Miss who?<<
LOL @ sirs
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Miss who?
I was trying to be an optimist ;)
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8)
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I wasn't sure if he meant "crip" as in cripple or not. I don't think I know knute unless he is one of the old posters with a new nick. Anyway, thank you to those who had my back.
BTW, I get around pretty good for a "crip", so I don't see myself that way.
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That's good to hear, B. I know this is going to be inappropriate, being as it'll come across as piling on, but I'm going to say this, then return to normal operating procedures
Knute is the lowest form of dren, this board may have ever been exposed to. I admire Bt's desire to allow as much latitude on "debating", and how sometimes feelings get hurt, or we think we've been insulted, thus requiring a ratcheting up in providing insults back. and I confess a certain amount of condescending tone in some of my responses, but I try to catch myself, and step up to try and do better
Then there's knute, who apparently finds it impossible to "debate", and instead goes onto endless 3rd grade potty-mouth rants aimed at anything republican, conservative, or "right wing". Completely unable to provide coherent dialog without the obligatory degrading style of insults. This is supposed to be a debating forum. Knute provides little more than an endless stream of garbage level insults, capped off by his latest completely over-the-line broadside at B. BSB and I have had our not-so-great moments, and I do apologize for the times I riled him up. I seriously doubt you'll get any such revelation from the likes of knute. Instead, you'll get self proclamations of how great he sees himself at what he does
Yes, I apologise for piling on, and if I'm required to take a break, I'll accept such repercussions from my actions. I just felt compelled to say something about this.....even if it was inappropriate in doing so.
I'll keep quiet now, and go back to ignoring the class clown
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That's good to hear, B. I know this is going to be inappropriate, being as it'll come across as piling on, but I'm going to say this, then return to normal operating procedures
Knute is the lowest form of dren, this board may have ever been exposed to. I admire Bt's desire to allow as much latitude on "debating", and how sometimes feelings get hurt, or we think we've been insulted, thus requiring a ratcheting up in providing insults back. and I confess a certain amount of condescending tone in some of my responses, but I try to catch myself, and step up to try and do better
Then there's knute, who apparently finds it impossible to "debate", and instead goes onto endless 3rd grade potty-mouth rants aimed at anything republican, conservative, or "right wing". Completely unable to provide coherent dialog without the obligatory degrading style of insults. This is supposed to be a debating forum. Knute provides little more than an endless stream of garbage level insults, capped off by his latest completely over-the-line broadside at B. BSB and I have had our not-so-great moments, and I do apologize for the times I riled him up. I seriously doubt you'll get any such revelation from the likes of knute. Instead, you'll get self proclamations of how great he sees himself at what he does
Yes, I apologise for piling on, and if I'm required to take a break, I'll accept such repercussions from my actions. I just felt compelled to say something about this.....even if it was inappropriate in doing so.
I'll keep quiet now, and go back to ignoring the class clown
We all adore you, Sirs.
Knute has insulted me in the past. I just didn't care to reply. If I read half of the things he or others who have spewed their venom in my direction, I would be back to that tit for tat BS again from teh past Dead Horse Saloon, not to mention the Courttv board.....those folks were really ugly.
Knute might be someone from the x-must-pass ttt , but I am not aware of who.
Basically, I find that potty mouth as well as those who gang up on women on any board are not worth the time.
We all adore you, Sirs....ooops, I already said that.
but I wanted to sneak that one in again.
Merry Merry to you and yours, dear. Havent' read you in awhile....wanted to give you a thumbs up.
Cindy
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I wasn't sure if he meant "crip" as in cripple or not. I don't think I know knute unless he is one of the old posters with a new nick. Anyway, thank you to those who had my back.
BTW, I get around pretty good for a "crip", so I don't see myself that way.
Listen, dear man!!
YOU are NOT a cripple...Jezzus...that crips my grip to read that that's what KNut meant.
There are those who suffer from being crippled emotionally, however, eh KNute?
I happen to know you and your story.
Knutey must apologize to you for that one. Men are good at supporting one another. ...My gosh!!
You are a really awesome person, David. Hey, come over to CV and share your favorite music.
We are having a musical ball over there. ;)
You will always have my support. If there's one group of people that I support, it's the veteran. I give a lot of money to the American Vet orgs annually.
Thank you for being one of those soldiers for our freedom, Bucky.
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Bloods are the ones with the red bandannas, Crips wear the blue bandannas, as I recall.
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Bloods are the ones with the red bandannas, Crips wear the blue bandannas, as I recall.
OK...there ya go! I rest my case...
WHO KNEW
;)
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I appreciate the sentiments Miss Cynthia. Thanks. And a Merry pre-Christmas to you too (I thought I'd bold type the section of the holiday that really riles up the fringe left 8) )
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I appreciate the sentiments Miss Cynthia. Thanks. And a Merry pre-Christmas to you too (I thought I'd bold type the section of the holiday that really riles up the fringe left 8) )
GOD bless you, Gary.
Merry and Joy to you and yours.
It's the season to celebrate our Lord.
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Has anyone seen the South Park episode where Timmy and Jimmy decide to join the Crips?
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>>Basically, I find that potty mouth as well as those who gang up on women on any board are not worth the time.<<
I really have to ask you about this. Gang up on women? Are there special rules for women or is this nearly the year 2009?
Maybe you and I can take this opportunity to clear things up because I'm guessing I'm to be included in this group that "gangs up" on you. I suggest that if you don't insert yourself into a situation and throw some of your own insults into it you would be just fine. I can say the same about myself when it comes to you. There are some people here who I'm never going to be able to be cordial with, but I really don't think you are one of them.
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Don't pay any attention to the snowblower and nutey. They're just depressed people with nothing to add.
What you have, crip?
Knute will be taking a minimum 1 month time out for that tasteless remark.
Dang.
Now whose job is it to mark the lower edge ?
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Dang.
Now whose job is it to mark the lower edge ?
Don't know, but i suspect people will try hard not to be the one.
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>>Basically, I find that potty mouth as well as those who gang up on women on any board are not worth the time.<<
I really have to ask you about this. Gang up on women? Are there special rules for women or is this nearly the year 2009?
Maybe you and I can take this opportunity to clear things up because I'm guessing I'm to be included in this group that "gangs up" on you. I suggest that if you don't insert yourself into a situation and throw some of your own insults into it you would be just fine. I can say the same about myself when it comes to you. There are some people here who I'm never going to be able to be cordial with, but I really don't think you are one of them.
Thanks, Richpo.
I call the offer of the hand.
There is only one person from Xmas past within these walls with whom I will sadly never be able to make even the slightest convo ...(BT...no hon, it aint you;)
and yes, ----you are not he.
To hell with it. You are a good egg, Rich.
I will try to be less sensitive. It's not easy to debate in here...but I love this place. It's like a sort of virtual vacation when I have to work with children and old ladies every day....HEY>...I am one of those old ladies now...that excuse can't fly anymore.
:D
Basically, I am really now getting to understand who you really are.
More later,
Cindy
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This is a debate club. Not a fight club.
And it will be managed as such>>
Sure - - a debate club where one of the debaters can land a few below the belt and retreat back under the cover of a shield which protects him from any comparable retaliation by any member who wants to stoop to his level.
Maybe in a crazy way, it makes some kind of sense. We'll keep the debate civil and those of us who incur the wrath of our most privileged member will just have to cut him some slack. A lesson in forbearance, so to speak. Speaking for myself, I'm sure I could use one, as could some of our other members. What point is ever served by descending into flame war anyway?
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Had to add more. Re read, please.
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Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #46 on: Today at 11:31:41 PM » Quote Modify
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Quote from: Michael Tee on Today at 11:18:55 PM
This is a debate club. Not a fight club.
And it will be managed as such>>
Sure - - a debate club where one of the debaters can land a few below the belt and retreat back under the cover of a shield which protects him from any comparable retaliation by any member who wants to stoop to his level.
Maybe in a crazy way, it makes some kind of sense. We'll keep the debate civil and those of us who incur the wrath of our most privileged member will just have to cut him some slack. A lesson in forbearance, so to speak. Speaking for myself, I'm sure I could use one, as could some of our other members. What point is ever served by descending into flame war anyway?
Mtee...sometimes you don't see the forest in your own woodland.
You come across hating America. You do. I am not one to bash you. I like your style, but when you focus more on the fact that Americans aren't "with it" or that we lack in some way or another...especially to those who have FOUGHT for this country....that flies in the face. Come on...human beings aren't supposed to agree with every darn thing we spill out in this world...let alone this board.
I think you have a lot of good ideas as well as basic humanity threads throughout your veins.
But, all in all..for some....It's not easy to hear your charming "Canandian way". Down and dirty is what is needed when you enter the field of the soldier. You can't expect one to suddenly accept your ideals.
I am not saying you are less valuable in the debate room. I am saying that there are folks in here who aren't going to be able to "logically' hear you out when you tend to run down the average Joe American.
Just a thought. You have every right to your opinions. I have agreed with some of those opinions, but men are funny that way. You can't expect to make nice- nice with a man who isn't that "into you".
In fact, that man would rather spit in your eye than to make nice when you come across with such anti-american sentiment.
Just a thought, mind you....This board is just that a magical message board with made up people and real folks.
With heart felt sentiments and real life intelligence.
With egos that hide behind the curtain, and politicians who rule their planet a bit more than they should.
It's a place to breathe. It's a place to tread lightly.....lest you go steady with the members in charge.
No one in here is going to end up virtually touching base or making that final point because it's
a place for thought and print.....a living book room, an interactive diary....and most of all.....a place for one to rest in the sun .
We are fortunate to be able to make this our place for voicing opinions and such.
But we aint gunna make nice with anyone on a minute/daily basis.
Don't expect something in here. . especially when you are expecting something in here.
Cindy
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Cindy, I write things as I see them and I see a lot of bad stuff regarding America. Like any country, America is a mixture of good and bad, but I don't see any point, when so much evil is being worked around the world by America, in focusing on all the good in your country. That is NOT what people need to hear now because it is seized upon in justification of some of the most evil and horrific things going on as we speak.
America needs to change. Whethe Obama will change anything remains to be seen, but I am getting a sick feeling in my gut that the changes will be superficial and/or minimal.
The world is full of fucking morons, even here in this group and maybe even moreso here in this group, but I certainly don't write in the hopes that millions will suddenly have a "Eureka!" moment and say "Hey maybe this guy's on to something." I write to put my views out before others and what those others do with them is up to them, not up to me. I'm glad I say what I have to say, and - - credit where credit's due - - glad I CAN say what I have to say.
One final word - - nothing I write here is original - - it's all been researched and said before, by individuals such as C. Wright Mills, Karl Marx, Noam Chomsky, Edwin Said, Naomi Klein, Gabriel Kolko, Paul Craig Roberts and many others. One of the reasons I post in this group is the abysmal ignorance and freakishly distorted view of American and world history that I find here. It's obvious that virtually none of the posters in this group have even the barest familiarity with the works of any of these fine writers, journalists and philosophers.
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<<It's obvious that virtually none of the posters in this group have even the barest familiarity with the works of any of these fine writers, journalists and philosophers.>>
A particularly dumb-ass statement that I can't go to sleep with without modifying it. Obviously, _JS, Brass, XO, Prince, Lanya and others (my apologies to any left off this list) DO have a knowledge, and more than a passing one, with the POVs that I referenced.
Sorry, guys.
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>>Cindy, I write things as I see them..<<
>>One final word - - nothing I write here is original - -<<
Yeh, you're a real genius.
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Maybe in a crazy way, it makes some kind of sense. We'll keep the debate civil and those of us who incur the wrath of our most privileged member will just have to cut him some slack. A lesson in forbearance, so to speak. Speaking for myself, I'm sure I could use one, as could some of our other members. What point is ever served by descending into flame war anyway?
I'm glad you are beginning to understand.
What you don't understand is that if Knute aimed the same barbs at other members of this forum with known infirmities he would be just as gone. Because his attack was personal, it was vengeful and it was mean spirited. We don't do that. And we won't do that. And he can no longer do that, for as long as he is suspended.
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Oh....Mtee, Mtee....where do I begin.
Researched based writers? What is bad about America?
I don't see any point, when so much evil is being worked around the world by America, in focusing on all the good in your country. That is NOT what people need to hear now because it is seized upon in justification of some of the most evil and horrific things going on as we speak.
MY GOD, man....SO MUCH EVIL? SO much??? Can you not even begin to see anything good from America? ARe we Hitler's Germany in your view? WOw....HORRIFIC? What is more horrific than flying planes into building with innocent human beings going about their daily work.and they weren't even ALL AMERICANS? What do you understand about evil? You're kidding me. Come on, dude. Justification? Ok, so Bush was an idiot. But, Saddam cut off women's fingers if they chose to wear nail polish. HE chemically burned babies for FUCKING SAKE.
HOrrific??
The world is full of fucking morons, even here in this group and maybe even moreso here in this group, but I certainly don't write in the hopes that millions will suddenly have a "Eureka!" moment and say "Hey maybe this guy's on to something." I write to put my views out before others and what those others do with them is up to them, not up to me. I'm glad I say what I have to say, and - - credit where credit's due - - glad I CAN say what I have to say.
What views do you really want us to read OUT THERE? What? YOu have a freedom to spell out anything you want, but dude you are a maniac. What? credit due? You have put your ideas out there. Sure there are greedy bastards in our nation. Sure....but you have no freaking idea what it means to be an American. We are not all walking dead wall street fat cats. You smack us all in the face....from me, Irish decent (father couldn't date the woman he wanted to because he was IRISH?? gezzzzus).
Hate? Prejudice? Give me a break. No one in this world is without sorrow and the butt of joke or hatred.
Yet, you think we are so arrogant that you can blanketly hate us all?
Damn man...this is a huge nation. Native Americans live in my world. I teach them daily...You want to tell them that they are BAD AMERICANS.....Screw you!
Ok...bordering on a bit of pissiness here. sorry....but MTEE...come on.
One final word - - nothing I write here is original - - it's all been researched and said before, by individuals such as C. Wright Mills, Karl Marx, Noam Chomsky, Edwin Said, Naomi Klein, Gabriel Kolko, Paul Craig Roberts and many others. One of the reasons I post in this group is the abysmal ignorance and freakishly distorted view of American and world history that I find here. It's obvious that virtually none of the posters in this group have even the barest familiarity with the works of any of these fine writers, journalists and philosophers.
Now, that's just plain silly. Chomsky? Marx? You doth project your own ignorance and freakishly distorted view way too much, Micky ....you do.
There are a hell of a lot of FINE WRITERS in this world....give me a break. You quote those who are narrow in the order of the world view. To fall on point of projected venom against this nation, you have chosen authors, alone? What about the hard working people who worked this soil, built those forts and suffered to build a life on this soil? DO you know America? Do you know Americans in total?
Philosophers, journalists? ---a dime a dozen in the grand scheme of things.
You are limited in scope when it comes to teh grand arena of what is knowledge and freedom, lust for change, and willingness for risk and reform. For the sake of God, step off of your mini pedestal and embrace what it means to be an American. I live in New Mexico, so don't think that to be an American means white male society. Do you understand the bigger picture other than this philosophically and polically sick target that you pronounce in each and every post? You are stuck in the world of rhetoric--- based on something I fail to understand. We are not that simple as Americans We are vastly rich in the history of this planet ..this new world. Why can't you open your mind to that? Why narrow your scope to the mindset that stems from some sort of bitterness against FREEDOM and plenty? I would never want to live in a society where we don't have rules and regs. . . guidelines and accountability.
You quote "fine writers"...but you don't see that perhaps they might just be in this world of FINE... for the sake of being called a good writer .....by someone like you.
DO you write for a living? Are you willing to go through the process of re-inventing the world order according to your prescription of communism? If you are, then go for it. Otherwise, open you mind to what else is out there, MTee. There is more to the world than old school socialism/communism.
There's a chance for this world to improve....if we don't take that chance, then we are doomed to die.
Perhaps you have an issue that reaches deep in your inner soul that causes you to hold SUCH DISDAIN for America. . . . again and again, I hear such a tone in your posts.
Move on, dude. Move on.
Times will change...they are a changin all the time.
If we lived in your world....which I am glad we do not....we would not be so very happy.
You want happiness, do you not?
So, look outward to the future of a new world order...but keep Chomsky out of it, please...and for damn sure-Marx.
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Maybe in a crazy way, it makes some kind of sense. We'll keep the debate civil and those of us who incur the wrath of our most privileged member will just have to cut him some slack. A lesson in forbearance, so to speak. Speaking for myself, I'm sure I could use one, as could some of our other members. What point is ever served by descending into flame war anyway?
I'm glad you are beginning to understand.
What you don't understand is that if Knute aimed the same barbs at other members of this forum with known infirmities he would be just as gone. Because his attack was personal, it was vengeful and it was mean spirited. We don't do that. And we won't do that. And he can no longer do that, for as long as he is suspended.
God love ya, Bill...damn you are like cream..you rise to the top.
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So, look outward to the future of a new world order...but keep Chomsky out of it, please...and for damn sure-Marx.
===============================================
Why keep Chomsky or Marx out of any discussion? Chomsky is merely a guy with a great sense of perception who has an uncanny ability to see behind the curtain to the bungling Wizards of Oz as they carry out their pitiful attempts to pull the levers, fool the populace, loot their money and force them to work for a pittance.
Why not take into consideration that Marx was one of rthe most astute observers of the pitfalls of Capitalism to date? Marx was wrong about how to rebuild the system, but when it comes to an analysis of how the laws of supply and demand and how economy of scale can be manipulated to benefit the very few rather than the very may that must labor for it, Marx is right on the money.
Sure, Communism as developed in the USSR did not work anywhere as well as planned, though probably better than the Tsar would have done. Cuba does not work, but probably better than another four or five Batistas. But neither does unregulated capitalism work. Ayn Rand was even fuller of bull than Stalin or Fidel. But I don't think she should be ignored , either. Read We the Living, before she became an obsessive jerk, and you will find excellence in her writing.
On the other hand, a knowledge of how capitalism can be manipulated just as we manipulate the law of gravity and the use of levers and gears, well, that DOES work. Denmark has abolished poverty. the PRC has maintained a growth rate of above 10% annually for longer than any capitalist economy in the history of mankind. So a combination of the principles of Socialism and Capitalism can and does work. I would prefer Denmark to the PRC any day, by the way.
Ignore Chomsky and Marx at your peril. The same is true of Alan Greenspan.
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>>Ignore Chomsky and Marx at your peril.<<
I haven't ignored them. I've read them, and dismissed them. Chomsky in particular. An old crank with mother issues. Marx has been proven wrong in real time. Even countries still following at least some of Marx's philosophy, are moving toward capitalism. China is the prime example. Those countries that are still communist can't even feed their own people and they attempt escape whenever the opportunity presents itself.
So yes, ignore Chomsky and Marx. The only people left who really believe their drivel are pimply faced college freshmen without dates for the dance.
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So yes, ignore Chomsky and Marx. The only people left who really believe their drivel are pimply faced college freshmen without dates for the dance.
Chomsky is quite popular abroad. I don't disagree with everything that he has to say, but really, he's too extreme for my taste. However, what I've found abroad is that people that read Chomsky really don't understand that for a American his point of view goes to the extremes. It just doesn't register with them because they don't have all of the references to balance it out.
But really, one of my favorite examples is when I heard someone quoting David Duke as a legitimate reference on politics. I almost choked to death. And I felt like I could try to tell that person the true David Duke background and yet it still wouldn't really register.
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So yes, ignore Chomsky and Marx. The only people left who really believe their drivel are pimply faced college freshmen without dates for the dance.
Chomsky is quite popular abroad. I don't disagree with everything that he has to say, but really, he's too extreme for my taste. However, what I've found abroad is that people that read Chomsky really don't understand that for a American his point of view goes to the extremes. It just doesn't register with them because they don't have all of the references to balance it out.
But really, one of my favorite examples is when I heard someone quoting David Duke as a legitimate reference on politics. I almost choked to death. And I felt like I could try to tell that person the true David Duke background and yet it still wouldn't really register.
That is very likely a problem in both directions , we might take seriously a leader who isn't really leading much .
Is this sort of thing more correctable in the age of internet? Is the filter letting more real data thru?
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Why not take into consideration that Marx was one of rthe most astute observers of the pitfalls of Capitalism to date? Marx was wrong about how to rebuild the system, but when it comes to an analysis of how the laws of supply and demand and how economy of scale can be manipulated to benefit the very few rather than the very may that must labor for it, Marx is right on the money.
I think that is very debatable.
Would you like to pick a favorite example of Marx being prescient or sage and start another thread?
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The answers to my last post range from the thoughtful to the ridiculous. Mostly the latter, which just proves the point I was trying to make. Once you hear Chomsky or Marx dismissed in a one-liner, it's bad enough, but when you get down to the "bad case of acne couldn't get a date to the prom" level - - you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel of ignorance and stupidity that is what makes it possible for a man like G.W. Bush to assume the leadership of the nation. Naomi Klein of course isn't even mentioned in rebuttal, maybe she didn't have a date for the prom either.
The negative responses were really pitiful, actually, but I didn't expect much better. I guess some attempt to at least follow the argument, but we get - - the Indians of New Mexico, the optimism and enthusiasm, etc., which of course no one is denying, as no one is denying the millions dead in Vietnam, the lynch mobs, the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, the ongoing attempts at subjugation. I guess if you throw a couple hundred more Indians from New Mexico into the equation, it'll all balance out. Somehow. I dunno, I keep hoping: I produce a serious response, and I get back lectures on bitterness, can't you turn that frowny frowny frown into one great big SMILE and remember the Indians of New Mexico??? Huh? Whaaa . . .?
Well, I DID try. No one can take that away from me.
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Confusion, thy name is MichaelTee.
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>>Well, I DID try. No one can take that away from me.<<
Nobody here is taking it away from you. We're Americans. We believe in free speech. Which is why I can tell you you're full of shit.
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>>Ignore Chomsky and Marx at your peril.<<
I haven't ignored them. I've read them, and dismissed them. Chomsky in particular. An old crank with mother issues. Marx has been proven wrong in real time. Even countries still following at least some of Marx's philosophy, are moving toward capitalism. China is the prime example. Those countries that are still communist can't even feed their own people and they attempt escape whenever the opportunity presents itself.
So yes, ignore Chomsky and Marx. The only people left who really believe their drivel are pimply faced college freshmen without dates for the dance.
On this we agree.
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Well, it's been hilarious, guys. Time to close off this train of thought and move on to something else. I can see we're getting nowhere, but it was kind of entertaining. If I learned anything it's that ignorance comes in many forms. Thanks.
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>>On this we agree.<<
See there!
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>>On this we agree.<<
See there!
"So yes, ignore Chomsky and Marx. The only people left who really believe their drivel are pimply faced college freshmen without dates for the dance."
Basically, this is a true statement, Richpo. So, we see some light together.....but we might not always go to such a place. ;)
It's interesting, on this board one can totally agree one minute and want to puke the next....LOL
Not about YOu....not sayin' that.
But, hey.....I have said that....oops...
anyway....I like the freedom to bitch, concur, and bitch again.
I am on VACATION NOW..FOR TWO LONG BEAUTIFUL WEEKS. Will miss my kiddos, though, but Lord, I need a break.
This NCLB act is killing us all.
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>>This NCLB act is killing us all.<<
It wasn't killing the kids back in Ohio. In fact, all the schools in the county were rated excellent. I'm not one to trash ALL public schools, some of them are very good. Unfortunately not here in Jacksonville. We send our daughter to a Catholic high school.
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>>This NCLB act is killing us all.<<
It wasn't killing the kids back in Ohio. In fact, all the schools in the county were rated excellent. I'm not one to trash ALL public schools, some of them are very good. Unfortunately not here in Jacksonville. We send our daughter to a Catholic high school.
Well, I can't go there anymore here...as Ami would find fault, but I do have to wonder why the nation's schools have yet to improve with such a FABULOUS act to get the job done.
No one wants to listen to this issue...so I withdraw my points.
But, we are not a nation of if it works for me ...by damn it should work for YOU....I walk the talk every day....have done so for 33 years.
Still have to say that since the TIMING of the Nicklebee...NCLB act, kids are receiving less and less in the arts, drama, music and cultural richness.
Too much more on this one to sound/type bite it here, Richpo..
Hot tamale? LOL YEah.
Later....
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>>Cindy, I write things as I see them..<<
>>One final word - - nothing I write here is original - -<<
Yeh, you're a real genius.
LOL....Richpo is a work in progress, Dave....'tis true.
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Well, I can't go there anymore here...as Ami would find fault, but I do have to wonder why the nation's schools have yet to improve with such a FABULOUS act to get the job done.
I only find fault with those who blame the act for all the ills in the school system and fail to blame their state and local school administration.
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I haven't ignored them. I've read them, and dismissed them. Chomsky in particular. An old crank with mother issues. Marx has been proven wrong in real time.
You simply are not capable of understanding Chomsky.
As for Marx, all you "know" is rightwing radio drivel that you regurgitate all the time.
Marx was wrong about many facts of political administration.
He was dead right about capitalism, and that is easily proven by the clothes on your back, the shoes on your feet and every Nissan, Hyundai, Honda and Toyota you see on every street: Capitalism will seek out ever cheaper locations of production, no matter what it does to the local industry or economy.
Its' not that clothes and shoes cannot be made in the USA and sold profitably. They can. But the capitalist will make the Nike for $10 in China rather than for $20 here to sell for $100, because 90% profit is better than 80%.
You have never read Marx, or understood a thing about economic theory. You are a parrot, and not to be taken seriously.
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Well, I can't go there anymore here...as Ami would find fault, but I do have to wonder why the nation's schools have yet to improve with such a FABULOUS act to get the job done.
I only find fault with those who blame the act for all the ills in the school system and fail to blame their state and local school administration.
WEll, tis true that the act itself does not state specifically how the States should punish, or which programs districts should implement, etc ------but I still believe the NCLB act to be partially responsible for the worst spin out we have ever seen as educators. Many successful schools and districts have been negatively affected. They were doing just fine .....more than just fine--- before the NCLB act came to the hill.
It's the students who have been negatively affected overall, but people don't care to hear that. They want to rest on the fact that the NCLB act did nothing wrong. So there.... ::) ....
The ACT "acts like" a president who calls a war against another nation without a real plan to support said war,and without adequate support for the troops.
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>>LOL....Richpo is a work in progress, Dave....'tis true.<<
This is the sort of thing that gets you in trouble.
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>>You simply are not capable of understanding Chomsky.<<
That's probably true. You would have to have the same self loathing and mother issues as he does in order to make heads or tails out of such drivel. Which is why you have such intricate knowledge of all things Chomsky. Looks like mommy didn't hug you enough either.
Then there's Marx. Once again, you have the same class envy as he. Both of you will end up on the trash heap of history where you belong. People will remember Marx. Nobody will remember you.
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>>LOL....Richpo is a work in progress, Dave....'tis true.<<
This is the sort of thing that gets you in trouble.
LOL, I thought that was a compliment. You do have a side to you, dear that can make folks cringe, but hey....you are improving there, aren't you?
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No, I think making some people cringe is a good thing. I don't think I need any improvement when it comes to telling leftwing socialist/communists off. Don't they make you cringe? You don't seem to have a problem telling people off. Are you a work in progress? Should we start a thread to discuss you?
Making comments about other people on this board is a sure way to get into trouble. It's best not to act as if you some kind of a saint passing judgement.
Understand?
Peace.
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No, I think making some people cringe is a good thing. I don't think I need any improvement when it comes to telling leftwing socialist/communists off. Don't they make you cringe? You don't seem to have a problem telling people off. Are you a work in progress? Should we start a thread to discuss you?
Making comments about other people on this board is a sure way to get into trouble. It's best not to act as if you some kind of a saint passing judgement.
Understand?
Peace.
I feel for you, I do. You have such a touchy nature.
I'll refrain from comment, as it will only cause you to spin out.
Someday you need to read your posts in terms of the effect you have on others which causes them to 'cringe', Rich.
We are allowed to cringe when you post, eh? People cringe for different reasons, I might add.
I believe I have the right to speak, and to be a saint. ;D
Peace out!
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>>Cindy, I write things as I see them..<<
>>One final word - - nothing I write here is original - -<<
Yeh, you're a real genius.
I'm Pretty sure BSB was referring to Mikey.
How Rich got drawn into that, i don't know.
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>>How Rich got drawn into that, i don't know.<<
Exactly. I followed the thread back to try and find out, to no avail.
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I think between the two of us it's just been proven who has the touchy nature.
I meant it in the spirit of reconciliation.
Nuff said.
[note to moderators: For some reason the word proven doesn't register spell check. It's weird.]
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Regarding Reply #77
Yeah, those are quotes from a post by Michael T. On the one hand he says he calls things as he sees them, on the other hand he says nothing he posts is original.
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This is your problem Michael T.
While I agree with you that much of the current administrations public parseing on what is torture, and what isn't, is highly regreatful. And, while I agree with you that what took place at Gitmo, and at prisons in Iraq, and Afghanistan, is also highly regreatful. The difference is I don't therefore wish death and distruction on the American people, or any other people. You, on the other hand, are vengeful. That brings into question your take on world events.
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I think between the two of us it's just been proven who has the touchy nature.
I meant it in the spirit of reconciliation.
Nuff said.
[note to moderators: For some reason the word proven doesn't register spell check. It's weird.]
Well, I am touchy, but that was the point.....we are just touchy in different ways, Rich.
Merry, Merry.
Peace out.
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The answers to my last post range from the thoughtful to the ridiculous. Mostly the latter, which just proves the point I was trying to make. Once you hear Chomsky or Marx dismissed in a one-liner, it's bad enough, but when you get down to the "bad case of acne couldn't get a date to the prom" level - - you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel of ignorance and stupidity that is what makes it possible for a man like G.W. Bush to assume the leadership of the nation. Naomi Klein of course isn't even mentioned in rebuttal, maybe she didn't have a date for the prom either.
The negative responses were really pitiful, actually, but I didn't expect much better. I guess some attempt to at least follow the argument, but we get - - the Indians of New Mexico, the optimism and enthusiasm, etc., which of course no one is denying, as no one is denying the millions dead in Vietnam, the lynch mobs, the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, the ongoing attempts at subjugation. I guess if you throw a couple hundred more Indians from New Mexico into the equation, it'll all balance out. Somehow. I dunno, I keep hoping: I produce a serious response, and I get back lectures on bitterness, can't you turn that frowny frowny frown into one great big SMILE and remember the Indians of New Mexico??? Huh? Whaaa . . .?
Well, I DID try. No one can take that away from me.
Ok , I will deny that hundreds of thousands of Iriquis have been killed, though thousands certainly have.
Many of those were of course the ones we intended to kill.
The subjugation of Iraq was Saddams business and Iraq was subjugated quite well, the liberation of Iraq is more like what we want , and we have struggled heroicly getting it done.
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He was dead right about capitalism, and that is easily proven by the clothes on your back, the shoes on your feet and every Nissan, Hyundai, Honda and Toyota you see on every street: Capitalism will seek out ever cheaper locations of production, no matter what it does to the local industry or economy.
Its' not that clothes and shoes cannot be made in the USA and sold profitably. They can. But the capitalist will make the Nike for $10 in China rather than for $20 here to sell for $100, because 90% profit is better than 80%.
Objectively , isn't it true that 90% profit is better than 80% profit? The more purely the market operates the further the wealth will be spread, a skilled worker anywhere should have the chance to sell his efforts and participate in the creation of wealth.
BTW who is getting 90% profits on anything?
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<<Yeah, those are quotes from a post by Michael T. On the one hand he says he calls things as he sees them, on the other hand he says nothing he posts is original. >>
Seemed clear enough to me when I typed it - - I call things as I see them, and I'm not the only one who sees them and calls them the same way. To most of the world's inhabitants, with the exception of brainwashed Americans (and even a minority within them) what I see and what I say is pretty damn obvious whether the right-wing morons who find it all so objectionable like it or not.
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<<While I agree with you that much of the current administrations public parseing on what is torture, and what isn't, is highly regreatful. And, while I agree with you that what took place at Gitmo, and at prisons in Iraq, and Afghanistan, is also highly regreatful. The difference is I don't therefore wish death and distruction on the American people, or any other people. You, on the other hand, are vengeful. That brings into question your take on world events. >>
The torture is the tip of the iceberg. The millions of dead, from Viet Nam to Indonesia to Latin America to Iraq AND the torture are a heavy load of unavenged atrocities that cries out for retribution. If America punished its own criminals there would be no world sense that a huge crime or series of crimes requires payback of one kind or another. The American people are no more or less deserving of massive retaliatory payback than the citizens of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, but both were subjects of regimes that committed unspeakable atrocities and made no effort to punish their own guilty. Token prosecutions of low-ranking nonentities aside.
What you are lacking is a sense of outrage. "Highly regretful" is a ludicrous way of describing America's crimes. "Regretful" or "regrettable" doesn't begin to cover it and you probably know better. Whether or not the American people "deserve" actual punishment of some horrific nuclear catastrophe is debateable as I indicated before, but to put the idea before people is to at least indicate the scope of the atrocities - - which Americans are either denying completely, meretriciously rationalizing, or minimizing. There are enormous wrongs extant and on-going, which deserve active war-crimes prosecutions (at the very highest levels) and massive amends and reparations. Instead of which, you see this right-wing fascist shit proceeding in sheer ignorance of the facts to assert that nothing much has gone wrong (apart from the inevitable "mistakes" that America makes, which they are gracious enough to admit - - the old "We're not perfect" excuse which any fucking Nazi apologist would be familiar with.)
My feeling on payback is this: ideally it should fall on the perpetrators themselves, but when it doesn't, it's worse for the crimes to go unavenged than for some type of cosmic retribution to fall on the nation, on the guilty and innocent alike. It is only when mankind becomes accustomed to the idea that all wrongful actions WILL bring retribution, collective or individual, that the kind of behaviour which characterized the Bush administration will gradually become a thing of the past. Unavenged crimes just encourage more of the same.
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<<Ok , I will deny that hundreds of thousands of Iriquis have been killed, though thousands certainly have.>>
I believe hundreds of thousands were killed.
<<Many of those were of course the ones we intended to kill.>>
You had no right to kill ANY of them.
<<The subjugation of Iraq was Saddams business and Iraq was subjugated quite well, the liberation of Iraq is more like what we want , and we have struggled heroicly getting it done.>>
Bullshit.
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Regarding Reply #86
Boy, that's a sad post.
Tell you what Michael, lets follow your prescription and we'll consider the bombing of Japan as retaliatory payback for what they did to the Chinese. We'll consider the destruction of Iraq as retaliatory payback for their allowing a madman to run wild through the middle east. And we'll consider the war in Vietnam retaliatory payback for an event understood only by the Buddha.
You got BIG problems when it comes to reasoning, Mr. Tee.
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I probably DO have big problems with regard to reasoning, BSB, because nothing in your last post made any sense to me at all.
I'm a simple guy, I start with a simple problem - - the blood and death and torture and rape wreaked by the U.S.A. And I ask a simple question: who pays for all this shit?
Well, it sure as hell ain't me. Who do YOU think pays for it?
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Couldn't follow my post huh? Wow.
Well, you can sleep soundly, Michael, knowing you aren't the first homicidal maniac who tried to hide behind the mantra of bringing peace and light to the world.
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<<While I agree with you that much of the current administrations public parseing on what is torture, and what isn't, is highly regreatful. And, while I agree with you that what took place at Gitmo, and at prisons in Iraq, and Afghanistan, is also highly regreatful. The difference is I don't therefore wish death and distruction on the American people, or any other people. You, on the other hand, are vengeful. That brings into question your take on world events. >>
The torture is the tip of the iceberg. The millions of dead, from Viet Nam to Indonesia to Latin America to Iraq AND the torture are a heavy load of unavenged atrocities that cries out for retribution. If America punished its own criminals there would be no world sense that a huge crime or series of crimes requires payback of one kind or another. The American people are no more or less deserving of massive retaliatory payback than the citizens of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, but both were subjects of regimes that committed unspeakable atrocities and made no effort to punish their own guilty. Token prosecutions of low-ranking nonentities aside.
What you are lacking is a sense of outrage. "Highly regretful" is a ludicrous way of describing America's crimes. "Regretful" or "regrettable" doesn't begin to cover it and you probably know better. Whether or not the American people "deserve" actual punishment of some horrific nuclear catastrophe is debateable as I indicated before, but to put the idea before people is to at least indicate the scope of the atrocities - - which Americans are either denying completely, meretriciously rationalizing, or minimizing. There are enormous wrongs extant and on-going, which deserve active war-crimes prosecutions (at the very highest levels) and massive amends and reparations. Instead of which, you see this right-wing fascist shit proceeding in sheer ignorance of the facts to assert that nothing much has gone wrong (apart from the inevitable "mistakes" that America makes, which they are gracious enough to admit - - the old "We're not perfect" excuse which any fucking Nazi apologist would be familiar with.)
My feeling on payback is this: ideally it should fall on the perpetrators themselves, but when it doesn't, it's worse for the crimes to go unavenged than for some type of cosmic retribution to fall on the nation, on the guilty and innocent alike. It is only when mankind becomes accustomed to the idea that all wrongful actions WILL bring retribution, collective or individual, that the kind of behaviour which characterized the Bush administration will gradually become a thing of the past. Unavenged crimes just encourage more of the same.
IN all History , what nation has been more just than the USA?
I will not accept as an answer a nation that simply remained uninvolved , to witness evil and do nothing is not innocence , especially for the strong.
The USA has always had a strong isolationist faction , with such worthys as Washington and Lindburg counceling uninvlvement .
But if the isolationists always won the Natzis , Imperialists or Communists would also be winners as they proceeded unimpeded to dominate the world they would make .
Through both Hard and soft Power the world is being made in the image of the USA, a place where diversity is tolerated. This is a good thing.
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<<Well, you can sleep soundly, Michael, knowing you aren't the first homicidal maniac who tried to hide behind the mantra of bringing peace and light to the world.>>
Thanks, BSB, I feel better already. Were any of the others Canadians?
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plane, I'm not gonna answer any of the questions in your last post, simply because it's all distractionary irrelevance.
I think you oughtta focus a little less on "all of recorded history" and the search for other nations of purportedly greater benevolence and stuff like that and just try to live a little more in the present and the recent (i.e., post-WWII) history because in international affairs, that is all that is really meaningful to the rest of the world. (Domestically, I don't see how you can separate out the longer view from the present, at least in terms of race relations.) But in international affairs, most Third World people living today have reason to hate America because of what happened to them and/or their parents and/or grandparents because of the U.S.A. The longer view of what good the U.S. did in fighting a Civil War over slavery or whatever other real or imaginary good deeds you have reference to does not have the immediacy of a family napalmed, a relative tortured to death, a 40-year military occupation, three generations of life in poverty because of Third World "Development Loans" and other scams, invasions, land grabs, etc. People whose families were tortured to death by death squads in Guatemala or by the army in Chile or Argentina don't give a shit about the Green Revolution or even Omaha Beach.
I think you have an idealized concept of the U.S.A. and whenever challenged you fall back on, "We made mistakes, what other nation didn't?" or "We tried too hard to do good," completely mischaracterizing your efforts at world domination or the suppression of national liberation movements as misguided attempts to do good rather than naked imperialism.
In a nutshell, you are using a fictionalized, unrealistic and long-outdated model of a "good U.S.A." that never was in order to avoid looking at the actual, real history of your country.
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>>Were any of the others Canadians?<<
No, even homicidal maniacs have to walk through life, not around it, to leave any footprints. No one would know if Canada suddenly fell off the edge of the earth.
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<<No one would know if Canada suddenly fell off the edge of the earth.>>
Pathetic standard, even for you. Care to predict world reaction if it was YOUR country that suddenly fell over the edge?
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<<No one would know if Canada suddenly fell off the edge of the earth.>>
Pathetic standard, even for you. Care to predict world reaction if it was YOUR country that suddenly fell over the edge?
Now that is a good question.
I think someone like Saddam or Napolion would have a good chance to run the whole show .
National tecnical means are getting better all the time the ability to resist a despot is being reduced by tecnology.
If there were no organised force in favor of the people, a strongmans government might last forever.
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If there were no organised force in favor of the people, a strongmans government might last forever.
The scary part is that neither the Republicans nor the Democrats seem to want to be that organized force.
The local traffic authority just made two lanes of US I-95 into a toll highway, with a toll of 25 cents to $6.25 for 7 miles. There were no elections on the plan, nor were the authorities elected by anyone. They call this "giving the drivers a choice" of paying extra to spend less time in traffic. There are cameras photographing every plate than goes through the entrance. To use it, you need a transponder, which is registered to your name.
So they know where you are going, and when you are going, and charge you for supplying the information.
I'm sure there is scarier stuff than this, but neither party seems to give a damn.
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Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I must have missed this the first time around...
There were no elections on the plan, nor were the authorities elected by anyone. They call this "giving the drivers a choice" of paying extra to spend less time in traffic.
This project was bid on by your state government (elected officials or appointed by elected officials) and the Federal government is funding a large part of it.
I'm guessing you didn't go to any of the numerous public hearings, meetings, and workshops (http://www.95express.com/public.shtm) on the subject...
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Holding a public hearing is NOT letting the public decide. I heard about the hearings, but according to the newspaper, no changes suggested by those attended were made.
None of the people planning this at MDX were elected by anyone. The fact that they were appinted by elected people is irrelevant, as the issue was unmentioned in any election.
On the other hand, they added two lanes in each direction, and traffic in the free lanes is usually faster than it was before. Putting the through traffic in the fast lanes apparently kept the same people from weaving and bobbing in and out of lanes.
Of course, they did not need to put a toll on anything to divide the through lanes from the local ones.
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Of course, they did not need to put a toll on anything to divide the through lanes from the local ones.
They could have used a tax, but a tax would tax a lot of people who don't need that particular road.
Haveing te work paid for just by the people who will benefit is wrong?
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<<Sorry for the thread necromancy . . . >>
IIRC, "necromancy" means magic or sorcery. Did you mean "necrophilia," a love of, or attraction to, things that are dead?
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IIRC, "necromancy" means magic or sorcery. Did you mean "necrophilia," a love of, or attraction to, things that are dead?
thread necromancy noun
1. The act of posting in a thread on an Internet Forum, that is already considered dead, and out of discussion.
Comes from the word thread, the flow of a discussion in a forum, and the word necromancy, the raising of the dead.
http://www.allwords.com/word-thread+necromancy.html (http://www.allwords.com/word-thread+necromancy.html)
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Thanks, Ami, learned a couple of things I didn't know. Shoulda looked up "necromancy" before posting, but I didn't think I needed to.
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Zombie thread?