Druggie Whitney Houston I'm sad for you....BUT

[BT]

Re in murder cases the killing of the fetus is involuntary to the mother. Regardless of her wishes.

The states sees that as an important condition.

But it would be interesting to see how the judges would rule if the murder took place at an abortion clinic in the middle of a procedure.

[sirs]

Point being that "the state" recongizes a 3rd party after a point in time that the unborn child becomes "viable".  As I said, 23weeks works for me......for now

[BT]

Point being the state does not recognize personhood in the unborn child until they reach viability . But they do have certain rights if they are wrongfully extinguished against the wishes of the mother as would be the case in murder or homicide or manslaughter.

[sirs]

Point being the state does not recognize personhood in the unborn child until they reach viability .

Umm....I think I JUST SAID THAT  "'the state' recongizes a 3rd party after a point in time that the unborn child becomes "viable.....which is as early as 23weeks   

[BT]

Point being the state does not recognize personhood in the unborn child until they reach viability .

Umm....I think I JUST SAID THAT  "'the state' recongizes a 3rd party after a point in time that the unborn child becomes "viable.....which is as early as 23weeks   

No you left out the part about some states recognize personhood at the point of conception in cases where the fetus is killed involuntarily. It's the voluntary part that matters.

[sirs]

No, you're trying to conflate 2 issues.  I'm dealing with the person, the unborn child, that "the state" recognizes he or she, as early as 23weeks.  But yes, in the murder of a pregnant woman, that "personhood" can be made at conception, although that does little for the life that was murdered, in that determination

[Plane]

   Our courtrs can't define "person" how can they define "viable"?

    Oh if only someone here understood language well enough to translate "Fetus" from the Latin.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I am a Libertarian when it comes to born human beings.

The born outrank the unborn.

I really do not give a damn about the unborn, if their mother does not want them, why should I?

[sirs]

Who said you should??   

[Plane]

I am a Libertarian when it comes to born human beings.

The born outrank the unborn.

I really do not give a damn about the unborn, if their mother does not want them, why should I?

According to "National Geographic" there are more slaves on Earth now than there was in 1850.

Are you very liberal about the rights of slave owners?

[Xavier_Onassis]

The PERCENTAGE of slaves has diminished a lot. The actual number may have increased because there and many times more people.

My opinion on slavery is entirely unrelated to my opinion on the absolute right of as woman to not have a child she does not want.

It is none of my beeswax if she wants to have the child or not. It is none of yours, or any government's, either.

Fetuses are not slaves. Get serious.

[sirs]

Not sure why you keep arguing a point that's not at issue....that of a woman having the right to have a child or not.  Of course she has that right

[BT]

Not sure why you keep arguing a point that's not at issue....that of a woman having the right to have a child or not.  Of course she has that right

So you are saying abortion is a right?

[sirs]

THAT's a different question.  The right to have or not have a child was the question at hand.  So NO, that's not what I'm saying

[Xavier_Onassis]

The right to NOT have a child, even if she is pregnant, is obviously the right to have an abortion.

How would this not be so?