Author Topic: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.  (Read 12295 times)

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domer

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In asking this question, the companion to the one asked Democrats in which Brass shone so well, I am looking for a realistic assessment of the situation, a clear definition of "victory," an estimation of costs, and a clear projection that in the end we would be better off pursuing "victory" than we would be instituting a policy of withdrawal and developing and implementing an alternate strategy to win the overall conflict with violent, radical Islam.

Amianthus

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2006, 01:49:35 PM »
I guess I won't bother with one of my "inane" responses.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2006, 02:04:29 PM »
What if you're not a Republican?     ???     Are we not allowed to participate?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2006, 02:39:44 PM »
Anyone can answer though the question's directed to Republicans. Here's your chance too present your case, inane or not, which it will be your burden to defend.

BT

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2006, 02:45:58 PM »
Define "victory"

My answer would be yes, which will be fully fleshed out at a later opportunity,  qualified by your definition.


domer

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2006, 02:50:03 PM »
By "your" definition, as I stated. My definition is quite broad; it can tolerate a "loss" in Iraq -- withdrawal with unknown short-term ramifications -- if we can prevail in the long run over violent, radical Islamicists. I've explained this all before, perhaps ad nauseam: my position (or positions) are not a secret.

domer

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2006, 02:57:46 PM »
Here's a "fresh" rendition of some of my thoughts: I hope a true WORKABLE policy emerges from this process, one that a meaningful consensus can embrace. The truth is, though, I don't think Bush is up to making and sustaining such a decision, one that ostensibly would require him to "change his stripes." Voices from many quarters are counseling regional talks, with Syria and Iran included, but Bush has rejected the idea unless those two countries meet preconditions. I think that is folly, and it reflects not a mature, wise judgment on the administration's part, but continuation of a (failed) anti-diplomacy stance, or, at least, a policy orientation favoring confrontation ("bring it on") over the arts of diplomacy and statesmanship. Indeed, my view is that conceived properly, the struggle with violent, radical Islam should be waged as a broad-front cultural (public relations/political) effort to influence the entire Muslim world to undergo their own renaissance with the result being an Islamic culture inhospitable to the radicals. I have seen none of this from Bush, or, more accurately, nothing on the scope or effectiveness needed. Iraq is just part of the picture, to my mind, a battle but not the war itself. Tactical concessions in Iraq, even to the point of a wisely-staged withdrawal, are not incompatible with success in the overall conflict. On the other hand, Iraq is critical in the sense of dictating, to some degree, the very character of the struggle herein out. Given the realities of the situation, which are paramount, a successful outcome, that is, one that is optimal to our interests and the legitimate interests of all others with sympathetic values, broadly defined, will greatly aid our struggle going forward, which may last decades upon decades.

BT

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2006, 03:16:24 PM »
Victory as defined by me would be a dismantling of the Saddam regime, already done, and the installation of a democratically elected Iraqi government capable of administering the country's affairs, in all that that entails.... partially done.

BT

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2006, 03:19:45 PM »
You keep saying that the US need to talk to Iran and Syria.

Fact is the Iraqi government needs to talk to them, if they see the need,  as they are the ones being interfered with. .

 

sirs

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2006, 03:44:54 PM »
Voices from many quarters are counseling regional talks, with Syria and Iran included, but Bush has rejected the idea unless those two countries meet preconditions. I think that is folly, and it reflects not a mature, wise judgment on the administration's part, but continuation of a (failed) anti-diplomacy stance, or, at least, a policy orientation favoring confrontation ("bring it on") over the arts of diplomacy and statesmanship.

I'm sure Chamberlain had similar "voices" and a mindset, when confronted with the ever growing Axis powers.  The "folly" however domer, is the notion of appeasing Terrorists & Terrorist sponsoring regimes.  The folly is in NOT requiring preconditions for ANY talks to begin with such states.  The folly is the idea that they would support a free & democratic Iraq.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 10:17:57 PM »
We have had a lot of victory in Iraq.

We clobbered Saddam in 91.

We clobbered Saddam in 03.

We have been killing Al Queda in Iraq at a rate of 2000 every year , it is amazeing that they can replace at this rate.

We tore Falujah down and made it clear that there is a certain limit to the amount of resistance a resistance movement can get away with .


Getting a purely military victory in Iraq is a done deal , it may not be possible to have a political victory .

A military victory can be entirely one sided but a political victory requires compromise and participation from the other side like a military victory doesn't.

_JS

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2006, 12:13:35 PM »
Relatively weak replies, with a notable exception.

Quote
I'm sure Chamberlain had similar "voices" and a mindset, when confronted with the ever growing Axis powers.

People who bring up Chamberlain (of which there were many in British history and notable that family in fact) in this regard typically have little understanding of the history of World War II and the situation Britain faced at that time. I find that the only correlation they really draw is that the word appeasement now has the negative connotation for which they carry over.

By all means Sirs, tell us how Britain was going to stop Hitler from annexing the Sudetenland? Would you have preferred that Czechoslovakia fought back in a meaningless war?
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BT

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2006, 12:20:15 PM »
Quote
By all means Sirs, tell us how Britain was going to stop Hitler from annexing the Sudetenland? Would you have preferred that Czechoslovakia fought back in a meaningless war?

What was the difference between Poland and the Sudentenland, other than Germany had more years to arm and Britain had time to play catchup.


Brassmask

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2006, 12:34:09 PM »
You noticing a pattern, Domer?

_JS

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2006, 12:44:00 PM »
Quote
What was the difference between Poland and the Sudentenland, other than Germany had more years to arm and Britain had time to play catchup.

For starters, the French were with Britain in defending Poland.  When Hitler was planning to annex the Sudetenland the British had no real allies. How would they have stopped them? What would they have done?

Note also that the Soviets were presumed to be as much of a threat as the Fascist Germans. (There was even Parliamentary debate on whether to declare war on the Soviets - as the invasion of Poland and Finland were taking place). There was also no real justification for invading Poland. The British did not buy into the Danzig corridor being threatened whereas the Sudetenland at the time did contain a number of Germans and German-speakers. It was a flimsy reason to annex them, but you must view this in light of World War I and the punitive Versailles Treaty.

The British and Americans both saw the treaty as overwhelmingly spiteful and somewhat dishonorable. In that sense there was a feeling of indebtedness to the German's honor. Chamberlain and his peers were not men of the 21st century, they were men of the 1930's and a time that still honored Imperialism and Victorian principles. In that sense, Hitler was ahead of his time (more like politicians of today) in that he had a cunning sense of selfishness and exploitation, but also an observance of dogma in fascism.




I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.