Dangers of the Modern World

[Amianthus]

None of us here NEED a computer, though it would be more difficult for me to get by on the ancient Windows 2000 thing that the University provides me with.

It's required for my job. So, yes, I NEED a computer.

[Universe Prince]

Does the market have wisdom?

Or need it?

In answer to your first question, no, the market does not have wisdom in the manner that, say, a person has wisdom. The market is an abstract, a concept. It is not a place or an entity. It is a name for the decentralized order of the actions of people, usually economic actions. In answer to your second question, the answer is also no.

[fatman]

From a strictly theoretical point Prince, I'd submit that accumulating goods beyond the necessary could be considered greed.  I like my comforts as well as the next guy, but I think that I can see what the Pope is saying.

By no means do I advocate legislating this, or requiring people to purchase only necessities.  As a guideline to follow in someone's personal life, I think that it merits some consideration, at least as far as reducing consumption, but that is each and every person's personal choice and decision.

[Universe Prince]

Were it not for the inane SUV craze, gas prices would be more reasonable, because there would be more available.

As best I can tell this is not at all true. Gas prices might be marginally lower, but the popularity of SUV is not what has driven up the price of gasoline.

Left entirely up to the market, there are panics, crises, recessions and depressions on a cyclical basis.

Actually, left entirely to the market, there are cycles of economic growth and recession (not panics and crises), but this is not a bad thing as some people might claim. It would in fact be quite healthy, not entirely unlike the natural ups and downs of the stock market, with a net growth result. And most recessions would be relatively short. Part of the problem, and what generally is the root cause of panics and crises is that the government meddles with the market in attempt to impose wisdom, most of which is actually foolish and unnecessary.

There were none during the Clinton years because actions were taken to keep the economy on an even keel.

That may be the best joke you've told here in some time, Xavier.

[Universe Prince]

From a strictly theoretical point Prince, I'd submit that accumulating goods beyond the necessary could be considered greed.  I like my comforts as well as the next guy, but I think that I can see what the Pope is saying.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying there is not greed in our society, or that most folks could not stand to reduce their consumption of goods and services. What I have a problem with is people who have computers and possible multiple vehicles, and probably more than one television, and something besides generic brand bare necessities stocked in their pantries complaining about "consumer greed". What I have a problem with is the assumption that most people only buy an SUV or fancy clothes or computer games because of greed or lust.

And I say all this not as a criticism of you, Fatman. Your comment was good, and for the most part I think I agree with you. I'm just using your comment as a springboard to explain my own position more fully.

Yes, some people are excessively focused on having things. But in my own obviously selfish and lustful opinion, I don't do myself favors by thinking of my neighbors (and I don't just mean the people who live next door) as greedy people who cannot control their baser impulses. Not everyone, and I would guess this is true for most people, who buys an SUV is doing so to just to say they have an SUV. There are other considerations. Not that long ago, as I recall, there was a poll that asked people who bought hybrid cars why they bought the particular one they, um, bought. If not a majority then a large percentage of Toyota Prius owners, as I recall, said they bought a Prius because it is only offered as a hybrid, and so therefore makes a statement to other people about the owner being concerned about the environment. Supposedly all those folks who have an SUV to impress the neighbors are guilty of consumer greed, but I don't see anyone here accusing Prius owners of consumer greed.

I don't say consumer greed does not exist. But I question whether it is something with which we should be trying to paint our society. Ours is a wealthy society, by and large, and frankly, I find that to be a good thing. Most people in this country are not stuck as farmers or in some social/economic caste where they must work all their lives. Most people are able to pursue happiness and to provide for their families and give to the poor and needy. I, in my obvious selfishness and greed, happen to think this is good and would like to see this spread to more of our society and to other nations. So I suppose I find some offense when people talk as if this is something inherently bad about our society, as if we are all somehow a nation of greedy, selfish people who only desire to accumulate things for ourselves. Yes, some people are like that, but I guess I am too optimistic to believe that most people are like that.

[Cynthia]

"Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying there is not greed in our society, or that most folks could not stand to reduce their consumption of goods and services. What I have a problem with is people who have computers and possible multiple vehicles, and probably more than one television, and something besides generic brand bare necessities stocked in their pantries complaining about "consumer greed". What I have a problem with is the assumption that most people only buy an SUV or fancy clothes or computer games because of greed or lust."


I believe that is what the Pope was trying to say, at the end of the day.

[Universe Prince]

I believe that is what the Pope was trying to say, at the end of the day.

Perhaps. Seems to me that "I'm not saying most folks could not stand to reduce their consumption of goods and services" has meaning significantly different than saying that the earth "groans under the weight of consumerist greed and irresponsible exploitation".

[Cynthia]

I believe that is what the Pope was trying to say, at the end of the day.

Perhaps. Seems to me that "I'm not saying most folks could not stand to reduce their consumption of goods and services" has meaning significantly different than saying that the earth "groans under the weight of consumerist greed and irresponsible exploitation".

But, there is potential groaning because of such greed...or waste, UP. You can't see that?

[Plane]

Is a phrase like that intentionally vague ,  Or am I misunderstanding it ?

[Cynthia]

Is a phrase like that intentionally vague ,  Or am I misunderstanding it ?

LOL....re read it...sounds strange.

Hey, look....I think we are a super sized world, and there is a potential for such waste and ruin, imo.

I believe that people need to be more responsible with the "goodies" we are given. . "WE" Sure, we all have to "groan" in order to help the battle against a ruin of the earth's resources.

Do you brush your teeth while the water is running? Do you turn it off, and then rinse?

Do you wash your dishes using a dishwasher, or scrub those plates with soap, and rinse.....with just enough water to do the job?
Ok, funny as those little examples come across.....there are so many little things we can do in the life that make a huge difference.

We are seeing more of those changes all around us, if we pay attention.

OK....Recycling....sure, it's not a perfect system yet....but surely a better alternative than what we used to see 40 years ago.....throwing the empty soda cans into the river! Minor examples in a world that once was innocent and yet so damn toxic.

There is more we can do to help this world. I believe what UP said is true.
"most folks could stand a reduction in goods and services"

I didn't know that the Pope had all those brands of canned goods in his pantry. He's the one complaining about Consumer Greed, last time I read the article.

[Cynthia]

"I don't say consumer greed does not exist."


I believe it exists, as well, Prince. How do we differ?

Yes, some people are like that, but I guess I am too optimistic to believe that most people are like that.


Agree, again.

[Universe Prince]

But, there is potential groaning because of such greed...or waste, UP. You can't see that?

Ahem.

Yes, some people are excessively focused on having things. But in my own obviously selfish and lustful opinion, I don't do myself favors by thinking of my neighbors (and I don't just mean the people who live next door) as greedy people who cannot control their baser impulses. Not everyone, and I would guess this is true for most people, who buys an SUV is doing so to just to say they have an SUV. There are other considerations. Not that long ago, as I recall, there was a poll that asked people who bought hybrid cars why they bought the particular one they, um, bought. If not a majority then a large percentage of Toyota Prius owners, as I recall, said they bought a Prius because it is only offered as a hybrid, and so therefore makes a statement to other people about the owner being concerned about the environment. Supposedly all those folks who have an SUV to impress the neighbors are guilty of consumer greed, but I don't see anyone here accusing Prius owners of consumer greed.

I don't say consumer greed does not exist. But I question whether it is something with which we should be trying to paint our society. Ours is a wealthy society, by and large, and frankly, I find that to be a good thing. Most people in this country are not stuck as farmers or in some social/economic caste where they must work all their lives. Most people are able to pursue happiness and to provide for their families and give to the poor and needy. I, in my obvious selfishness and greed, happen to think this is good and would like to see this spread to more of our society and to other nations. So I suppose I find some offense when people talk as if this is something inherently bad about our society, as if we are all somehow a nation of greedy, selfish people who only desire to accumulate things for ourselves. Yes, some people are like that, but I guess I am too optimistic to believe that most people are like that.

[Cynthia]

But, there is potential groaning because of such greed...or waste, UP. You can't see that?

Ahem.

Yes, some people are excessively focused on having things. But in my own obviously selfish and lustful opinion, I don't do myself favors by thinking of my neighbors (and I don't just mean the people who live next door) as greedy people who cannot control their baser impulses. Not everyone, and I would guess this is true for most people, who buys an SUV is doing so to just to say they have an SUV. There are other considerations. Not that long ago, as I recall, there was a poll that asked people who bought hybrid cars why they bought the particular one they, um, bought. If not a majority then a large percentage of Toyota Prius owners, as I recall, said they bought a Prius because it is only offered as a hybrid, and so therefore makes a statement to other people about the owner being concerned about the environment. Supposedly all those folks who have an SUV to impress the neighbors are guilty of consumer greed, but I don't see anyone here accusing Prius owners of consumer greed.

I don't say consumer greed does not exist. But I question whether it is something with which we should be trying to paint our society. Ours is a wealthy society, by and large, and frankly, I find that to be a good thing. Most people in this country are not stuck as farmers or in some social/economic caste where they must work all their lives. Most people are able to pursue happiness and to provide for their families and give to the poor and needy. I, in my obvious selfishness and greed, happen to think this is good and would like to see this spread to more of our society and to other nations. So I suppose I find some offense when people talk as if this is something inherently bad about our society, as if we are all somehow a nation of greedy, selfish people who only desire to accumulate things for ourselves. Yes, some people are like that, but I guess I am too optimistic to believe that most people are like that.

I read this post, dear man.
I agree.

[Universe Prince]

I believe it exists, as well, Prince. How do we differ?

Well, you seem to keep claiming that all or most people in our society are guilty of consumer greed. I do not.

Yes, some people are like that, but I guess I am too optimistic to believe that most people are like that.

Agree, again.

Do you? "Consumer greed....we are all guilty of that one."

[Xavier_Onassis]

Actually, left entirely to the market, there are cycles of economic growth and recession (not panics and crises), but this is not a bad thing as some people might claim. It would in fact be quite healthy, not entirely unlike the natural ups and downs of the stock market, with a net growth result. And most recessions would be relatively short.

=====================================
This is balderdash, and completely UNTRUE.

The Great Depression was not relatively short. It lasted
 all through the 1930's.

The price of gasoline is determined by the rate of consumption. When the rate dropped in the 1980's because of cafe standards, the price dropped. Then the SUV craze was inflicted upon us and it rose. It is supply and demand. The lower the demand, the more the supply and the lower the price.

During the Clinton years, there were very few disruptions to the economy and it was the longest period of sustained growth in history,. You can deny the facts all you wish, but they are still the facts.