DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Michael Tee on July 23, 2008, 09:04:46 AM
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and also who the media's really protecting . . .
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/22/mccain-gets-history-of-th_n_114419.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/22/mccain-gets-history-of-th_n_114419.html)
Insane either LIED or GOT VERY, VERY CONFUSED when he tried to tell CBS that the so-called "Anbar Awakening" was the result of the "surge," when in fact it had begun long before the surge began.
Also very interesting that CBS cut this confused or lying response from its broadcast of the interview. Despite the so-called media bias for Obama.
Hmmmmm.
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The "An-bar Awakening" was announced in March of 2007, and the initial talks between the group and American military was held in late November 2006. The "Iraq Surge" was announced in late 2006, and began in March 2007.
I don't see how either one could be said to have "begun long before" the other.
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Regardless of whatever competencies and doubts McCain and Obama demonstrate, I am pretty sure that there will be some sort of "debate".
By which I do not mean a real debate, just a forum where both candidates will be asked questions by a moderator, newspersons, or maybe even voters in the same place and at the same time.
Most of what is said will be irrelevant to performance as president, but it will be given great scrutiny, far beyond what should be the case on any logical planet. It would be suitable comedy, for example on the hypothetical Planet Vulcan, and on the theoretical Klingon Homeworld as well, but not because of logic there so much as a lack of dangerous weapons.
I would say that a logical president is a better choice than one who is adept at the bat'leth or the qhonDoq. But a president should be good at dealing with other humans, and most humans are not all that logical.
Would we select a better president if collegiate style debates were given, and logic was the determining factor?
Would we select a better president if they were to duke it out with bat'leths?
I am pretty sure the armed conflict would get higher ratings, but I doubt that either process will be as truly determinative as alleged. It is the importance that the public gives these events that counts.
But I am still sure that there will be "debates". Common Cause and the League of Women Voters and others will put on to much pressure for this to be avoided. The presidential "debate" has become a tradition. Any candidate who refuses will be considered a 'chicken', suitable for being rolled in the Colonel's secret spices and extra-crispy frying process.
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<<The "An-bar Awakening" was announced in March of 2007, and the initial talks between the group and American military was held in late November 2006. The "Iraq Surge" was announced in late 2006, and began in March 2007.
<<I don't see how either one could be said to have "begun long before" the other.>>
Did you read the article I linked to? I'm not going back to it, but it seemed to me that a good case was made for the fact that the surge had absolutely nothing to do with the "Anbar Awakening" and could not possibly have done so, since the phenomenon itself was mentioned, if not by name, long before the surge was even proposed. Yet McCain claimed that the surge was responsible for the AA.
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Did you read the article I linked to? I'm not going back to it, but it seemed to me that a good case was made for the fact that the surge had absolutely nothing to do with the "Anbar Awakening" and could not possibly have done so, since the phenomenon itself was mentioned, if not by name, long before the surge was even proposed. Yet McCain claimed that the surge was responsible for the AA.
Yes. Just because you rely on one (unsourced) line in that article as evidence, I do not. There are many articles online about it, and most reference the dates I mentioned. The group that claimed the name in March 2007 was formed subsequent to talks between a number of sheiks and the US military in November 2006 - which also happens to be the same time frame that the surge was being proposed.
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Here's McCain in his Katie Couric interview: <<I don't know how you respond to something that is as-- such a false depiction of what actually happened. Colonel McFarlane [phonetic] was contacted by one of the major Sunni sheiks. Because of the surge we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it began the Anbar awakening. I mean, that's just a matter of history. >>
[Col. MacFarlane is now a one-star general] from the Ackerman blog: <<Here he [MacFarlane, the very guy referred to by McCain in the Couric interview, above] is explaining what was going on to Pam Hess, then of UPI, on September 29, 2006, at least two months before Bush decided upon the surge, and about three before he announced it to the public:
<<With respect to the violence between the Sunnis and the al Qaeda -- actually, I would disagree with the assessment that the al Qaeda have the upper hand. That was true earlier this year when some of the sheikhs began to step forward and some of the insurgent groups began to fight against al Qaeda. The insurgent groups, the nationalist groups, were pretty well beaten by al Qaeda.
<<This is a different phenomena that's going on right now [Sept. 29/06]. I think that it's not so much the insurgent groups that are fighting al Qaeda, it's the -- well, it used to be the fence-sitters, the tribal leaders, are stepping forward and cooperating with the Iraqi security forces against al Qaeda, and it's had a very different result. I think al Qaeda has been pushed up against the ropes by this, and now they're finding themselves trapped between the coalition and ISF on the one side, and the people on the other. >>
So it's pretty clear to me that the so-called "Anbar Awakening" was pretty much underway before the start of the surge. McCain is full of shit claiming the surge was the reason for the "Anbar Awakening."
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Sounds as though you might be right there, Tee. But whoever started the Anbar Awakening is not an issue that is likely to garner or lose votes. Most Americans probably think the Anbar Awakening is something a harried person might eat for breakfast. Caffeine, Vitamins and Granola: "MMMmmm! It'll make your day!"
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<<Most Americans probably think the Anbar Awakening is something a harried person might eat for breakfast. Caffeine, Vitamins and Granola: "MMMmmm! It'll make your day!">>
They tried it out in focus groups, but it fell flat. Most of the Americans tested felt cheated because they were expecting a chocolate bar in the box. The Anbar.
What's gonna be really funny will be after the last G.I. leaves Baghdad (ideally on the skids of a helicopter, but I think by now they've figured out the optics of it all) when the Awakened Anbars all train their new U.S. and Israeli weapons on America's hand-picked Shi'ite puppet government and blast the living shit out of them, bringing everything back full circle to where it all started - - Sunni secular government by military dictatorship, the only thing that holds the country together whether the Iranians like it or not. Then the parents of the 4,000 dead hillbillies can scratch their collective ass and wonder, WTF was this really all for anyway? Hopefully, when someone finally grows a pair and comes looking for Bush and Cheney with an indictment, it'll be from the International Criminal Court at the Hague and the new administration will have enough respect for international law to turn the two of them and the rest of their criminal gang over for trial.
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Then the parents of the 4,000 dead hillbillies...
Do you mind? I mean, really, I can understand you don't like Americans very much - believe me, as far as I'm concerned, the feelings are reciprocated - but this is really a bunch of horseshit. I don't agree with the war in Iraq, either, but I can pretty much guarantee you that every American soldier there is there out of a sense of duty, because he believes in what he's doing. They may be misguided, and they may be wrong, but they're putting their asses on the line for something they believe in. Haven't seen you doing that much lately.
You're starting to sound as bad as Knutey.
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I don't think it is fair to refer to American soldiers as dead hillbillies, either. This war, like all wars, is a tragedy for everyone who is killed, wounded or driven from their home.
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hnumpah sez: <<Do you mind? I mean, really, I can understand you don't like Americans very much - believe me, as far as I'm concerned, the feelings are reciprocated - but this is really a bunch of horseshit. I don't agree with the war in Iraq, either, but I can pretty much guarantee you that every American soldier there is there out of a sense of duty, because he believes in what he's doing.>>
Didn't realize they were all such idealists. They sure coulda fooled me.
Sure, lumping them all together as "4,000 dead hillbillies" is grossly unfair. So's killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.
<<but I can pretty much guarantee you that every American soldier there is there out of a sense of duty, because he believes in what he's doing.>>
I don't give a shit WHAT he believes in, they've killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians they had no right to kill. They've tortured tens of thousands they had no right to torture. They invaded a sovereign state they had no right to invade. To steal oil they had no right to take. They're a bunch of fucking war criminals participating in a massive international war crime, so maybe they better find something else to believe in. How about trying to wrap their pea-sized brains around concepts like THE U.N. CHARTER and the 4TH GENEVA CONVENTION for example? I'm sick and tired of the excuses people make for these criminals - - they really believe in invading other countries at will, they really believe in water-boarding. Fuck them and fuck what they really believe in. I bet the Nazis really believed in the Master Race, really believed in Zyklon B. Who gives a rat's ass WHAT they "really believed" when their actions are criminal and outrageous? You Americans will always give yourselves a pass, the rest of the world doesn't and never will.
XO sez: <<I don't think it is fair to refer to American soldiers as dead hillbillies, either.>>
OF COURSE it isn't fair!! It isn't fair to drop white phosphorus on civilians either. It isn't fair for the world's mightiest and onliest super-power to make up phony grievances against a tiny, oil-rich country so they can invade it. It isn't fair to waterboard a helpless prisoner or stick batons up his ass. It isn't fair to drop JDAMS on residential areas. Lotta things in life aren't fair.
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OF COURSE it isn't fair!! It isn't fair to drop white phosphorus on civilians either. It isn't fair for the world's mightiest and onliest super-power to make up phony grievances against a tiny, oil-rich country so they can invade it. It isn't fair to waterboard a helpless prisoner or stick batons up his ass. It isn't fair to drop JDAMS on residential areas. Lotta things in life aren't fair.
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Well, who couldn't agree with that?
However, these are examples of US government policy being unfair.
Your calling KIA US troops "dead hillbillies" is Michael Tee being unfair. If they are hillbillies, that isn't their fault. My daughter was born in Buckhannon, West Virginia. We moved when she was two, when I took a job elsewhere, but when she tells people where she was born, they kid her about being a 'hillbilly'.
The Army is probably the best job opportunity for any HS graduate that is bored with Upshur County and can't find a job there.
I don't think MT being unfair cancels out waterboarding.
MT has control over being unfair, even if he doesn't have control over Juniorbush & Co.
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I don't think MT being unfair cancels out waterboarding.
MT has control over being unfair, even if he doesn't have control over Juniorbush & Co.
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Sometimes when you see such gigantic unfairness on such a huge scale, all you can do is right the balance a tiny infinitesimal bit by your own little insignificant piece of unfairness going in the opposite direction. It's all you can do. You can spit at the President of the United States of America even if the wind blows it back in your face and nobody even knows that you spat. You can spit on the minions he uses to execute his criminal policies. It's not much, but it's still better than doing nothing. Not by much, but still better.
<<The Army is probably the best job opportunity for any HS graduate that is bored with Upshur County and can't find a job there.>>
Even the dumbest hick has to know that his solution to boredom and unemployment means participating in killing, torture and massive destruction of an entire society. I'll bet many of them even realize it's all about the oil. You may think you're excusing their bad choices, but you're really patronizing them. I'm sure even in hillbilly society there are plenty of them who can tell right from wrong and would refuse on moral principles to have anything to do with the execution of Bush's criminal plans. No matter how "bored" they might be with Upshur County.
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My daughter was born in Buckhannon, West Virginia.
I've been hunting near there. Nice place.
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Even the dumbest hick has to know that his solution to boredom and unemployment means participating in killing, torture and massive destruction of an entire society. I'll bet many of them even realize it's all about the oil. You may think you're excusing their bad choices, but you're really patronizing them. I'm sure even in hillbilly society there are plenty of them who can tell right from wrong and would refuse on moral principles to have anything to do with the execution of Bush's criminal plans. No matter how "bored" they might be with Upshur County.
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For centuries, the military has been glorified as a wonderful career. Observe how no one erects statues to electrical engineers, mechanics, plowboys or taco assembly persons.
I agree that there are doubtless many people in Upshur that are aware that the Army is about killing, but surely you are aware that many Americans thought that invading Iraq was to make everyone safer and to spread democracy. Next thing you know, then Ay-rabs will crash one of those planes into the Upshur County Courthouse.
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It isn't fair to drop white phosphorus on civilians either.
What, you don't like crispy critters? Guess they shouldn't'a been living in a war zone, the buncha dumbass hicks.
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<<What, you don't like crispy critters? Guess they shouldn't'a been living in a war zone, the buncha dumbass hicks.>>
The war zone is thousands of miles from the U.S.A., the dumbass hicks were people once - - mothers, children, grandparents. And they roasted to death in their beds in their own homes. The Americans who killed them travelled a long, long way to burn them alive in phosphorus.
I don't get any sense from any significant portion of the American public that a horrible crime has taken place. It's just "war" and nobody's to blame for it. Well of course, Saddam Hussein's to blame for it. The victims are to blame for the war. Bush had no choice. Cheney had no choice. Saddam made them do what they had to do. "War" is hell.
Excuses you wouldn't accept from a teenager who keyed your car are swallowed whole when the consequences are thousands of agonizing fiery deaths.
I guess I just don't get it. Where is the sense of outrage? Where is the acountability?
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the dumbass hicks were people once
That's the point, moron.
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I got it the first time, schmuck.
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And they roasted to death in their beds in their own homes. The Americans who killed them travelled a long, long way to burn them alive in phosphorus.
Yeah, and they violated some of the laws of physics to do it as well...
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<<Yeah, and they violated some of the laws of physics to do it as well...>>
Those are very serious charges. Can you back them up?
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Those are very serious charges. Can you back them up?
Yup, they somehow got WP to burn skin but not burn clothing. Serious violation of the laws of physics there.
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The bodies appeared to have been badly burned by some kind of chemical agent. A soldier who was in some kind of operations control or command centre during the battle recalls hearing a few radio calls for WP. Numerous persons at the scene reported seeing the kind of smoke that was typical of WP. That the clothes were not burned by the phosphorus can be explained in various ways - - the clothes were wholly or partially blasted off the bodies then replaced by survivors for reasons of modesty; the bodies were slick with sweat and the phosphorus worked more effectively on a wet surface; the clothes were either blasted off or also burned but before the photos were taken, the Americans secured the scene and placed unburned clothes over the bodies; the phosphorus was in a cloud or mist and reacted with body sweat to form some kind of compound that burned down to the bone; the weapon used, while still called WP was either a radically modified form of phosphorus or a new compound that will burn on either dry or sweaty skin, but won't burn on fabric.
Whether it was WP or some other chemical agent responsible, those civilian bodies appeared to have died a horrible and agonizing death from something the Americans dropped on them.
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WP burns at 900 degrees, and produces thermal (not chemical) burns. Clothing burns at lower temperatures than skin. No normal clothing that I know of can survive 900 degree flames. And when WP burns, it does not "explode" and "blast clothing off bodies" (and the clothes were intact, imagine that! Must be specially designed stripper clothing that comes off instantly without tearing...)
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Oh yeah, WP is not a "mist" - it's a thick, oily substance. Looks like paraffin.
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WP burns at 900 degrees, and produces thermal (not chemical) burns. Clothing burns at lower temperatures than skin. No normal clothing that I know of can survive 900 degree flames. And when WP burns, it does not "explode" and "blast clothing off bodies" (and the clothes were intact, imagine that! Must be specially designed stripper clothing that comes off instantly without tearing...)
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So what is your actual theory? That the bodies of already dead people were stripped, burned and then dressed, and this is all for show?
Do you mean to suggest that all WP victims were burned by WPomething similar) and their clothing was intact and unburned?
What if their clothing was wet? would that not raise the combustion point?
People are likely to be stressed when bombed, and that is likely to make them sweat.
The fact is that many, many more Iraqis have died as a result of this needless war than Saddam ever would have killed. The US government of Juniorbush started this war, and is there largely responsible for the maimings, killings and dislocations of Iraqis.
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WP burns better in the presence of moisture, producing a hotter flame. So, if they were sweating, it would produce a hotter flame. I also observe that water flashes over to steam at a much lower temperature than 900 degrees, so the clothing would dry nearly instantly. And also, skin is nearly all water (at least 80%) so the clothing would again burn faster than the skin.
I have no theory since no real investigation was done. I just pointed out that the facts as shown on the Italian video do not jive with the physics of WP combustion.
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<<WP burns at 900 degrees, and produces thermal (not chemical) burns. Clothing burns at lower temperatures than skin. >>
There were calls for WP and the Army now admits WP was used. There are probably many ways that WP can be mixed with other substances to maximize its effectiveness as a weapon, each mixture producing some variation in the data that would come out of laboratory experiments on "white phosphorus."
<<No normal clothing that I know of can survive 900 degree flames. >>
There's no evidence that the clothing was subject to 900 degree flames. Or that it wasn't put on after death.
<<And when WP burns, it does not "explode" and "blast clothing off bodies" >>
Probably not. But the explosion I referred to was the explosion of the delivery vehicle, which dispersed the WP in the first place. Unless it was dispersed by a little robot arm that extruded from the shell and then pressed the button on a spray can of WP, while rotating the can 360 degrees.
<<(and the clothes were intact, imagine that! Must be specially designed stripper clothing that comes off instantly without tearing...)>>
Other possibilities of course are that the bodies were dressed after death, or that the WP was dispersed in a mist that easily penetrated fabric, dissolved in surface body sweat and began burning its way into the flesh rather than burning and flaming out on the surface.
<<Oh yeah, WP is not a "mist" - it's a thick, oily substance. Looks like paraffin.>>
Yeah, and water's not a mist, either - - it's a liquid that looks just like vodka, can be poured into and out of containers and will fall straight to the ground if spilled or poured. Unless you put it in a bottle that can spray it out as a mist. Or encounter it as a fog.
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WP does not exist as a "fog", either. If it encounters oxygen, it will burst into flames. Even if the air temperature was too low to cause pyrophoric effects by itself, any simple jarring or disruption (like that caused by the burster charge which disperses the WP) will cause it to ignite. There is a reason why red phosphorus is used in match heads - it doesn't take much disruption to cause it to ignite, and white phosphorus is even more sensitive. If white phosphorus is in a room where the air temperature is too low to cause the pyrophoric effect, just breathing on it (or a fly landing on it, I've done that experiment) will cause it to ignite. Picric acid is another highly sensitive compound; I did the fly experiment with that, too.
Unless, of course, you believe physics and / or chemistry is optional.
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I have no theory since no real investigation was done. I just pointed out that the facts as shown on the Italian video do not jive with the physics of WP combustion.
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Then the theory could be that whatever was on the video was something else, perhaps?
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<<Thursday, November 10, 2005
<<Nights in White ... Phosphorus
<<Big news in the blogosphere: the use of white phosphorus in Iraq. Frankly, people are pissed.
<<The Courtier has a Ph.D. in biochemistry, in addition to being a military history buff, and I picked his brain a little bit last night. If a combined high explosive/white phosphorus shell were used, some of the phosphorus would be immediately burn anything or anyone flammable. An uncertain portion of the phosphorus would be thrown up into the air, creating a cloud of variable diameter that would depend on the amount of the shell's explosive payload. As the particles of phosphorus cooled, they would settle down to the ground. The range of dispersal would depend on wind direction as well as the size and strength of the shell.>>
http://nikkiverse.net/bac/2005/11/nights-in-white-phosphorus.html (http://nikkiverse.net/bac/2005/11/nights-in-white-phosphorus.html)
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<<JEFF ENGLEHART: The gases from the warhead of the white phosphorus will disperse in a cloud. And when it makes contact with skin, then it’s absolutely irreversible damage, burning of flesh to the bone. It doesn’t necessarily burn clothes, but it will burn the skin underneath clothes. And this is why protective masks do not help, because it will burn right through the mask, the rubber of the mask. It will manage to get inside your face. If you breathe it, it will blister your throat and your lungs until you suffocate, and then it will burn you from the inside. It basically reacts to skin, oxygen and water. The only way to stop the burning is with wet mud. But at that point, it’s just impossible to stop.
REPORTER: Have you seen the effects of these weapons?
JEFF ENGLEHART: Yes. Burned. Burned bodies. I mean, it burned children, and it burned women. White phosphorus kills indiscriminately. It’s a cloud that will within, in most cases, 150 meters of impact will disperse, and it will burn every human being or animal.
http://www.democracynow.org/2005/11/8/u_s_broadcast_exclusive_fallujah_the (http://www.democracynow.org/2005/11/8/u_s_broadcast_exclusive_fallujah_the)
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Then the theory could be that whatever was on the video was something else, perhaps?
Or was not caused by the US military at all.
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As the particles of phosphorus cooled, they would settle down to the ground. The range of dispersal would depend on wind direction as well as the size and strength of the shell.
Great. White phosphorus that is not pyrophoric.
Needs to submit the documentation for a possible Noble Prize. After all, they have apparently found something that scientists studying this element have not seen yet: a stable form of P4. I bet it doesn't glow green in the dark, either.
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Where's your response to this? Should this guy be submitting for a Nobel too?
<<JEFF ENGLEHART: The gases from the warhead of the white phosphorus will disperse in a cloud. >>
Note he says "gases from the warhead of white phosphorus" and does not say "white phosphorus."
<<And when it makes contact with skin, then it’s absolutely irreversible damage, burning of flesh to the bone. >>
That's a myth too, huh? Also worthy of a Nobel Prize submission, or just a myth?
<<It doesn’t necessarily burn clothes, but it will burn the skin underneath clothes. And this is why protective masks do not help, because it will burn right through the mask, the rubber of the mask. It will manage to get inside your face. If you breathe it, it will blister your throat and your lungs until you suffocate, and then it will burn you from the inside. It basically reacts to skin, oxygen and water. >>
Gee, I guess he need some of your chemistry and physics lessons too. Don't these guys ever learn?
<<The only way to stop the burning is with wet mud. But at that point, it’s just impossible to stop.>>
MUD, haw haw. Shows ya how primitive these guys are. It's the only remedy they know, apart from wet cow dung.
<<REPORTER: Have you seen the effects of these weapons?
<<JEFF ENGLEHART: Yes. Burned. Burned bodies. I mean, it burned children, and it burned women. White phosphorus kills indiscriminately. It’s a cloud that will within, in most cases, 150 meters of impact will disperse, and it will burn every human being or animal.>>
Obviously terrorist propaganda. Everyone knows WP will burn in the air. Honest, I've seen it in my high-school chemistry class. All the scientists in the WORLD couldn't figure out a way to make it NOT burn in the air or disperse as a cloud. Why it's as laughable a thought as jellied gasoline.
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Even the dumbest hick has to know that his solution to boredom and unemployment means participating in killing, torture and massive destruction of an entire society. I'll bet many of them even realize it's all about the oil. You may think you're excusing their bad choices, but you're really patronizing them. I'm sure even in hillbilly society there are plenty of them who can tell right from wrong and would refuse on moral principles to have anything to do with the execution of Bush's criminal plans. No matter how "bored" they might be with Upshur County.
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For centuries, the military has been glorified as a wonderful career. Observe how no one erects statues to electrical engineers, mechanics, plowboys or taco assembly persons.
I agree that there are doubtless many people in Upshur that are aware that the Army is about killing, but surely you are aware that many Americans thought that invading Iraq was to make everyone safer and to spread democracy. Next thing you know, then Ay-rabs will crash one of those planes into the Upshur County Courthouse.
http://www.weevilwonderland.com/weevil.html (http://www.weevilwonderland.com/weevil.html)
(http://www.geocities.com/skibbie61/wev.jpg)
http://www.geocities.com/skibbie61/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/skibbie61/index.html)
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Note he says "gases from the warhead of white phosphorus" and does not say "white phosphorus."
Then we're not talking about WP burns?
MUD, haw haw. Shows ya how primitive these guys are. It's the only remedy they know, apart from wet cow dung.
Anything that will cut it off from gaseous oxygen will work. It's stored in laboratories under kerosene, for example.
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<<Then we're not talking about WP burns?>>
I think what we're talking about is burns from a weapon called WP or variations thereof by the troops that might originally have been either white phosphorus or contained white phosphorus. "WP," whatever its actual chemical composition might have been at the time of the siege of Falluja, was called down by the troops (one version of the story seemed to indicate it might have been decided upon by the guys in the helicopters overhead and radioed down to the ground) released onto many civilians, who died of severe burns. Whether or not the stuff in the weapons called down by U.S. forces matches up in molecular analysis with what a chemistry teacher would think of as white phosphorus, I have no idea.
We're talking about civilians who died of burns caused by U.S. troops is the bottom line.
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We're talking about civilians who died of burns caused by U.S. troops is the bottom line.
We're talking about civilians we were told died of burns caused by US Troops. Just because it was claimed does not make it so.
And US Troops are still issued WP as a part of their normal TOE. WP's chemical composition remains P4.
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<<We're talking about civilians we were told died of burns caused by US Troops. Just because it was claimed does not make it so.>>
I've seen and heard enough reports to convince me. There are photos of the bodies, there is the soldier's account of hearing the calls for WP during the battle, there are the reports of the independent Iraqi journalist who viewed the scene and there are doctor reports from the hospital. You can invalidate just about any claims of war crimes with "just because it was claimed does not make it so" but as far as I am concerned, there's more than enough material reported to convince me. It's an old story how many defenders war criminals have in their own country - - that's what "support the troops" really means.
<<And US Troops are still issued WP as a part of their normal TOE. >>
And why does that not surprise me? They are war criminals and their commanders are war criminals.
<<WP's chemical composition remains P4.>>
In that case (according to you) it should be incapable of forming clouds or of burning human skin without burning the overlying clothes. I don't believe it's simply P4 and nothing else.
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And why does that not surprise me? They are war criminals and their commanders are war criminals.
It's part of the standard TOE for British troops as well. And a number of other NATO countries.
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It's part of the standard TOE for British troops as well. And a number of other NATO countries.
All war criminals, the damned lot of 'em. If you fight with anything more advanced than clubs and rocks, it's a war crime.
I'd like to see where T has one charge that has held up anywhere showing that the entire American Army, including every officer, is a war criminal. Hey, T, I was a member of that Army at one time. And, sonofabitch, I'm an American, and apparently you can't stand either, the way you can't pass up an opportunity to bad mouth both of them. Which makes me wonder why the fuck you even bother to hang around here in the old U.S. of by-God A, if you hate us so much. I know we have our problems, and I know our government has done a lot to poke the rest of the world in the eye. I've never been one to tell anybody to love it or leave it, but I'm about fed up with your bad mouthing any and everything American, and denigrating our military, especially the dead.
There is a lot I can agree with you about, about Bush and the follyh of the war in Iraq.
Those I cannot agree with you about. Ever. I've been to a lot of countries over the years, including Canada, and I'll tell you right now, with all its problems, there is still nowhere else in the world I would rather live than here. You can call us hillbillies and hicks all you want, I just wish you would go somewhere else to do it. After all, our great-great-grand hillbilles and hicks got rid of the rest of you British troublemakers over 200 years ago.
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Mikey likes to poke the bear.
No pun intended.
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After all, our great-great-grand hillbilles and hicks got rid of the rest of you British troublemakers over 200 years ago.
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MT might be a Canadian, but British seems to be one of the things he clearly isn;t.
Canada as it exists today, it the result of the British trying to get it right on the second try. It took about 175 years and an ample dose of Mohandas Gandhi, but Canada is the better for it.
There is much to be said for a country that isn't crowded, too.
The US is getting too crowded and we are doing nothing about it.
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MT might be a Canadian, but British seems to be one of the things he clearly isn;t.
Canada as it exists today, it the result of the British trying to get it right on the second try. It took about 175 years and an ample dose of Mohandas Gandhi, but Canada is the better for it.
Canada was a dominion of the British Empire until 1982. Presumably, Mikey was born before 1982.
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Presumably, Mikey was born before 1982.
So? That makes him a UK citizen, but not necessarily British.
Can any law or governmental provision make you a Celt or an Ojibwa?
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So? That makes him a UK citizen, but not necessarily British.
Can any law or governmental provision make you a Celt or an Ojibwa?
I'm pretty sure Bear was talking about nationality, not racial origins. Queen Elizabeth II is of German ancestry, but no one would presume to say that she is not British.
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<<All war criminals, the damned lot of 'em. If you fight with anything more advanced than clubs and rocks, it's a war crime.>>
I think it's the application of the WP to a civilian population that is the war crime. And in the broader context, the invasion of Iraq is a criminal act, making all the participants criminals. British too, sad to say.
<<I'd like to see where T has one charge that has held up anywhere showing that the entire American Army, including every officer, is a war criminal. >>
Never claimed that they were. If they didn't go to Iraq, Viet Nam, Panama, the DR, etc., then how can they be criminals?
Strange, huh, how the U.S. WILL NOT RECOGNIZE the jurisdiction of the International Court of Criminal Justice to try Americans for war crimes? Even your leaders know in their fucking guts they are a bunch of fucking criminals.
<<Hey, T, I was a member of that Army at one time. >>
Wouldn't make you a criminal if you didn't serve in Viet Nam. Would make you a criminal if you did.
<<And, sonofabitch, I'm an American, and apparently you can't stand either, the way you can't pass up an opportunity to bad mouth both of them. >>
That's pure bullshit. When did I bad-mouth Noam Chomsky? Dennis Kucinich? Jane Fonda? Rosa Parks? Russell Fucking MEANS for christ sake! I support the GOOD Americans, the anti-fascist, anti-racist, anti-militarist, anti-war Americans. You fell into the trap the right-wingers set, that only fascists, militarists and war-mongers are Americans, everyone else "hates America." Fucking bullshit and you probably know better.
<<Which makes me wonder why the fuck you even bother to hang around here in the old U.S. of by-God A, if you hate us so much. >>
I just want to help you. Besides, two of my three little grandchildren are little Americans. It's a great country.
<<I know we have our problems, and I know our government has done a lot to poke the rest of the world in the eye. >>
Translation: I know we're a bunch of racists and war-mongers.
<<I've never been one to tell anybody to love it or leave it, but I'm about fed up with your bad mouthing any and everything American, and denigrating our military, especially the dead.>>
Fuck them, they're dead war criminals and pinning an American flag on them doesn't change the situation. You're way too indulgent with them. You KNOW they participated in a huge crime that has cost hundreds of thousands of innocent lives that never posed the slightest threat to them, and all you can focus on is, these are Americans and they can't be bad-mouthed. Here's a news flash for you - - people who do bad things CAN be bad-mouthed and SHOULD be bad-mouthed, whether they're Japs, Nazis or Americans. Being an American is not a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card.
<<There is a lot I can agree with you about, about Bush and the follyh of the war in Iraq.>>
Well, it's not a "folly," it's a crime. But otherwise, yeah, two and two DO make four, don't they?
<<Those I cannot agree with you about. Ever. I've been to a lot of countries over the years, including Canada, and I'll tell you right now, with all its problems, there is still nowhere else in the world I would rather live than here. >>
It's a great country. I never denied that. I could even understand choosing it over Canada. Over half my mum's family and one of my three children have made that choice. Two of my kids got their master's degree in the U.S. I love to visit and I really like most of the Americans I meet when traveling. But loving the U.S.A. in general does not equate to approving its criminal policies.
<<You can call us hillbillies and hicks all you want, I just wish you would go somewhere else to do it. After all, our great-great-grand hillbilles and hicks got rid of the rest of you British troublemakers over 200 years ago.>>
Yeah you got rid of them alright. Kept most of their forms of government, laws and administration, but you got rid of them. The only difference between you and the Canadians is that you made some big improvements on the British system from the beginning, and we clung to it maybe a little longer than we should have. They are still a thousand times more civilized in their behaviour then your country will ever be. They've still done a thousand times more good in the world than you will ever do. They stood up to Hitler when there was no one else to stand beside them and America's main concern was keeping themselves out of the fight. You've got a lot of God-damn nerve criticizing the British Empire.
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<<MT might be a Canadian, but British seems to be one of the things he clearly isn;t.>>
I beg to differ. My first passport says: "Nationality: British by birth" Over the years, I saw the Canadian passport office gradually water this down; first, "Nationality: Canadian," and printed at the bottom of the same page, "A Canadian citizen is a British subject," and finally, the elimination of any reference to Great Britain in the current passports.
In small, largely symbolic ways, our Province, Ontario, is more British than the British: We still celebrate Queen Victoria's birthday, the 24th of May, as an official statutory holiday. Even the English have given that up.
I'm very proud of any British heritage that remains to me. Our public school used to fly the Union Jack from its flagpole, and our junior high school had a huge portrait of the Queen in the lobby outside the principal's office. We began each assembly with the singing of the national anthem which was then "God Save the Queen." All of those symbols have long since been deleted from our national life. My kids never saw them. Until the 1970s, I had the right to move to England, vote in their elections and run for elected office after three months' residence. That was changed by English law since it appeared that many more Jamaicans than Canadians were taking advantage of the privilege. They couldn't just ban the Jamaicans, which would be blatantly racist, so they banned ALL Commonwealth citizens instead, which was superficially non-racist. But I will tell you, England is the greatest country that ever existed. And it's directly responsible for 90% of whatever good can still be found in America.
<<Canada as it exists today, it the result of the British trying to get it right on the second try. It took about 175 years and an ample dose of Mohandas Gandhi, but Canada is the better for it.>>
Yes.
<<There is much to be said for a country that isn't crowded, too.>>
No, we need more people. But we DO have some great national parks, and nobody's gonna drill for oil in them.
<<The US is getting too crowded and we are doing nothing about it.>>
No comment, only because I don't know if anyone has ever figured out if there is an optimum population for the U.S.
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They are still a thousand times more civilized in their behaviour then your country will ever be.
And still can't figure out the difference between then and than. Who needs two forks and wants to hold their pinky out when they drink tea anyway?
They've still done a thousand times more good in the world than you will ever do.
Bullshit.
They stood up to Hitler when there was no one else to stand beside them...
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Let's not forget the Russians. Or lend-lease. Or convoys. Enough Americans were concerned with standing by the British to finds ways to help them, despite our laws saying we should remain neutral. And let's not forget that without that help, Britain might be speaking German today.
You've got a lot of God-damn nerve criticizing the British Empire.
I say the same about you and your constant carping about the US and our troops.
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Mikey likes to poke the bear.
Not generally - he just likes to go on and on about how bad we Americans are. I generally ignore him when he gets like that, even though there are a lot of things I agree with him about, but when he started the '4000 dead hillbillies' shit the other day, I'd had enough and decided to call him on it. I don't agree with the war in Iraq, or with our troops being there, but they're there, putting their asses on the line for something, right or wrong. He may think it's wrong, I may think it's wrong, but that's no reason to denigrate the sacrifice they've made. And he might consider his own words, that they are sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, and more, so the sacrifice is not theirs alone.
I guess I just can't stand for the sorry sonofabitch to speak ill of the dead, any one of which probably has more honor in one eyelash than T could ever have.
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<<I'd like to see where T has one charge that has held up anywhere showing that the entire American Army, including every officer, is a war criminal. >>
Never claimed that they were. If they didn't go to Iraq, Viet Nam, Panama, the DR, etc., then how can they be criminals?
Sure you did.
<<And US Troops are still issued WP as a part of their normal TOE. >>
And why does that not surprise me? They are war criminals and their commanders are war criminals.
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<<I guess I just can't stand for the sorry sonofabitch to speak ill of the dead, any one of which probably has more honor in one eyelash than T could ever have.>>
The day when a dead war criminal has more honour in his eyelash than a fucking snake let alone than Michael T. or anyone else opposed to war, fascism, racism and militarism will be a frosty day in hell. And there are hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and millions of dead Vietnamese including hundreds of thousands of dead children who could have backed me up on that if they hadn't been murdered by American criminals. Quit sentimentalizing the bastards and recognize what they actually did.
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Ah yes the group slur
commie bastards do that a lot
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Quit sentimentalizing the bastards and recognize what they actually did.
Fuck you, you sorry sonofabitch. Go peddle your bullshit to someone else.
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http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm)
Smoke grenades are irritateing but the smole is not particulary dangerous.
Marker Rockets put a plume of smoke on a target that other more potent wepons can direct onto.
As incindiry devices go WP is no worse than the others , because all incendiary devices are very bad to be near when they ignite.
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You may be British if you wish, MT.
I don't really think that the English are such hot snot. They were largely successful in making their European populated colonies into respectable democracies: Canada, New Zealand, Australia. I'd say the Irish had to work the hardest, because the UK did not want to allow it to be independent. They were less successful by an order of magnitude in Africa. South Africa, and Botswana seem to have done quite well, Kenya and Tanzania less well, Zimbabwe and Nigeria are basket cases.
I'd say the Swedes and Danes have managed to do better for themselves than the English and the Scots. Everyone has cleaned up their act since WWII, except the US, which seems to have gotten worse. I would attribute this more to the loathsome and manipulative Dulles Brothers, since most every foreign policy mess can be laid in their laps: Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, most of Central America and South America: if it sucked and it happened since 1944, it is invariably the fault of crap the Dulles Bros. pulled off.
When people ask what nationality I am, I say, "The last name is Saxon, but I am also part Dutch, Irish, French and Choctaw." I don't think I would use the word "British".
Onassis is, of course, a pseudonym. As well as good advice. You all should Xavier Onassis, in my opinion.
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<<Smoke grenades are irritateing but the smole is not particulary dangerous.
<<Marker Rockets put a plume of smoke on a target that other more potent wepons can direct onto.
<<As incindiry devices go WP is no worse than the others , because all incendiary devices are very bad to be near when they ignite.>>
Apparently the Bush administration tells so many lies that its supporters can't always keep up with the latest one. Originally the U.S. just flat-out denied the use of WP in Fallujah. Then they had to admit it was used, but only as a "marker" - - which seems to be about as far as plane followed the trail of lies. Since then they have had to change tack again, and admit that they were using WP as a weapon - -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm)
<<US troops used white phosphorus as a weapon in last year's offensive in the Iraqi city of Falluja, the US has said.
<<"It was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants," spokesman Lt Col Barry Venable told the BBC - though not against civilians, he said.
<<The US had earlier said the substance - which can cause burning of the flesh - had been used only for illumination.
<<BBC defence correspondent Paul Wood says having to retract its denial is a public relations disaster for the US.
<<Col Venable denied that white phosphorous constituted a banned chemical weapon. >>
It's true that as of now, they have yet to admit using the WP against civilian noncombatants. The numerous eye-witness accounts and photos leave no doubt that many Fallujah civilians died of phosphorus burns so you can take the denials for what they're worth, especially in view of their previous lies about it.
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<<I don't really think that the English are such hot snot. They were largely successful in making their European populated colonies into respectable democracies: Canada, New Zealand, Australia. I'd say the Irish had to work the hardest, because the UK did not want to allow it to be independent. They were less successful by an order of magnitude in Africa. South Africa, and Botswana seem to have done quite well, Kenya and Tanzania less well, Zimbabwe and Nigeria are basket cases.>>
You know, XO, some of these countries have racial/tribal/religious divides that no amount of British Parliamentary democracy can fix. Or problems of poverty and exploitation by the First World that have dug them into holes that nobody can dig them out of. But even in the worst cases, I can't help thinking they'd be even worse without the standards set by the British for them to at least try to preserve.
A few nights ago I watched a TV documentary on Sharia law in some Nigerian states where it operates in parallel with the civil law, which takes precedence if one party wants it to. They were showing an argument in the Nigerian civil courts over the Sharia court's jurisdiction, and the case was being argued by Nigerian barristers in wigs and robes and I was very impressed at the standard of advocacy, there in Africa, African lawyers addressing the court in the formal English way ("my Lord," "your Lordship," etc.) and arguing learnedly and courteously before the bewigged African judge. Pretty much the same as lawyers would do anywhere in the English-speaking world. It was a measure of the breadth of the power and the influence of the British Empire and there is no doubt in my mind that no matter how fucked up Nigeria may be as a country today, they are a thousand per cent better off than they would have been had the British not been there and left some of their imprint upon those people.
<<I'd say the Swedes and Danes have managed to do better for themselves than the English and the Scots. >>
I'm not sure that the differences between England and Denmark are anything but marginal - - a smaller population is easier to manage than a larger one, but I'm a big admirer of the Danes and their country. England got the shit bombed out of it in the war, whereas the Danes were peacefully occupied by Germany and Sweden never even got into the war. Actually, they're both really great people although obviously there's no doubt that the British have accomplished a lot more on the world stage.
<<Everyone has cleaned up their act since WWII, except the US, which seems to have gotten worse. I would attribute this more to the loathsome and manipulative Dulles Brothers, since most every foreign policy mess can be laid in their laps: Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, most of Central America and South America: if it sucked and it happened since 1944, it is invariably the fault of crap the Dulles Bros. pulled off.>>
The Dulles brothers were representatives of a class and of that class's interests. That class was a nefarious influence in the U.S.A. but I don't think it started with the Dulles Bros. It probably goes back to the U.S. Civil War and the industrialization of the North-Eastern States. That's when the bastards really got their foot in the door and began to subvert what was intended to be a democratic government.
<<When people ask what nationality I am, I say, "The last name is Saxon, but I am also part Dutch, Irish, French and Choctaw." I don't think I would use the word "British".>>
I think when people ask that question, they want to know what your "race" or ethnic background is, so I usually just say "Jewish," cuz that's the information they're after. Sometimes I say, "I usta be Jewish but I quit," but only to other Jews, who know what I mean. I think it's great that you said "Choctaw" because up here when a guy has Indian blood, usually he just says "Indian" like he either had no pride in his ancestry or he just didn't care enough to know.
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I agree that the Dulles were representative of their class interests, but they were the ones, far more than any others who engineered the imposition of the Shah, the death and disappearance squads in Central and South America, the creation of the Muslim Brotherhood to oppose Nasser, the Vietnam War, and all sorts of financial manipulations to screw the rest of the world out of its money and cause it to gravitate towards the coffers of their favorite banking establishments. They were in cahoots with the British, by the way. The ruling class of the US has been best buddies since the days of JP Morgan before WWI.
The British ruling class benefited immensely from colonialism. The British people got, as usual, the dirty end of the stick.
The other night PBS had this show about how great Winston Churchill was, with his granddaughter as narrator. It was the most gawdawful puff piece I have ever seen. Sir Winston was presented as a Major Hero of the Human Race. His hideous disaster at Gallipoli, which resulted in thousands of dead and maimed Anzac troops was sort of glided over, it was barely mentioned in passing that he was disliked for this, and left the Admiralty sort of like on vacation. I wanted to throw sharp objects at the screen. What an utterly snobbish, hateful bitch his granddaughter is!
Churchill was an effective leader during WWII against the Nazis. He was a good writer, but somewhat full of himself, and a goddamned elitist to the core. I think you can say the same about the British elite during the colonial period. I know lots of English and Scots, none of them nobility, and they are decent people, really. But the British ruling class is like the American ruling class. Never forget that they are congenital liars, and when they come a-visiting, always hide the good silver.
My Choctaw ancestor was a 6 foot tall medicine woman named Mourning Tree (as in Willow) Frazier. Her father was metis, her mother was Choctaw, and she was the closest thing to a doctor on the Ft Washita Reservation, which was decommissioned in 1859, when the Comanches stopped raiding that part of Oklahoma. She married a New England great-great-great- (not exactly sure of how many greats here) grandfather of mine who came with his wife as missionaries in the late 1830's. The wife died and he married Mourning Tree.
His grandson was one of the riders in the mob that stole the Oklahoma Territorial records from Guthrie and brought them to Oklahoma City.
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My dad remembers the entire family sitting around the radio in the darkest days of WWII waiting to hear Winston Churchill, and the confidence and the inspiration that flowed from him. In the album "I Can Hear It Now," a compilation of radio broadcasts from 1933 to 1945 edited by Fred Friendly and Edward R. Murrow, which I listened to endlessly as a teenager, one of the announcers said of Churchill, "He mobilized the English language and sent it into battle." Personally, I've never heard or read any other speeches that were as eloquent, as simple and as inspiring. Churchill never lost his courage, even when all seemed lost. He typified the "British bulldog," civilized and polite on the outside but hard as nails on the inside, capable of ripping out your throat. There was no way he was ever going to lose his cool, or his ironic sense of humour, and there was no way he was going to give in to the Nazi bastards. Sure, Gallipoli was a mistake, but it was an honest mistake, undertaken in good faith, it wasn't a crime the way Viet Nam and Iraq and so many other U.S. campaigns are just crimes.
I agree with you in general about the English upper classes, many of whom supported and contributed to Hitler's early successes because of their fear of "Bolshevism," but there were always honourable exceptions, who recognized the threat of fascism, if not at the outset, at least very early, Churchill and Anthony Eden among them.
We have a Winston Churchill Collegiate (high school) a Winston Churchill Blvd. and a statue of Winston Churchill on the front grounds of our Toronto City Hall. I don't think many of our recent immigrants know or care who Winston Churchill was, but to me, my family (with the exception of my kids) and friends, Winston Churchill was by far the greatest statesman of the 20th Century and probably the preceding and subsequent centuries too. My friends' son was named Winston in his honour. Winston Churchill stood like a rock in Hitler's path and single-handedly changed the course of history.
Your family history reminds me of a New Yorker cartoon of a family tree, no words at all, but just cartoon portraits at the tips of all the branches - -Dutch, Spanish, Puritans, frontiersmen, Indians, metis, Continental soldiers, Union cavalry, Confederate sharpshooters, Southern belles, flappers, Rosie the Riveter, WWII G.I.s and finally at the very bottom some innocuous, happy-looking nerd with eyeglasses and a slightly receding hairline. Your country certainly has had an interesting history, and it's reflected in the bloodlines of its people.
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Churchill was just as stubborn about denying the average commoner his due as he was about opposing Hitler. That is why he was thrown out of office after WWII: the commoners got crappy wages and rationing, the upper class got anything money could buy, and they had all the money.
Morally, the Brits were just wrong to try to defeat the Boers in South Africa. The Boers were there first, after all. The tactics used by the Brits were close to what the US did in Vietnam, and it was immoral for the same reasons.
Gallipoli was the result of too much attention to the Greek classics. The Aussies and Kiwis were thrown in their because they knew that it was politically more acceptable to use those poor sons and grandsons of thieves and grifters than to risk the lives of decent British soldiers.
It was clear after the first week or so that it was a disaster, but it went on far too long. After a couple of months it was pretty clear that it would not work, but they kept sending troops into the meat grinder for another four months.
But as I said, his granddaughter was the most annoying narrator I have ever heard, right up there with the sanctimonious creep that announces on COPS.
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<<But as I said, his granddaughter was the most annoying narrator I have ever heard, right up there with the sanctimonious creep that announces on COPS.>>
Churchill didn't seem to have too much luck with his children, or, it seems, his grandchildren. Must be tough to be the son or daughter of a legend.
I don't know if COPS is the show I've seen, but there's one where the cops are followed around busting down doors and generally terrorizing a bunch of down-and-out members of the underclass in their own wretched little hovels for heinous crimes such as trying to escape from their miserable surroundings with a little dope, the poor man's travel alternative. I always thought it should be re-titled "Stormtroopers in Amerika," and wondered how many Americans were getting their vicarious jollies from such a frank and unsavoury close-up of the rich and the powerful bullying the weak and the seriously fucked up. I don't remember anything about the announcer, though. Not even if it's a man or a woman.
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I don't know if COPS is the show I've seen, but there's one where the cops are followed around busting down doors and generally terrorizing a bunch of down-and-out members of the underclass in their own wretched little hovels for heinous crimes such as trying to escape from their miserable surroundings with a little dope, the poor man's travel alternative. I always thought it should be re-titled "Stormtroopers in Amerika," and wondered how many Americans were getting their vicarious jollies from such a frank and unsavoury close-up of the rich and the powerful bullying the weak and the seriously fucked up. I don't remember anything about the announcer, though. Not even if it's a man or a woman.
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That is COPS. It is shown here on FOX, but it might be a syndicated show. While the cops are pursuing their inept quarry, they play this song, that asks the musical question, "Bad boys, bad boys, where you gonna go when they come for you?"
The cops are not depicted as rich, they are almost as inarticulate and ungrammatical as their prey. The criminals are poorly groomed and ill-clad, and are only barely able to speak. They offer only the lamest of excuses for their weird behavior. Usually, there is a chase, and after they are captured, they explain that they knew there was a warrant out for their address and did not wish to return to jail.
The cops are generally overweight and seem to have been stuffed into their uniforms several sizes too small. They resemble sausages, and are decorated with all manner of weaponry and devices, reminiscent of Batman's utility belt.
The announcer is a guy with a somewhat whiney voice who makes dumbass comments, such as "There's one reckless driver that won't be endangering others anytime soon".
These comments are after the fashion of Lt. Joe Friday or Dragnet, or more recently, David Caruso's character of CSI: Miami, but sound even more sleazy.
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<<The cops are not depicted as rich, they are almost as inarticulate and ungrammatical as their prey.>>
No, I didn't mean the cops were rich, they are the agents and servants of the rich; if they were rich, they too would hire someone else to do the dirty work.
I remembered the theme song as soon as I saw it written down. It WAS the show I saw, but I still don't recall the announcer at all. Nothing rang a bell. The one thing that stood out was the absolutely atrocious grammar of the underclass. I sometimes speak like that as a joke, but for these guys it was the lingua franca of the milieu. Huge indictment of the public education system right there. A course who has money to put into the public school system when there are AY-rabs out thar thet need a whole heap a killin?
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<<Smoke grenades are irritateing but the smole is not particulary dangerous.
<<Marker Rockets put a plume of smoke on a target that other more potent wepons can direct onto.
<<As incindiry devices go WP is no worse than the others , because all incendiary devices are very bad to be near when they ignite.>>
Apparently the Bush administration tells so many lies that its supporters can't always keep up with the latest one. Originally the U.S. just flat-out denied the use of WP in Fallujah. Then they had to admit it was used, but only as a "marker" - - which seems to be about as far as plane followed the trail of lies. Since then they have had to change tack again, and admit that they were using WP as a weapon - -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm)
<<US troops used white phosphorus as a weapon in last year's offensive in the Iraqi city of Falluja, the US has said.
<<"It was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants," spokesman Lt Col Barry Venable told the BBC - though not against civilians, he said.
<<The US had earlier said the substance - which can cause burning of the flesh - had been used only for illumination.
<<BBC defence correspondent Paul Wood says having to retract its denial is a public relations disaster for the US.
<<Col Venable denied that white phosphorous constituted a banned chemical weapon. >>
It's true that as of now, they have yet to admit using the WP against civilian noncombatants. The numerous eye-witness accounts and photos leave no doubt that many Fallujah civilians died of phosphorus burns so you can take the denials for what they're worth, especially in view of their previous lies about it.
Why should I open your links when you do not open mine?
I did not in any way deny that WP is an incindiary substance and that it is used to produce fires in a warlike way.
It is not a gas or vapor , and though its smoke can be very irritateing it is seldom the cause of injury.
Explodeing a bomb that scattered WP over a wide area can be done , but it would not then cool and settle to the ground , but would produce a fireball instantly that would burn feircely with no delays. Some WP devices splatter sticky WP droplets over a circle around their impact where each droplet starts a fire or a burn wound , but gassifying the WP to ignite later on isn't a possibility.
If you were to follow the link I provided you would find a frank discussion of WP as a munition.
I would not generally favor using incindiary devices against civilians ,but the exceptions when everyone seemed good with it include the marvellous British who found out how to initiate firestorm in German citys.
The unfortunate Iriquis have been catching cross fire and collateral damage quite a lot this decade, I feel sorry for them , especially the innocent who have nowhere to run. A picture of a burned body does not prove that WP was used by Amerivan GIs any more than it proves it was done with gasoline by Al Quieda , where do we get the reliable and unbiased witness?
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COPS is gleaned from police dept. footage. It seems to me that they specialize in making the proles look inarticulate, incompetent and, above all, stupid. It is basically the Jerry Springer version of a cop show. I rarely watch it because it is infuriating and makes me feel embarrassed that I am wasting my time watching it.
Lots of students think it is funny, for some reason.