DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Mucho on October 21, 2006, 05:16:59 PM
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/20/AR2006102001363_pf.html
The Real 'New Iraq'
By Colbert I. King
Saturday, October 21, 2006; A19
Christians are being targeted in Iraq. It's not because they are one of the dominant groups vying to run the country. They aren't. Their clerics also are not part of Iraq's religious elite, although Christianity has deep roots in that country.
As the New York Times reported this week, since the Bush administration launched the invasion of Iraq 3 1/2 years ago, church bombings, assassinations, kidnappings and threats have become a daily part of Christian life. And the persecution of Christians began even before Pope Benedict XVI called attention to the words of a 14th-century Byzantine emperor who had some unkind things to say about Islam. Many churches in Baghdad have been forced to cancel services, the Times reports, and some have not met since.
Why? Because religion is moving front and center in Iraq, and to be a Christian in that Islamic nation has become dangerous.
But it's equally risky to be a Shiite living among Sunnis or a Sunni residing in a province dominated by Shiites. These days, if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, religion can get you kidnapped, tortured and beheaded.
If that isn't enough, toss into this cauldron Americans in military uniform, many in the flower of their youth. Most have no idea why religious extremists are tearing each other apart. Trained to fight wars and combat terrorism, American troops have instead been engaged in sweeps through Baghdad's slums in an effort to uproot religiously chauvinistic death squads hellbent on destroying each other. For rendering that service to the Iraqi people (who should be doing the job themselves), America has been paying a high price in blood and treasure, and with little apparent success.
Instead of the violence being reduced, sectarian bloodshed and attacks in Baghdad have shot up 22 percent in the past three weeks. American military fatalities are occurring at the highest rate in more than a year, reports The Post. And toward what end?
Look at the post-Saddam Hussein Iraq taking shape.
In the eyes of the Bush administration and its foreign policy allies in Washington, Iraqi reconstruction and the march toward democracy are just a matter of time. All that's needed is for the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and the Iraqi armed forces to quell the sectarian violence. Put together the right alliances and the problem is solved, they believe. They see the answer to Iraq's problems in political terms.
But there are other aspects of Iraq that bother those of us who aren't as smart as the brilliant Washington thinkers who got us where we are today.
Some of us can't forget the prewar talk about weapons of mass destruction and Saddam Hussein's partnership with al-Qaeda, and how wrong the foreign policy elite were about that.
Then there was the rosy post-Hussein world portrayed by the Bush administration, in which Iraqis, liberated from the grip of fear and imbued with a deep and abiding respect for human rights and freedom, would be busy building a better future for themselves.
Now let's return to the Christians.
From Tuesday's New York Times: "Conditions have been especially bleak for Christians in Basra, the southern city that is dominated by radical Shiite militias. Christian women there often wear Muslim head scarves to avoid harassment from religious zealots trying to impose a strict Islamic dress code." An Iraqi woman who attends the country's only Anglican church told the Times that she wears a head scarf anytime she goes outside her neighborhood. "I am afraid of being attacked," she said.
A priest was beheaded last week. A bomb blast at a Baghdad church killed two worshipers recently. From this mayhem, however, the Bush administration averts its gaze.
But the truth has been present all along for those who would dare to see it.
Within months of the U.S. invasion in 2003, The Post's Anthony Shadid and Rajiv Chandrasekaran were reporting on religious fissures in Iraq. The deepening divisions among Iraq's principal religious and ethnic groups were a regular theme in their writing.
But the White House and its cheerleaders would have had us think otherwise -- that the source of trouble was solely foreign infiltrators and remnants of Hussein's Baathist Party.
There is a new Iraq emerging before our eyes.
It is an Iraq that torments Christians, that indulges in unrelenting sectarian bloodbaths, that cheers for Hezbollah, that is no more a friend to Israel than is Iran, all despite the lies sold to the White House and Pentagon by self-serving, power-hungry Iraqi expatriates.
The new Iraq is not what George W. Bush talks about. But that's the Iraq he's got. And, worst of all, that's the Iraq we are in.
kingc@washpost.com
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When a Church was bombed in Birmingham the real culprit was JFK.
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When a Church was bombed in Birmingham the real culprit was JFK.
To paraphrase a great Dem, " I knew JFK, JFK was a friend of mine and Saddam is no JFK.
I know that doesn't have anyting to do with it . But neither did your comment have anything to do with the article.
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So the people who are responsible for a church bombing are the Church bombers?
After a while the FBI became effective at supressing the KKK and the KKK lost the affection of the people at about the same time.
In Iraq I can imagine the common man considering the Resistance in a Robin Hood or Jessie James sort of admiration , the way we used to see the KKK. That sort of admiration does not survive a lot of church bombing.
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So the people who are responsible for a church bombing are the Church bombers?
After a while the FBI became effective at supressing the KKK and the KKK lost the affection of the people at about the same time.
In Iraq I can imagine the common man considering the Resistance in a Robin Hood or Jessie James sort of admiration , the way we used to see the KKK. That sort of admiration does not survive a lot of church bombing.
In this case the church bomber was US,
I think a lot of Repubs still love the KKK. The elect enough KKK klones like Geo Allen
The people in Iraq will always look to the insurgents as Robin Hoods more than they will ever look at US that way and THAT is getting more obvious every day.
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"I think a lot of Repubs still love the KKK."
I don't think so. Back in the Early Sixtys Ronald Reagan starred in an anti Klan propaganda peice , and then when he was running for president he returned the KKKs offered endorsement with a "no thanks , and don't offer again".
The KKK still exists but untill it can recapture the hearts of the people it lives amoung it will be a stunted tree that can only grow a few nuts.
Things like the Burmingham church bombing were not just tactical mistakes for the KKK , they were self inflicted wounds that haven't healed in fourty years.
Ironicly enough one of the survivors of that bombing was Condeleeza Rice , do you suppose that she and the KKK have a cozy relationship?
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"I think a lot of Repubs still love the KKK."
I don't think so. Back in the Early Sixtys Ronald Reagan starred in an anti Klan propaganda peice , and then when he was running for president he returned the KKKs offered endorsement with a "no thanks , and don't offer again".
The KKK still exists but untill it can recapture the hearts of the people it lives amoung it will be a stunted tree that can only grow a few nuts.
Things like the Burmingham church bombing were not just tactical mistakes for the KKK , they were self inflicted wounds that haven't healed in fourty years.
Ironicly enough one of the survivors of that bombing was Condeleeza Rice , do you suppose that she and the KKK have a cozy relationship?
Ronnie made that film when he was a Dem and a union leader which was before he sold out for money, power & tax cuts.
I wouldnt write the KKK off. They still have a lot of supporters like Allen & Heston
(http://www.thenation.com/images/special/GeorgeAllenCofCC.0.jpg)
I bet those Klanners that bombed the Church are still braggin about it if they are alive.
Condiliar was not in the Church at the time, but did lose friends in it. One never knows how masochistic a House Slave and Guisling Traiter can be.
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"I think a lot of Repubs still love the KKK. The elect enough KKK klones like Geo Allen"
To think you really believe this crud is simply amazing and not rational. People do support causes, good and bad, all the time, both Democrats and Republicans, Js's leftists and UP's precious Libertarians. Party affiliation has ZIP to do with this issue. Gimme a break. Logic is not served by your statement.
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"I think a lot of Repubs still love the KKK. The elect enough KKK klones like Geo Allen"
To think you really believe this crud is simply amazing and not rational. People do support causes, good and bad, all the time, both Democrats and Republicans, Js's leftists and UP's precious Libertarians. Party affiliation has ZIP to do with this issue. Gimme a break. Logic is not served by your statement.
You have a lot of nerve lecturing me on logic, Prof, considering the moronic statements you make like dirty Mexicans cause food poisoning.
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Actually, you are in error. I posted that piece for discussion and made it clear, upon query, that I did not support that issue. Sometimes I post articles simply to stimulate discussion, e.g "DEBATEgate".
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Actually, you are in error. I posted that piece for discussion and made it clear, upon query, that I did not support that issue. Sometimes I post articles simply to stimulate discussion, e.g "DEBATEgate".
Bullshit- There was no attribution on that post. You must have written that racism. It has your blowhard stamp all over it.
http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=143.0
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I beg to differ. Here it is:
Re: I wonder if it has occurred to anyone
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2006, 10:07:12 PM »
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Just for clarification, I did not voice this opinion. I retrieved it from www.pournelle.com. Some of it I do indeed agree with; most I do not. For example, one of the reasons our great nation is so propserous is the true benefits derived from immigrants, not only their labor but their culture.
Regardless, thorough debates on issues such as immigration and its effects, both for good or ill, should be encouraged and nurtured. Do you not agree?
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I beg to differ. Here it is:
Re: I wonder if it has occurred to anyone
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2006, 10:07:12 PM »
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Just for clarification, I did not voice this opinion. I retrieved it from www.pournelle.com. Some of it I do indeed agree with; most I do not. For example, one of the reasons our great nation is so propserous is the true benefits derived from immigrants, not only their labor but their culture.
Regardless, thorough debates on issues such as immigration and its effects, both for good or ill, should be encouraged and nurtured. Do you not agree?
I dont believe it for a minute and neither did my pal, UP
>Universe Prince
Jr. Member
Posts: 79
Re: I wonder if it has occurred to anyone
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2006, 06:55:21 AM »
Quote from: The_Professor on October 02, 2006, 10:07:12 PM
Just for clarification, I did not voice this opinion. I retrieved it from www.pournelle.com. Some of it I do indeed agree with; most I do not.
Perhaps you should consider placing disclaimers like this up front.
Quote from: The_Professor on October 02, 2006, 10:07:12 PM
Regardless, thorough debates on issues such as immigration and its effects, both for good or ill, should be encouraged and nurtured. Do you not agree?
Sure. But I don't see why we need to resort to posting racist and elitist excrement in the process.<
I actually looked on that Puerile url and you would really have to look to find the shit you claim came from there. I couldnt.
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Your initial comment was that there was no attribution. I have now provided proof there was, even if it was belatedly. Why the vehemence?
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Chill K
Please ....
Listen if a real KKK officer ever showed up here I would rejoice and so should you .
Wouldn't you like to have the real Grand Dragon of the secret empire as a guest here ?
Agreeing with such a guest would not be likely for any of our present membership , but if he was polite and spoke well , picking his brains might be a lot of fun.
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Chill K
Please ....
Listen if a real KKK officer ever showed up here I would rejoice and so should you .
Wouldn't you like to have the real Grand Dragon of the secret empire as a guest here ?
Agreeing with such a guest would not be likely for any of our present membership , but if he was polite and spoke well , picking his brains might be a lot of fun.
You might enjoy bringing your GA neighbors on here, but I wouldnt cross the street to piss on him if he were. on fire. I do not enjoy observing flaming assholes at all.
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You might enjoy bringing your GA neighbors on here, but I wouldnt cross the street to piss on him if he were. on fire. I do not enjoy observing flaming assholes at all.
Be Knice Knute.
Remember Plane is the good cop.
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You might enjoy bringing your GA neighbors on here, but I wouldnt cross the street to piss on him if he were. on fire. I do not enjoy observing flaming assholes at all.
Be Knice Knute.
Remember Plane is the good cop.
I WAS nice. I like Plane . It is the unthinking racists that gall me.
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Your initial comment was that there was no attribution. I have now provided proof there was, even if it was belatedly. Why the vehemence?
THe vehemence is because what you posted was the most disgustingly racist post I have ever seen in here and that is saying a lot. If I were anhipanic and you said that to me face, I would punch your lights out and that is saying a lot since I am such a laid back guy. When yoiu post something without attribution , you make it your own and no followup weaseling makes it ant better especially after 16 posts have passed.
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It is the unthinking racists that gall me.
I think the term racist is overused in in that overusage it loses its sting.
I think the term should be used sparingly, appropriately and with evidence to back the charge.
I haven't seen TP make a racist statement in here.
Have you?
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Chill K
Please ....
Listen if a real KKK officer ever showed up here I would rejoice and so should you .
Wouldn't you like to have the real Grand Dragon of the secret empire as a guest here ?
Agreeing with such a guest would not be likely for any of our present membership , but if he was polite and spoke well , picking his brains might be a lot of fun.
You might enjoy bringing your GA neighbors on here, but I wouldnt cross the street to piss on him if he were. on fire. I do not enjoy observing flaming assholes at all.
Georgia has no more racists than the regular amount , I don't even know where you are , but I am confident that the Human beings that are your neighbors are the same sort of creature we have here.
I bet you would be pleased to pee on the guy if he were not on fire , this may be worthy of another thread so that the title can be appropriate.
I will call it , what can we tolerate?
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"THe vehemence is because what you posted was the most disgustingly racist post I have ever seen in here and that is saying a lot. "
Well, this statement was from thenoted author Jerry Pournelle. If you look him up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page, you might find he is very accomplished and not racist at all.
Here is an excerpt:
In a 1997 article Norman Spinrad wrote that Pournelle had written the SDI portion of Ronald Reagan's State of the Union Address, as part of a plan to use SDI to get more money for space exploration, exploiting the larger defence budget. [2] Pournelle wrote in response that while the Citizens’ Advisory Council on National Space Policy "wrote parts of Reagan's 1983 SDI speech, and provided much of the background for the policy, we certainly did not write the speech ... We were not trying to boost space, we were trying to win the Cold War". [3] . The Council's first report [1980] became the transition team policy paper on space for the incoming Reagan administration. The third report was certainly quoted in the Reagan "Star Wars" speech.
Pournelle opposed both Gulf Wars, maintaining that the money would be better spent developing energy technologies for the United States. He is quoted as saying "with what we spent in Iraq we could build nuclear power plants and space solar power satellites and tell the Arabs to drink their oil." His web site is critical of the Iraq War, but demands support of troops committed there. "Once you send the troops in, you have no choice but to give them what they need until you bring them home."
Pournelle is also known for his Pournelle chart, a 2-dimensional coordinate system used to distinguish political ideologies. It is similar to the Nolan chart, except that the X axis refers to your feelings toward state and centralised government (farthest right being state worship, farthest left being the idea of a state as the "ultimate evil"), and the Y axis refers to your belief that all problems in society have rational solutions. (top being complete confidence in planning, bottom being its total lack).
Pournelle has popularized a "law", which he calls Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy. This law "...states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself. Examples in education would be teachers who work and sacrifice to teach children, vs. union representatives who work to protect any teacher including the most incompetent. The Iron Law states that in all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions." His "blog", "The View from Chaos Manor", often references apparent examples of the law.
Recurrent themes
This is a list of some of Pournelle's pet themes that recur in the stories.
Welfare States become self sustaining. In fact, eventually the officials of a Welfare State, perceiving that their jobs require a supply of "clients" needing State aid, eventually become adept at making sure that there are always people in need. To do this, they either adopt policies that promote poverty and dependence, or stretch existing classifications to bring more "clients" into the Welfare system.
Building a technological society requires a strong defense and the rule of law. Even if large scale war is not a threat, many small scale conflicts can disrupt a society, especially if encouraged and supplied from outside. Even a country such as Sweden, which combines a high level of technological achievement and liberal social policies, maintains a strong military that uses Swedish-manufactured technology.
"Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it." Pournelle uses history as a source of warnings about the consequences of certain policies, and of examples of effective military organization and tactics.