A Winter Soldier's Tale - WARNING! some graphic video shots - disturbing

[Michael Tee]

from the Wikipedia article on the Great Chinese Famine -

<<Until the early 1980s, the Chinese Government's stance, reflected by the name "Three Years of Natural Disasters", was that the famine was largely a result of a series of natural disasters compounded by some planning errors. Researchers outside China, however, generally agree that massive institutional and policy changes which accompanied the Great Leap Forward were the key factors in the famine.[1] Since the 1980s there has been greater official Chinese recognition of the importance of policy mistakes in causing the disaster, claiming that the disaster was 35% due to natural causes and 65% by mismanagement.>>

The same article also put the total at 15 million although it said the sources gave widely varying totals.

China's a big population, so "mismanagement" mistakes can take a huge toll.  However it appears that famine has finally been licked in China by the Communist government.  After milennia of famine which no government was ever able to stop, this government has stopped it.  Against the allegedly 15 million deaths caused even by mismanagement (which accounted for 65% only) one has to measure the toll that unchecked famines would have caused from 1949 to date, had it NOT been for the new regime and its ultimately successful policies.

[Plane]

Whatever happened way back when, 40 years ago, it is history and will not be repeated. If it were important to the present situation, which it isn't, you and I, not being Chinese, could not vote even if the Chinese had elections, which they don't.

So what is the point?
Could it be you are wasting electrons needlessly?

MT points out that China has been dealing with Famine for centuries , I can accept this as probly true .

In the times that were not famine the people had food , like now.

What is the diffrence between now and one of the earlyer times between one famine and another?

[Plane]

China's a big population, so "mismanagement" mistakes can take a huge toll.  However it appears that famine has finally been licked in China by the Communist government. 

By becomeing much less Communist?

 After milennia of famine which no government was ever able to stop, this government has stopped it.  Against the allegedly 15 million deaths caused even by mismanagement (which accounted for 65% only) one has to measure the toll that unchecked famines would have caused from 1949 to date, had it NOT been for the new regime and its ultimately successful policies.

Famines come and go , I don't know what will cause the next one , I can prognosticate but I can't know.

Do you know what Mao got out of those meetings with Nixon?

Fertilizer.

And some advice on where to put it.

[Michael Tee]

<<By becomeing much less Communist?>>

No, by adapting to the changing circumstances, by recognizing and effectuating the "two steps forward, one step back" principle as and when appropriate and by not giving up on the basic principle of the dictatorship of the proletariat through its vanguard, the Communist Party.  Russia lost its way, unfortunately, but better get used to this, plane:  the 21st Century belongs to China and China is Communist.

<<Do you know what Mao got out of those meetings with Nixon?   Fertilizer.>>

And that's surprising to you?  "A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with."  [Lenin]

[Plane]

<<By becomeing much less Communist?>>

No, by adapting to the changing circumstances, by recognizing and effectuating the "two steps forward, one step back" principle as and when appropriate and by not giving up on the basic principle of the dictatorship of the proletariat through its vanguard, the Communist Party.  Russia lost its way, unfortunately, but better get used to this, plane:  the 21st Century belongs to China and China is Communist.

<<Do you know what Mao got out of those meetings with Nixon?   Fertilizer.>>

And that's surprising to you?  "A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with."  [Lenin]

Lennin admitted that the Communists would never have rope makeing enough of their own?

Nixon made a deal that included several modern fertilizer plants , helping Chineese to survive is much diffrent than helping them harm us.
No I ws not surprised.

[Michael Tee]

<<Lennin admitted that the Communists would never have rope makeing enough of their own?>>

I didn't see that.  Big mistake in any event, because there's no shortage of rope in China.

<<Nixon made a deal that included several modern fertilizer plants , helping Chineese to survive is much diffrent than helping them harm us.
No I ws not surprised.>>

What surprised??  First the American missionaries bring 'em Bibles, but Nixon was a realist so he brought them bullshit you could actually see and touch - - and smell.

[Plane]

<<Lennin admitted that the Communists would never have rope makeing enough of their own?>>

I didn't see that.  Big mistake in any event, because there's no shortage of rope in China.

<<Nixon made a deal that included several modern fertilizer plants , helping Chineese to survive is much diffrent than helping them harm us.
No I ws not surprised.>>

What surprised??  First the American missionaries bring 'em Bibles, but Nixon was a realist so he brought them bullshit you could actually see and touch - - and smell.

And that was needed , the Green Revolution was not an entirely American phenominon It would not have happened without co-operative agreements like this in several nations. The leadership of India worked hard to make it happen .

But with American leadership the food production of the planet was doubbled in a decade.

The Green Revolution was the biggest event of the century but nobody died in it , it was the opposite of a war so it is forgotten.

Wars are more traumatic and easy to remember than the famine that didn't happen.

[Michael Tee]

I've got a feeling you are trying to make a point with the Green Revolution that I am just missing.  Why is the Green Revolution being brought up in this thread?  Is it to prove that America is not all bad?

Green Revolution or not, America is still pretty bad, on the whole.  I think Americans should focus a whole lot more on cleaning up their act and a whole lot less on patting themselves on the back for something they did fifty years ago.

[Plane]

I've got a feeling you are trying to make a point with the Green Revolution that I am just missing.  Why is the Green Revolution being brought up in this thread?  Is it to prove that America is not all bad?

Green Revolution or not, America is still pretty bad, on the whole.  I think Americans should focus a whole lot more on cleaning up their act and a whole lot less on patting themselves on the back for something they did fifty years ago.

In all human history there was never anything as big and good for the little guy as the green revolution.

But it was a co-operative effort of several governments and non government agencys.

It is no news at all that a billion people do not die , even if they are scheduled to die.

[Michael Tee]

As I say, time to stop patting yourselves on the back for something that happened a long time ago (if in fact it's as momentous as you claim) and focus on today's problems today;dwelling on past glories isn't the healthiest kind of attitude to have.

[Plane]

As I say, time to stop patting yourselves on the back for something that happened a long time ago (if in fact it's as momentous as you claim) and focus on today's problems today;dwelling on past glories isn't the healthiest kind of attitude to have.

IT is high time to stop thinking of Mao as if he were a saint or even above average .

Nixon bought him off , Communism was buying the rope to hang itself with , the alternative being the death of millions more Chinese.

The rule of history is the purer the Communism , the worse the famines. Bending Communist principals to allow the reemergence of landlords , financiers, entrepreneurs and millionaires has made Chinas economy grow at a great rate , much as Forest Gump ran better after his heavy braces fell off.

Look up the green Revolution for yourself , I think you will wonder how something so large and important could be accomplished so quietly.

[Michael Tee]

<<IT is high time to stop thinking of Mao as if he were a saint or even above average .>>

Chairman Mao was the Great Helmsman, he took China on a new path, the path to greatness and the path out of the slavery to Western imperialism that had kept it paralyzed and poor for a long time.

<<Nixon bought him off , Communism was buying the rope to hang itself with , the alternative being the death of millions more Chinese.>>

That's nonsense.  Nixon made some kind of typically sleazy deal with him, but he stayed on the path of communism and they've never left it.

<<The rule of history is the purer the Communism , the worse the famines.>>

Sounds more like the rule of plane to me.  Pure nonsense.

<<Bending Communist principals to allow the reemergence of landlords , financiers, entrepreneurs and millionaires has made Chinas economy grow at a great rate , much as Forest Gump ran better after his heavy braces fell off.>>

The proof of the pudding, plane - - this is China's century.

<<Look up the green Revolution for yourself >>

Thanks, I will.

<< I think you will wonder how something so large and important could be accomplished so quietly.>>

Let's wait till I look it up first, OK?

[Plane]

<<IT is high time to stop thinking of Mao as if he were a saint or even above average .>>

Chairman Mao was the Great Helmsman, he took China on a new path, the path to greatness and the path out of the slavery to Western imperialism that had kept it paralyzed and poor for a long time.

<<Nixon bought him off , Communism was buying the rope to hang itself with , the alternative being the death of millions more Chinese.>>

That's nonsense.  Nixon made some kind of typically sleazy deal with him, but he stayed on the path of communism and they've never left it.

<<The rule of history is the purer the Communism , the worse the famines.>>

Sounds more like the rule of plane to me.  Pure nonsense.

<<Bending Communist principals to allow the reemergence of landlords , financiers, entrepreneurs and millionaires has made Chinas economy grow at a great rate , much as Forest Gump ran better after his heavy braces fell off.>>

The proof of the pudding, plane - - this is China's century.

<<Look up the green Revolution for yourself >>

Thanks, I will.

<< I think you will wonder how something so large and important could be accomplished so quietly.>>

Let's wait till I look it up first, OK?

China is huge , it is the repository of much knoledge and talent , large resorces and a certain number of geniuses.

China can avoid greatness only by wasteing itself , perhaps with ignorance mismanagement and waste of resorces leading to the waste of an incredable number of human lives.

It is hard to imagine China remaining so backwards so long without Chariman Mao to implement his very stupid policys. The great helmsman put the great ship on the rocks almost immediately.

Richard Nixon made a deal that saved Mao's bacon , without this "sleezy " deal the output of those fertilizer plants would not have been availible to feed the masses people can't eat promises. But they can eat better when American advice and fertilizer raise up more rice and wheat.


Before Nixon , what did Mao ever succeed at ,other than takeing charge? Forceing people to praise himself?

[Michael Tee]

<<Before Nixon , what did Mao ever succeed at ,other than takeing charge? >>

That's kind of like asking what did George Washington ever accomplish, other than the independence of the United States of America?  FYI, "taking charge" of China and rescuing it from its long slumber was the accomplishment of the millennium.  You treat it like it was nothing more than winning a high-school ribbon for pole-vaulting.  Mao's accomplishment was a landmark in human history.

[Plane]

<<Before Nixon , what did Mao ever succeed at ,other than takeing charge? >>

That's kind of like asking what did George Washington ever accomplish, other than the independence of the United States of America?  FYI, "taking charge" of China and rescuing it from its long slumber was the accomplishment of the millennium.  You treat it like it was nothing more than winning a high-school ribbon for pole-vaulting.  Mao's accomplishment was a landmark in human history.

He took over , then ran it into a famine.

If just takeing over is such a great accomplishment, why not admire Napolion and Hitler?

N and H took over and did not cause a famine .