Author Topic: Obama's War  (Read 7553 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2010, 12:07:16 AM »
Good question. 

I'm not happy with my earlier answers in this thread, either.

Given that the elections are fatally flawed, being foreign-shaped and foreign-dictated, and lacking in the participation of all elements of the population, what is the value of five years of relative peace following an election?  Especially considering that in the absence of the invasion, they could have had the same five years of relative peace, only enforced by Saddam's people instead of foreign-installed people.

Suppose that after five years another Saddam, either Shi'a or Sunni, takes over.  Is the operation a total failure if they got five relatively non-despotic years out of it?

What if the price of ANY stability and freedom from despotism was purchased at the price of a million dead Iraqis?  Was THAT worth it?  What if the price was total loss of Iraqi control over 50% or 60% or 70% or 80% of the revenues of the oilfields?  Was THAT worth it?

I'll tell you what a better answer would have been.  I don't think anyone can establish an equation or a formula where the violent deaths of a million Iraqis plus the loss of a certain portion of the nation's oil revenues is "worth"  a certain degree of political progress towards Western-style democracy.  Would our domestic criminal law regard a murder as justified if it resulted in a certain degree of social benefit?

I don't have the time to pursue this line of thought much further but I would certainly like to come back to it later.

Plane

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2010, 07:11:23 PM »
Good question. 

I'm not happy with my earlier answers in this thread, either.

Given that the elections are fatally flawed, being foreign-shaped and foreign-dictated, and lacking in the participation of all elements of the population, what is the value of five years of relative peace following an election?  Especially considering that in the absence of the invasion, they could have had the same five years of relative peace, only enforced by Saddam's people instead of foreign-installed people.

Suppose that after five years another Saddam, either Shi'a or Sunni, takes over.  Is the operation a total failure if they got five relatively non-despotic years out of it?

What if the price of ANY stability and freedom from despotism was purchased at the price of a million dead Iraqis?  Was THAT worth it?  What if the price was total loss of Iraqi control over 50% or 60% or 70% or 80% of the revenues of the oilfields?  Was THAT worth it?

I'll tell you what a better answer would have been.  I don't think anyone can establish an equation or a formula where the violent deaths of a million Iraqis plus the loss of a certain portion of the nation's oil revenues is "worth"  a certain degree of political progress towards Western-style democracy.  Would our domestic criminal law regard a murder as justified if it resulted in a certain degree of social benefit?

I don't have the time to pursue this line of thought much further but I would certainly like to come back to it later.


Mao thought that killing half of the Chineese woulde worthwile if it made China better.

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2010, 01:31:51 AM »
<<Mao thought that killing half of the Chineese woulde worthwile if it made China better.>>

Where'd he say that? 

I know at the time of the Cuban missile crisis, he and Fidel both thought that the U.S.S.R. should stand its ground even if it came to a nuclear exchange with the U.S.A. since the Eastern Bloc could absorb a much higher casualty level than the U.S. could and would still come out the winners.  But I never heard the comment that you attribute to him.

Plane

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2010, 09:00:30 PM »
<<Mao thought that killing half of the Chineese woulde worthwile if it made China better.>>

Where'd he say that? 

I know at the time of the Cuban missile crisis, he and Fidel both thought that the U.S.S.R. should stand its ground even if it came to a nuclear exchange with the U.S.A. since the Eastern Bloc could absorb a much higher casualty level than the U.S. could and would still come out the winners.  But I never heard the comment that you attribute to him.

     You are admitting that they had an incredably bad attitude reguarding wasting the lives of the people.





     Since we agree on this point, what further need I look for?

Plane

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2010, 09:26:10 PM »



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotations_from_Chairman_Mao


I liked this one myself.
Quote
“Passivity is fatal to us. Our goal is to make the enemy passive.”

 
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/mao_tse-tung/4.html


Quote
"Thousands upon thousands of martyrs have heroically laid down their lives for the people; let us hold their banner high and march ahead along the path crimson with their blood. "
Most of these quotes are boilerplate that could have come from anywhere , I am not actually finding anything that reveils what limits Chairman Mao had on the sacrifice he might ask for, if any limit were ever implied I would like to find it.

Not finding such an enumerated limit doesn't really prove much. I think that  if there were a limit in his mind there would be few he could safely tell it . The limits of the peoples will and willingness would have been a good secret to keep if he actually knew them.When George WAshington or Winston Chirchill gave rousing speeches they didn't usually include an escape clause for the occasion that things got just  too harsh , that would simply have become the target of the enemy.

We have  better evidence of his attitude,  the numbers of dead he was willing to tolerate on projects like the" great leap forward"  the defense of the North Korean Government or the colectivisation of agriculture.
http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Mao/Mao-19-Revolutionary-Heroism.html
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 09:52:08 PM by Plane »

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2010, 10:13:03 PM »
Chairman Mao had a solid appreciation of the depths of the suffering and poverty of the Chinese people and the underdevelopment of the nation.   Knowing better than any Western statesman or commentator how long and hard the way forward would be, and how abysmal the Chinese starting position, I think would make him more prepared than, say, FDR or Churchill, or perhaps even Stalin, to tolerate the greatest conceivable sacrifices in order to clear the way to a brighter future for his people.  The sacrifices of the millions would pave the way forward for the billions.

Frankly, I think any judgment on Mao based on the sacrifices he exacted from his own people are hollow and meaningless from any source, but particularly from Western sources, who have no real idea of the challenges that had to be overcome.  The proof of Mao's statesmanship is to be found in today's China, risen from the depths of foreign exploitation and oppression and now poised on the brink of becoming the world leader.  Mao's way was the only way.

Plane

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2010, 10:44:26 PM »
I doubt Maos genius.

I do not even know if he appreaciated how much he made the condition of the common man in China worse.

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2010, 11:27:04 PM »
<<I doubt Maos genius.>>

I respect your opinion, but I have a very hard time understanding how anybody could doubt Mao's genius regardless of what side of the ideological line he was on.  This guy spearheaded a movement that turned Chinese destiny around 180 degrees; someone like that comes along just a handful of times in China's entire history.

<<I do not even know if he appreaciated how much he made the condition of the common man in China worse.>>

They were starting from rock bottom - - nobody could have made the condition of the common man in China worse, IMHO.

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2010, 11:50:38 PM »
Here was the original question that I had posed that I thought was kind of interesting:

<<I don't think anyone can establish an equation or a formula where the violent deaths of a million Iraqis plus the loss of a certain portion of the nation's oil revenues is "worth"  a certain degree of political progress towards Western-style democracy.  Would our domestic criminal law regard a murder as justified if it resulted in a certain degree of social benefit?>>

Somehow this has degenerated into an examination of the alleged evil nature of Chairman Mao.    Does no one have any thoughts on my question as originally put?  plane?  anyone?

BT

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2010, 12:29:02 AM »
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Would our domestic criminal law regard a murder as justified if it resulted in a certain degree of social benefit

It already does.

That man just needed killin' is a valid defense in many a state.

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2010, 12:50:07 AM »
<<That man just needed killin' is a valid defense in many a state. >>

No it is not.  At most it is the rationale of a jury nullification, an example of the system malfunctioning.

BT

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2010, 12:57:29 AM »
Quote
No it is not.  At most it is the rationale of a jury nullification, an example of the system malfunctioning.

Sometimes the system is sidestepped.

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2010, 01:00:12 AM »
<<Sometimes the system is sidestepped. >>

So you agree that the system never can justify murder in terms of the social benefit gained.

What do you think of the people who sidestepped the system?

BT

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2010, 01:04:43 AM »
Quote
So you agree that the system never can justify murder in terms of the social benefit gained.

That is the complete opposite of what I said.

But perhaps you are confused and believe there is but one system.


BT

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Re: Obama's War
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2010, 01:05:44 AM »
Quote
What do you think of the people who sidestepped the system?

Depends on their motivation.