Author Topic: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?  (Read 12603 times)

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fatman

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2008, 07:54:17 PM »
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My phone calls are not more important than my life

Goodie.  At what point does the constriction of your liberties become more important than your life?  Would you prefer to be a well fed, sheltered slave or a hungry, beset free man?

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but you can go on pretending we're not in the "Long War".

What the hell are you talking about?

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Because they wanted to prohibit warrantless searches

And a warrantless wiretap is a warrantless search of a telephone conversation.  It's a fishing expedition, especially if there's no cause to issue a warrant.

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My telephone privacy rights are secondary to my life.

But not to mine.  You can run around squalling about Sharia Law, Mexican Invaders, Al Qaeda douchebags, screaming about the sky is falling.  You can fall for some of that BS, to me, none of it is worth the forfeiture of my rights as a citizen.  I think that it will be funnier than hell if there's a Dem President and Dem Congess, and the first thing they do is repeal the Un-Patriot Act.

Now that would be hilarious.

BT

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2008, 08:18:55 PM »
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I think that it will be funnier than hell if there's a Dem President and Dem Congess, and the first thing they do is repeal the Un-Patriot Act.

Never happen. Government is about the consolidation of power. Once gained, it is seldom returned  by those who benefit from that power.


fatman

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2008, 08:27:17 PM »
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Never happen. Government is about the consolidation of power. Once gained, it is seldom returned  by those who benefit from that power.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!

On a more serious note, I can dream can't I?

BT

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2008, 08:42:09 PM »
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On a more serious note, I can dream can't I?

Sure. Just be prepared for the inevitable disappointment.


fatman

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2008, 09:30:16 PM »
As always.  It's the one thing that's universal to both parties, that disappointment.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2008, 10:12:20 PM »
"Goodie.  At what point does the constriction of your liberties become more important than your life?"  

When I feel the constriction matters or outweighs the threat and/or is done by unelected
leaders not trying to protect me from islamic radicals hell bent on the destruction of the United States.

"Would you prefer to be a well fed, sheltered slave or a hungry, beset free man?"

No, I would prefer to be a live American infidel in one of the greatest countries on Earth,
able to vote and attend religious services of my choice without the threat of Islamic murderers.
In my opinion "slavery and hunger" are a long way from trying to prevent IslamoNazis from attacking American cities.

"What the hell are you talking about?"

The Long War is the war we will fight against Radical Islam because the Left will not allow us to destroy an enemy,
therefore the war will stretch over decades, thus the term "The Long War". They are not going away. Some on the Left say:
"Pull out of Iraq", They still won't go away. Let them take over the entire Middle East? Let them over-run Israel? Cut and run
all you want. They still aren't going away. It's going to be a very long war.

"And a warrantless wiretap is a warrantless search of a telephone conversation"

I suppose we'll see if that holds up in court after the IslamoNazis destroy an American city.

"You can run around squalling about Sharia Law, Mexican Invaders, Al Qaeda douchebags, screaming about the sky is falling. 
You can fall for some of that BS, to me, none of it is worth the forfeiture of my rights as a citizen"


Well Fatman it's your right to have that opinion, I just disagree.

"I think that it will be funnier than hell if there's a Dem President and Dem Congess,
and the first thing they do is repeal the Un-Patriot Act"


A Democrat, and hardly a conservative, Senator Patrick Leahy co-authored the 2001 USA Patriot Act.
The Democrats currently control Congress and have not repealed the Patriot Act.
The Democrats campaigned for the 2004 mid-terms about pulling out of Iraq & they have not cut funding in a way to force an exit.
I wouldn't hold your breath only ten US Senators in the entire Democrat controlled US Senate voted against the USA Patriot Improvement And Reauthorization Act Of 2005.

"Now that would be hilarious"

I am sure Bin Laden would be pleased.



"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Universe Prince

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2008, 11:37:30 PM »

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Credit cards are more of a voluntary nature than the government wiretapping.

So is having a telephone to tap, but that isn't the point.


Not the same, unless you know of telephone companies making agreements with customers to tap the customers' telephones.


This isn't a story of government wiretapping.


True. But my overall point remains. The government trying without my permission to get information about me without my knowledge is considerably different than an exchange of information with a credit card company.


It is a story of people with access to passport data accessing passport data. Unfortunately they had no reason to access Obama's, Clinton or McCain's data, and because of that they were caught by built in safeguards in the system.


Oh well then we have nothing to worry about. There are safeguards in the system. Whew. Of course, they still accessed the data.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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fatman

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2008, 11:41:19 PM »
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When I feel the constriction matters or outweighs the threat and/or is done by unelected
leaders not trying to protect me from islamic radicals hell bent on the destruction of the United States.

And when is that point reached?  It's a lot easier to stop Government from doing something in the beginning, than when it has precedent to allow it.

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No, I would prefer to be a live American infidel in one of the greatest countries on Earth,
able to vote and attend religious services of my choice without the threat of Islamic murderers.
In my opinion "slavery and hunger" are a long way from trying to prevent IslamoNazis from attacking American cities.

A bunch of fanatics flying a plane into a building is not ample justification, in my mind, for allowing warrantless searches.  I'm sure James Madison is rolling in his grave.  When you allow the government to intrude upon your life, and your conversations, then you are setting yourself up to be a slave to said government.

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The Long War is the war we will fight against Radical Islam because the Left will not allow us to destroy an enemy,
therefore the war will stretch over decades, thus the term "The Long War". They are not going away. Some on the Left say:
"Pull out of Iraq", They still won't go away. Let them take over the entire Middle East? Let them over-run Israel? Cut and run
all you want. They still aren't going away. It's going to be a very long war.

Kind of like the "War" on Drugs, "War" on Poverty, etc?  It's going to stretch out a lot longer than decades if you seriously believe that you're going to eradicate fundamental Moslems.  There are still some sects of fundamental Christianity preaching hate in this country, should we declare war on them too?  They may not fly planes into buildings, but they enable wack jobs that would like to.  Where do you draw the line?  This "Long War" crap is just that, crap.  It sounds like a talking point made up by some slick advertiser.  BTW, 70% of the people in this country are all for ending the war.  Are they all leftists?  That would be sort of strange, since at one point 70% of people were for the war.

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I suppose we'll see if that holds up in court after the IslamoNazis destroy an American city.

Yeah, about that.  I'm still waiting for this mythical terror attack to come.  All these threat colors, no attack, what's that about?  Oh, George W (for wonderful, of course) is doing such a fine job!  In the meantime, the economy is in the outhouse, gas is through the roof, the cost of some foodstuffs have more than tripled, but hey, we're catching the "Islamonazi's" aren't we?  Any infringement on freedom to accomplish that just has to be worth the cost.

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Well Fatman it's your right to have that opinion, I just disagree.

Disagreement noted.

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A Democrat, and hardly a conservative, Senator Patrick Leahy co-authored the 2001 USA Patriot Act.
The Democrats currently control Congress and have not repealed the Patriot Act.
The Democrats campaigned for the 2004 mid-terms about pulling out of Iraq & they have not cut funding in a way to force an exit.
I wouldn't hold your breath only ten US Senators in the entire Democrat controlled US Senate voted against the USA Patriot Improvement And Reauthorization Act Of 2005.

As BT referenced above, it'll probably never be repealed.  Frankly both parties are guilty on this one, most of the Senators voting on the act never even bothered to read it.  Can you imagine what they'd say if the people didn't bother to read up on the Senator before voting for them?  It's the Peter Principle of Incompetence.

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I am sure Bin Laden would be pleased.

Am I supposed to care what Bin Laden thinks?  I don't base my beliefs on whether or not Bin Laden agrees with me or not.  That would be stupid, and unthinking.





BT

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2008, 02:21:15 AM »
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Not the same, unless you know of telephone companies making agreements with customers to tap the customers' telephones.

The telephone companies own the lines. Why would they need the permission of those who lease the lines to monitor what they own?

Universe Prince

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2008, 05:14:47 AM »

The telephone companies own the lines. Why would they need the permission of those who lease the lines to monitor what they own?


The landlord may own the apartment, but that doesn't mean he gets to secretly put a hidden camera in the bathroom. Anyway, I don't believe you've addressed the point.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Amianthus

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2008, 08:08:01 AM »
The landlord may own the apartment, but that doesn't mean he gets to secretly put a hidden camera in the bathroom. Anyway, I don't believe you've addressed the point.

Yes, but he is allowed to put a camera in the hallway and watch who comes and goes into your apartment.

And that's really what we're talking about - monitoring the call data, not listening in to the actual call. Who you called and when.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2008, 10:07:09 AM »
I'm pretty sure that the heads of the CIA and FBI aren't elected by the American people.  Nor are the technicians doing the tapping and listening.   Nor were the staffers and advisors that came up with the Un-Patriot Act.  Nor is the Attorney General.  Nor are the Federal Judges that at least used to authorize the taps.

They are all under the control of elected officials chosen by the people of the United States.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

fatman

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2008, 10:25:18 AM »
They are all under the control of elected officials chosen by the people of the United States.

They are under the nominal control of the Executive Branch, the only members of that branch that are elected are the President and the VP.  The effectiveness and influence of that control is rather variable, too variable for my taste.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2008, 10:38:18 AM »

They are under the nominal control of the Executive Branch, the only members of that branch that are elected are the President and the VP.  The effectiveness and influence of that control is rather variable, too variable for my taste.

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The current president is either a fool or a conspirator, and the VP (who has NO constitutional authority to mess with my phone calls whatever) is an evil sumbitch egomaniac who could give a sh*t about any of the people except for perhaps himself and cronies.

That is certainly not good enough for me.

There is no reason why anyone should be able to tape the phones or monitor any correspondence of any citizen without a warrant in any place called a free country.

We don't need a KGB here. If you like this, go live under Mr Putin.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Tell Me Again Why Domestic Spying is Good?
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2008, 10:46:50 AM »
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They are under the nominal control of the Executive Branch, the only members of that branch that are elected are the President and the VP.  The effectiveness and influence of that control is rather variable, too variable for my taste.

Most upper level executive branch appointments are ratified by the Senate. All elected officials.