Author Topic: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections  (Read 7274 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2007, 08:20:45 AM »
Perhaps they should reimburse you for the fingerprinting and background check expense after you have been on the job for a given amount of time.

I've never been charged for this.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2007, 11:04:05 AM »
<<For the first point, the recent act passed in Georgia included a provision for the issuance of a state photo ID for free. And if you couldn't go down to a state office when they were open to get your free id, you could call them up and they'd send a van out to your home with all the needed equipment on your preferred schedule to make your free photo ID on the spot. This, however, was also struck down as being too burdensome for the voter.>>

Struck down?  I don't get it.  Do you mean the legislature ultimately passed the bill without its original provisions for free photo ID and the van?  In which case, "struck out" would probably be the more accurate terminology and my point would be proven - - the legislators don't give a shit about unfair disenfranchisement of the poor because that's actually the objective of the legislation.  If you mean "struck down" by the courts on some legal technicality, that's probably an example of a different phenomenon - - right-wing judicial ideologues blurring the line between the judiciary and the legislature to work hand-in-glove with their right-wing legislative brothers to disenfranchise the poor and the black.  Either way, it don't look good.

Amianthus

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2007, 08:35:10 PM »
Struck down?  I don't get it.

The bill passed the legislature, was signed by the governor. A court case was filed, with an associated injunction. The case was filed, IIRC, by the ACLU. The law, including the provisions I described, was struck down by the courts as being an "unfair poll tax".
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

BT

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2007, 08:48:06 PM »

December 31, 2007

By Jonathan Bechtle - OLYMPIA, Wash.

There's a showdown at the O.K Corral, otherwise known as the U.S. Supreme Court, over an issue most of us think about only once a year, if that. The ballot box.

On one side are Indiana election officials; on the other is the American Civil Liberties Union and the Indiana Democratic Party. The fight is over an Indiana law requiring people to show photo ID when they go to vote. Sounds like a common-sense requirement, right? According to a Wall Street Journal poll, more than 80 percent of Americans think so, but the measure has drawn vehement opposition from those who think it is unconstitutional because it might be harder for some people to vote.

While this may seem a minor issue, one glance at the length of the list of amicus (friend of the court) briefs filed in the case make the high stakes obvious. Twenty-four briefs were filed by 83 groups and 50 individuals opposed to Indiana's law; another 14 briefs have been filed in support of the state.

Why is it such a big deal? Because the court's decision could change the face of ballot security requirements in elections all across America, either affirming states' efforts to protect the ballot box, or if it rules against Indiana, severely hindering them.

Fundamental changes have been made in election administration since the "hanging chads" mess in the 2000 presidential election. One area of change is identification requirements. There are huge numbers of deceased, felon, duplicate and noncitizen voters increasing opportunities for fraud. Indiana's rolls, for example, are inflated by as much as 40 percent over the actual number of registered voters.

This perceived danger has been compounded by recent instances of illegal voting, including a Washington state gubernatorial race decided by only 133 votes, in which a court discovered more than 1,600 illegal ballots. An Indiana mayoral race was overturned due to 155 illegal votes. A Milwaukee election in which investigators found nearly 5,000 suspicious votes and later charged 14 people with illegal voting, drew national attention. A Tennessee state senate race decided by 12 votes was overturned due to evidence of illegal ballots: Six individuals were charged with vote fraud.

These kinds of facts compelled Indiana and Georgia to enact a photo ID requirement to protect against vote fraud, including provisions for free IDs or ballot alternatives for people without photo ID. They're not alone, as 25 other states have passed or considered photo ID or similar verification requirements.

All these security requirements could be affected by the Supreme Court's decision. Each is intended to protect against voter fraud, but each also puts some level of burden on voters. The petitioners are asking the court, in effect, to declare that these types of security laws are too burdensome on voters.

But they've precious little evidence to prove that point, being unable to produce even one Indiana voter who couldn't cast a ballot because of the photo ID law. The same lack of evidence was present in similar cases in Georgia and Washington state.

On the other hand, illegal ballots are a documented reality in many elections all over the country. Even in small numbers they plunge elections into confusion and demoralize voters. After the debacle in Washington's 2004 gubernatorial race, voter confidence plunged to the point that only 17 percent of voters trusted the state's election system.

The importance of maintaining election security and voter confidence was noted by the Supreme Court in a 1964 case: "No right is more precious in a free country than that of having a voice in the election of those who make the laws under which, as good citizens, we must live. Other rights, even the most basic, are illusory if the right to vote is undermined."

Election security laws like photo ID are justified by the need to ensure only legal votes are cast and counted. The burden on voters can be reduced to a reasonable level by well-crafted laws like Indiana's. The Supreme Court should uphold the photo ID requirement, thus confirming states' authority to protect the integrity of elections.

This is one case where common sense should prevail.

Jonathan Bechtle is an attorney with the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a nonprofit, nonpartisan free-market policy institute in Olympia, Wash. He co-authored an amicus brief filed with the Supreme Court by the Foundation in support of the respondents in the Indiana photo ID case.


http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071231/COMMENTARY/127201184

Michael Tee

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2007, 10:52:40 PM »
<<The bill passed the legislature, was signed by the governor. A court case was filed, with an associated injunction. The case was filed, IIRC, by the ACLU. The law, including the provisions I described, was struck down by the courts as being an "unfair poll tax".>>

Thank  you.  In that case, the entire law having been struck down, it was merely a case of the system working as it should.  My argument against the entire bill was validated.  Like the poll tax, the bill was seen as black voter suppression or poor voter suppression. 

I will go out on a limb a bit here and guess that the reason the bill fell, despite its "free photo ID" provisions, was that the proponents of the bill were unable to demonstrate a real-life voter fraud hazard that was anywhere near the level of wrongful disenfranchisement that would have resulted from the bill, even with the free photo ID provisions.

BT

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2007, 11:15:29 PM »
Quote
But they've precious little evidence to prove that point, being unable to produce even one Indiana voter who couldn't cast a ballot because of the photo ID law. The same lack of evidence was present in similar cases in Georgia and Washington state.

There is documented voter fraud. In Indiana there was no one presented who was disenfranchised because of the law.

http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071231/COMMENTARY/127201184

Michael Tee

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2008, 02:18:50 PM »
<<In Indiana there was no one presented who was disenfranchised because of the law.>>

That's a little ridiculous.  The lawsuit was launched in spring of 2005 after the law had been passed and before an election had been held.  Of course they couldn't find anyone who had been disenfranchised by the law, the point of the lawsuit being to kill the law before it could disenfranchise anyone.

The ACLU brief clearly indicated that there were plenty of people who WOULD be disenfranchised by the law:

<<Moreover, there are unnamed members of the NAACP who have indicated that the law will prevent them from
voting.
(Bohannan Deposition, Attachment 10 at 18, R.Doc. 62). USA [another NGO supporting the brief] also has members who will be discouraged from voting because of the new statute. (Niemier Deposition, Attachment 7 at 23-24, 38-39, R.Doc. 62).>>

<<The evidence is clear that homeless persons, some of whom are members of ICCHI by virtue of the fact that they receive services from provider agencies of ICCHI, have extreme difficulty in obtaining photo identification. (Brief of Rep. Crawford and the interested groups at 23-24).>>

http://www.brennancenter.org/dynamic/subpages/download_file_50803.pdf

The arguments against standard-quality or even state-of-the-art fingerprinting or retinal-scan technology on-site are ludicrous; my daughter's Equinox health club in Manhattan has retinal scanners for its VIP section.  For a country prepared to spend hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of Amerikkkan lives allegedly so the fucking Afghans or Iraqis can have "democracy," it's absolutely ludicrous to contend that the cost of simple ID tech to protect the voting rights of American citizens is "prohibitive." 


BT

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2008, 03:42:00 PM »
What is so difficult about obtaining photo ID? Is it any more onerous than signing up for services from ICCHI?


sirs

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2008, 03:46:03 PM »
What is so difficult about obtaining photo ID? Is it any more onerous than signing up for services from ICCHI?

It isn't.  But without such, it's much easier to get the same person to vote multiple times, even if they're dead.  And surpise, they nearly all vote Democrat.  Go figure
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2008, 06:01:04 PM »
<<What is so difficult about obtaining photo ID? Is it any more onerous than signing up for services from ICCHI?>>

If you read the brief that I linked to, you would see the problems.  For the homeless, in particular, they often have no proof of where they were born, paid no taxes, left no paper trail that could be used.  Evidence was cited from the Indiana BMV that 60% of the people who show up in their offices for driver permits have to be sent back home for lack of documentation.  Similar problems await the elderly.  It is not as easy as you think it should be for certain sectors of the population.

Keep in mind that the bill's true objectives will be realized if it merely makes it difficult or onerous for some people to vote.  Thus for poor or working poor people to make the trip to the government offices, get sent back for lack of proper documentation, having to write for a birth certificate before returning, returning again maybe to get sent back again, and having to come in yet again to pick up the photo ID when ready, creates a sort of obstacle course that not everyone who starts the course will finish.  Thus the Republicans hope to disenfranchise not only those voters who CANNOT get photo ID, but those as well who can't make the sustained effort to get it.  It's an obstacle course, designed as such, and one which, as the brief indicates, will in fact prevent or discourage certain voters, usually the poor, the black and the elderly, from voting.

And here again we see the almost total disconnect between the Republican rank and file and reality.  The Republican leaders who organize the project, of course, have no such disconnect.  They know all too well what the effect of their bill will be in the real world.  But the rank and file, who know very little of the real world, live in some fantasyland where photo ID is freely available to all for the asking.  Reality, as the ACLU brief clearly shows, is something entirely different.

BT

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2008, 06:16:55 PM »
How do the homeless meet residency requirements when registering to vote?

Are they unconstitutional also?


Michael Tee

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2008, 06:33:47 PM »
<<How do the homeless meet residency requirements when registering to vote?>>

I would guess that they're pretty well known individually to the organizations which care for them, feed and shelter them.  It's not as if they can dine out at a different restaurant every night.  Most of these organizations have their regulars.  Which is not to say that some of them don't fall between the cracks.   But there's probably a good solid body of homeless people who are known to the local relief organizations.

_JS

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2008, 06:40:50 PM »
What is so difficult about obtaining photo ID? Is it any more onerous than signing up for services from ICCHI?

It isn't.  But without such, it's much easier to get the same person to vote multiple times, even if they're dead.  And surpise, they nearly all vote Democrat.  Go figure

Evidence?
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Michael Tee

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2008, 06:42:56 PM »
<<Evidence?>>

Evidence?  from SIRS??   BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Amianthus

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Re: What to do when you don't believe you can legitimately win elections
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2008, 06:43:46 PM »
Evidence?

Sauerbrey / Glendening election, Maryland, 1998

Nearly 3,000 dead people voted for the Democrat.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)