The Commies Finally Get It!

[Xavier_Onassis]

Argentina and Uruguay are much better off than Mexico. Buenos Aires is a very elegant city, but it looks like it was maintained by Mexicans. The public buildings are after the Parisian/Madrid style, and are quite elegant. There are some really beautiful private buildings, but they are covered with some sort of black goo that seems to be mildew. They could use a good steam-cleaning. The provincial capitals of Corrientes and Misiones (Posadas) are very nice. Sidewalks tend to be made of tiles, and many are broken and need repair.

I spend about a week in Montevideo, and it is cleaner than most of Buenos Aires, and less congested. The main thing you notice is that Uruguayans drink huge, almost impossible amounts of mate. Nearly everyone is toting a mate pot as well as a thermos, there are lots of places where you can fill your thermos, and there are little piles of mate herb on all the major streets. Mate is not sold in restaurants, but they will bring you hot water for free if you order anything. Streets and sidewalks in downtown Montevideo are in better shape than in Buenos Aires.

I have not been to Cuba, but the society is different and the culture is different, and  infrastructure maintenance does not seem to be a priority. Cuba is having a rice shortage at the moment, and this is as bad as a rice shortage would be in China: all meals include rice. The Revolution was quiet successful in making all the youth wanting to be like El Che. The unfortunate thing is that El Che was not a farmer, and no one seems to want to grow anything. Cuba should be able to be independent on basic staples like rice and beans, pork and chickens, but this is not the case.

[Michael Tee]

You gotta talk to the Cuban people.  The young ones obviously don't give a shit about the Revolution, all they care about is designer apparel and music, but even they know the difference that the Revolution made in the lives of their parents and grandparents.  All the kids are in school, they have a pride and a dignity that I have never seen anywhere else in Latin America.  Cuba was revolutionized by the Revolution.  (I know, tautology time.)  I agree there is a problem in that the current generation seems to be lacking in Revolutionary zeal.  Perhaps they need a few years back under fascist rule in order to appreciate what they have now.  The education of all citizens and the abolition of illiteracy is a miracle.  So is the universal availability of medical care under revolutionary conditions (those patients who can, and their able-bodied visiting family members,  contribute to the maintenance of the hospital, cleaning floors, making beds, etc.)  The revolutionary spirit was inspiring and amazing. 

The spirit of capitalism is competition, but the spirit of socialism is cooperation and communal effort.  It is so clearly and obviously the better way. 

I like Uruguay too, but only saw it on a cruise - - a day in Montevideo, a great city, and a day in Punta del Este, a great resort town ("the Miami Beach of South America," but I'll believe that when I see the equivalent of Ocean Drive in Punta.)

[Xavier_Onassis]

"the Miami Beach of South America," but I'll believe that when I see the equivalent of Ocean Drive in Punta.)
================================================

I preferred Ocean Drive back in the late 70's. You could find a place to park then, and there were some great used clothing shops on Lincoln Road.

I have several good friends who came here from Cuba in the last ten years, and who travel back every several months. The big problems there now is the lack of food. A fertile country like Cuba should not have food shortages, toilet paper shortages and even salt shortages. No island on the ocean should ever have salt shortages, face it. I am unimpressed with the education provided by the Revolution.

I'd prefer living in Argentina, Uruguay or most of Mexico to living in Cuba.

[Michael Tee]

<<I am unimpressed with the education provided by the Revolution.>>

What do you think is wrong with it?

[Xavier_Onassis]

That the Cubans I know do not read or know much about anything. They believe pretty much any stupid thing that they hear on local TV, including obvious rumors. They cannot spell Spanish worth beans, which has to be one of the easiest languages in the world to spell.

[Plane]

<<[Batista] did not require half so much violence to maintain his regime as Fidel Castro needs.>>

What on earth are you talking about?  Batista had torture chambers in every city and town in the country.  Who the hell did you think were being executed against the walls of the Havana baseball stadium in the first days of the Triumph of the Revolution?  Sunday school teachers?

<<I thought you were telling me that people always run from the poor country s to the welthy ones?

<<Is Cuba really that much more poor than it was?>>

Didn't I just deal with that point?  Under Batista, they'd be sent back, so what was the point?  Under Fidel, they'd be welcomed with open arms and never sent back, just to embarrass Fidel.  Poverty motivates some people to flee the country, but when there's no place for them to go, they don't go.  When a place suddenly opens up, they go.   Is this really all that hard to understand? 

Well yes it is hard to understand how this policy would stop Cubans when it won't stop Mexicans.

Cuba has less torture and repression now than under Batista?

Then why wasn't there an exodus nearly as large from Batista?

Got some examples of Cubans going on desperate 90 mile swims to get away from Batista?

All of the real evidence is one way.

On the other hand you have actually been to Cuba , where I only imagine the scene to be like this.

"Hola Comrade!"

"Buenos dias senior MT"

"How are things? Compadre."

" Eh, I can't complain"

" What do you mean you can't complain?"

" It is forbidden."

[Michael Tee]

<<Well yes it is hard to understand how this policy would stop Cubans when it won't stop Mexicans.>>

Think about it.  It's a lot easier for the Mexicans to get to the U.S. than it is for the Cubans.  There's no open ocean to cross.

<<Cuba has less torture and repression now than under Batista?>>

Of course.

<<Then why wasn't there an exodus nearly as large from Batista?>>

Leave, get caught by the U.S. and sent back to Batista and you'll have a bigger problem than what you started with.  You'd be returned to a country oversupplied with torture chambers and ruled by a dictator who knows you're pretty unhappy with him and his regime.  Not a very happy ending to a voyage that began with such great hopes of streets paved with gold bricks.

OTOH, leave Cuba to escape Castro and you will NEVER NEVER NEVER be sent back.  Big difference, even though for some unfathomable reason, you never seem to be able to grasp it.  

I'll try to make it real simple for you.  Hopefully, you'll agree with me that not too many young men from the Greater Los Angeles area leave their homes and jobs to try to break into the Playboy Mansion and live there.  They know the gates will be closed to them and even if they sneak in, they'll be found and kicked out.  

Now suppose Hef makes it known that anyone from Venice Beach who makes it onto the grounds of the Playboy Mansion can stay there for life and will never be kicked out.  You're an imaginative guy.  Try to imagine how many young men from Venice Beach had  left everything behind and tried to break into the mansion before Hef made his generous offer.   Try to imagine how many would do so after Hef's announcement  became known.  Think there'd be any noticeable before/after difference?  Think the number of guys from Venice Beach trying to get into the Mansion would become any higher than the number of guys from Long Beach or Compton or Van Nuys or Santa Monica or El Segundo trying to get in?  I dunno, plane, you tell me.  Inquiring minds need to know.

<<Got some examples of Cubans going on desperate 90 mile swims to get away from Batista?>>

No, but then you don't have any examples of Cubans going on desperate 90 mile swims to get away from Castro, so we're even.

<<All of the real evidence is one way.>>

The problem is, you don't have any "real evidence," only MSM bullshit stories of people swimming 90 miles.  You don't know how to interpret "real evidence" anyway, because you make heroic efforts never to try to put it into context, even when that context is never further away from you than the nightly TV news.  "Real evidence" would probably show the flow of refugees from Mexico is dwarfing the flow from Cuba and is probably followed closely by the flow from El Salvador and Honduras as well, but since Mexico, El Salvador and Honduras are all capitalist countries, there is no reason to set up a giant lure in the form of free admission to all new arrivals and furthermore, there is no way that their flight can constitute "real evidence" of the failure of capitalism.  

It seems that it is only the flight from Cuba that can constitute "real evidence" of the failure of communism.  The flight of millions more from capitalist countries proves actually nothing at all.  That is just plane logic.  And it is hilarious.

However, since I see that you are a fellow who loves the truth and is very interested in "real evidence," try to imagine a scientific experiment.  Try to imagine a six-month period in which the U.S., instead of granting free admission to all Cubans, warns them that all new Cuban immigrants will be rounded up and sent back to Cuba without exception and that in the same six-month period, all Mexicans who make it into the U.S.A. will be welcomed with open arms.  IMHO, not only would Mexico suffer major depopulation, but the experiment would prove conclusively whether or not the Cubans are better off than the Mexicans.

<<On the other hand you have actually been to Cuba , where I only imagine the scene to be like this . . . >>

I think, when all the "real evidence" you have is as pathetically shitty and inconclusive as what you've shown us, you're better off sticking to lame anti-communist jokes dating back to the beginning of the Cold War and forgetting about evidence and "real evidence" completely.

[Plane]

<<Then why wasn't there an exodus nearly as large from Batista?>>

Leave, get caught by the U.S. and sent back to Batista and you'll have a bigger problem than what you started with.  Now you're living in a country oversupplied with torture chambers and ruled by a dictator who knows you're pretty unhappy with him.  Not a good result.

This is exactly what has gotten worse.

<<Well yes it is hard to understand how this policy would stop Cubans when it won't stop Mexicans.>>

Think about it.  It's a lot easier for the Mexicans to get to the U.S. than it is for the Cubans.

You havent thought about it have you ?

It is a LOT harder for Cubans to get here and they get sent back if they are caught at sea , even by one inch.

Mexico is not exporting as many job seekers right now , there are fewer jobs right now , the tide is reversed a little bit.

But Cubans are escapeing starvation and dictitorial repression they still make the trip even if only on an inner tube.

Can you imagine the desparation that brings on such a nearly suicidal act? And the commoness of this extreme desparation?

If Cuba were not being heavily subsidised by cousins and uncles in the USA they would collapse quickly. Their economy is incredably weak this shineing example of communistic ideals is dependant on the much more profitable exile community.

I wonder what would have happened if the whole world had become Communist and there had been no capitolists to beg or borrow money from?
Human extinction perhaps?

[Michael Tee]

<<This is exactly what has gotten worse.>>

Not following you, I'm afraid.  WHAT is "exactly what has gotten worse?"

<<It is a LOT harder for Cubans to get here and they get sent back if they are caught at sea , even by one inch.>>

And how many get caught at sea?  Who's looking for them anyway?  They're a propaganda bonanza when they land, and a political hot potato when returned.  It's a no-brainer - - America wants 'em to land, America doesn't want to return them.

<<Mexico is not exporting as many job seekers right now , there are fewer jobs right now , the tide is reversed a little bit.>>

Ha ha ha, you got any numbers on that little absurdity?  I'm betting that even if the Mexican flow were cut to 25% of its usual volume, it would still dwarf the number of incoming Cubans.

<<But Cubans are escapeing starvation and dictitorial repression . . . >>

That is just pure bullshit.

<< . . . they still make the trip even if only on an inner tube.>>

Ever seen one of 'em come in on an inner tube?  How many you think really come in on inner tubes?  You're talking nonsense.

<<Can you imagine the desparation that brings on such a nearly suicidal act? >>

No but I can imagine the desperation of anyone who makes up bullshit stories like that.

<<And the commoness of this extreme desparation?>>

Common according to whom?  Got anything to back that up?  I didn't think so.

<<If Cuba were not being heavily subsidised by cousins and uncles in the USA they would collapse quickly. >>

And you know this because . . . ?

<<Their economy is incredably weak this shineing example of communistic ideals is dependant on the much more profitable exile community.>>

They're being blockaded by the most powerful country in the world, but I guess that has absolutely nothing to do with their economic problems, does it?  The blockade isn't working, it has no effect on the Cuban economy, but it's maintained year after year after year by the U.S. because . . . ?  Because it's NOT working?   Does this make sense to anyone?

<<I wonder what would have happened if the whole world had become Communist and there had been no capitolists to beg or borrow money from?>>

We like to think it would be the end of the exploitation of man by man.

<<Human extinction perhaps?>>

No, I think you might have confused communism with U.S. imperialism, fascism, racism and militarism.  Nice try, though.

[Michael Tee]

<<That the Cubans I know do not read or know much about anything. >>

Is this any particular demographic that you are referring to?   

Did you visit Ciudad Universidad, the KG-to-grad-school complex built on the site of a former Cuban Army barracks in the heart of Havana?  We met a group of elementary school students there marching from one class to another, and they struck me as pretty sharp kids.  At least they knew something about Canada, which is more than most Mexican kids will ever know.

<<They believe pretty much any stupid thing that they hear on local TV, including obvious rumors.>>

Were you thinking of any particular examples?

<< They cannot spell Spanish worth beans, which has to be one of the easiest languages in the world to spell. >>

Sorry to hear that, but you know how many secretarial applicants I had to turn down before Spell-Check because they couldn't spell English worth shit?  I think that was a particular trend in educational circles in the Seventies, not to obsess over spelling because it would "stifle their creativity" or some such nonsense.  In Ontario, there were a whole bunch of educational "reforms" based on something called the Hall-Baker Report, which as far as I could see was just a recipe for creating illiterate morons.

Did you meet any of the politically committed, the members of a CDR, for example?

Although your comments would certainly apply to some of the young kids we met in Cuba, I am finding it hard to reconcile them with what I know of the medical schools and scientific research in Cuba, including the surplus of medical doctors and their export to other Caribbean and Latin American countries.  Any comment on that?

[Amianthus]

OTOH, leave Cuba to escape Castro and you will NEVER NEVER NEVER be sent back.  Big difference, even though for some unfathomable reason, you never seem to be able to grasp it. 

Funny, we send Cubans back nearly daily currently.

[Plane]

OTOH, leave Cuba to escape Castro and you will NEVER NEVER NEVER be sent back.  Big difference, even though for some unfathomable reason, you never seem to be able to grasp it. 

Funny, we send Cubans back nearly daily currently.

Yes this makes me feel sorry for the Coast Guard , to be tasked with enforceing the Wet foot dry foot policy.

I hate seeing really stupid policy being enforced, so must many enforcers.

[Plane]

The spirit of capitalism is competition, but the spirit of socialism is cooperation and communal effort.  It is so clearly and obviously the better way. 

In what capitalist country is co-operation and harmony discouraged?

[Plane]

<<I wonder what would have happened if the whole world had become Communist and there had been no capitolists to beg or borrow money from?>>

We like to think it would be the end of the exploitation of man by man.

<<Human extinction perhaps?>>

No, I think you might have confused communism with U.S. imperialism, fascism, racism and militarism.  Nice try, though.

I guess human extinction would indeed end the exploitation of man by man , so .. good answer.

I am afraid that some people are so enamored of communism that they wouldn't mind human extinction if it was done with plenty of communism.

[Plane]

one of the curious aspect of slavery is the masters actually think slaves should be greatful. actually conquerers in general tend to believe their the rescuer. the rational of slavery is quite bizarre

Oh yes !

You got my point exactly !

Communists describe the ungratfull as worms , if they would rather be individually free than chained to a nation that is only nationally free.