Author Topic: Guns cost more lives than they save  (Read 2045 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Guns cost more lives than they save
« on: June 19, 2015, 05:04:30 PM »

Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 08:30 PM EDT
Guns cost more lives than they save
Tucson should be a reminder: There is just no reason for unrestricted gun ownership
Gene Lyons

   Topics: Gun Control, Jared Loughner, War Room, Politics News
Guns cost more lives than they save
Law enforcement personnel work on a crime scene where U.S Representative Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) was shot along with others at a Safeway in Tucson, Arizona January 8, 2011. Rep. Giffords, 40, a Democrat, took office in January 2007, emphasizing issues such as immigration reform, embryonic stem-cell research, alternative energy sources and a higher minimum wage. Giffords was alive but in surgery at a hospital on Saturday after a shooting that also injured at least nine other people, a hospital spokeswoman said. REUTERS/Eric Thayer (UNITED STATES - Tags: POLITICS CIVIL UNREST CRIME LAW)(Credit: Reuters)

Some years ago, I reported on a self-defense/gun-safety class mainly for women at Rice University. There had been several forcible rapes on the Houston campus. Students had armed themselves. The instructor was an Army ROTC officer. A Vietnam combat veteran, he found the prospect of undergraduates packing heat unsettling, but reasoned that if they were arming themselves anyway, some training was better than none.

Unlike many entrepreneurs teaching “concealed carry” classes from sea to shining sea, he urged students to leave their guns at home. He stressed that he couldn’t turn them into infantry soldiers with a few sessions in a gym basement. Even most armed assailants, he explained, aren’t hell bent upon murder. They use weapons to control their victims.

Anybody pulling a gun must shoot to kill without hesitation. The soldier reasoned that most Rice students simply weren’t prepared to do that. Hence the likeliest outcome was that criminals would end up murdering them with their own guns. Heightened awareness, avoiding lonely places at night, and pepper spray or mace would afford more safety than the illusion of power conveyed by a 9mm semi-automatic.

Our instructor further advised that shotguns are the weapon of choice for home defense. Unlike a heavy-caliber handgun, a shotgun will put an intruder out of business without a bullet passing through a wall and killing a sleeping child. He emphasized that anybody suspecting a nighttime home invasion should first perform a thorough bed check — a procedure that saved me from potential catastrophe one night after my teenage son and a friend sneaked out to howl at the moon under a maiden’s window at 2 a.m., leaving an open back door and a half-dozen beagles running through the house.

Creeping back home, the lads overheard me shucking shells from my 20 gauge pump, an unmistakably chilling sound. Fearing that burglars had taken us hostage, they were subsequently apprehended in headlong flight up the street. They’d been running for help, they explained.

Would I have shot an unknown intruder? I believe so. I’m also glad I’ve never had to face the choice. Killing a human being, almost regardless of provocation, is nothing like hunting game. Never mind legal peril. Contrary to action/adventure films, psychological fallout can be severe.

Anyway, we students next proceeded to the firing range for lessons in loading, unloading and blasting paper targets. “If you can point your finger,” I wrote, “you can learn to kill” — an observation that annoyed almost as many gun fanciers as this column will. Maybe I should have said that I was already fairly good with a shotgun, and had spent half my life aiming balls at things.

Anyway, here’s the thing: In the wake of the Tucson tragedy, handgun advocates argue that a well-armed private citizen could have saved lives by putting a decisive end to alleged gunman Jared Loughner’s mad act. Never mind that Arizona has the most permissive gun laws in the country. Indeed, the killer had broken no laws until he shot Rep. Gabrielle Giffords at point-blank range.

Ah, but there was an armed bystander. His name was Joe Zamudio, and he bravely helped subdue the gunman without firing a shot. But he’s also admitted how close he came to shooting the heroic retired Army colonel who’d wrested the pistol from Loughner’s hands when he paused to reload.

Thanks to the killer’s 30-round ammo clip, he’d gotten off 31 shots in 15 seconds. Fifteen seconds! Everything was chaos and terror.
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In Hollywood films, shootouts are carefully choreographed. Villains can’t shoot; heroes rarely miss. Nobody panics. Melodramatic violence metes out justice and redeems the world.

In reality, as Americans seem fated to experience again and again without learning anything, a gunman walks into a Detroit police station and shoots four cops before himself being killed.

Two cops serving a warrant in St. Petersburg, Fla., are killed and a U.S. marshal wounded by a suspect who escapes.

Two sheriff’s deputies are shot at a Walmart near Seattle before a third officer kills their assailant, whose motives remain unknown.

A policeman in Waldport, Ore., is shot by an unknown assailant during a routine traffic stop. He remains in critical condition.

At another routine stop, an Indianapolis cop is shot four times, twice in the face. He’s in critical condition too.

All of these events occurred within 24 hours between Jan. 23 and 24.

It’s worth emphasizing that the 11 victims were trained, experienced law enforcement officers. But their assailants, who’d found semi-automatic weapons easier to acquire than whiskey, gave them no chance.

Meanwhile, NRA fundamentalists pretend that America will be a freer, safer place if more poorly trained, inexperienced, unfit, would-be Bruce Willis heroes were waddling around shopping malls carrying pistols.

There’s a word for people who cling to absurd beliefs against massive evidence. They’re called cultists, and they’re currently in charge.
Arkansas Times columnist Gene Lyons is a National Magazine Award winner and co-author of "The Hunting of the President" (St. Martin's Press, 2000). You can e-mail Lyons at eugenelyons2@yahoo.com. http://aeon.co/magazine/society/do-guns-save-lives/
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Guns save more lives than they take
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2015, 05:17:37 PM »
Considering that:
a) a life saved is priceless
b) in this country, more lives are saved by a gun, than those taken

....more than refutes the premise of the thread.  But by all means, continue to ignore those facts, click those heels together 3 times, and keep repeating the fallacy that guns kill more than they save.  Whatever makes you feel better 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2015, 06:06:53 PM »
This is NOT TRUE. You cannot make it true by repeating it.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2015, 06:19:49 PM »
Sorry if the truth stings.  Doncha just hate when facts get in the way of such well intended ideology?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2015, 07:33:05 PM »
"Guns cost more lives than they save"
Gene Lyons

I guess since you often dismiss conservative sources...whats good for the goose....

"Gene Lyons is an American political columnist with liberal views"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Lyons
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2015, 09:07:08 PM »
Liberal views are the best kind of views. Conservatives are clueless even about what the fuck they are trying so hard to conserve.
Other than a society ruled by WORMS (White Old Rich Men).
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2015, 12:48:01 AM »

Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 08:30 PM EDT
Guns cost more lives than they save
Gene Lyons

   
There’s a word for people who cling to absurd beliefs against massive evidence. They’re called cultists, and they’re currently in charge.
You can e-mail Lyons at eugenelyons2@yahoo.com. http://aeon.co/magazine/society/do-guns-save-lives/

In charge because this "cult " is a huge voting block, Congressmen have learned by being spanked who is in charge .

This article does not represent a scientific study , it is a collection of incidents which any friend of firearms could equal.

  Now, is this author saying that guns are easy to handle or difficult to master?

   He really seems to have made both points here.

  I agree that a bed check would be wise before shooting an unidentified presence in the hallway.

Plane

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2015, 02:50:46 AM »
Quote
Some years ago, I reported on a self-defense/gun-safety class mainly for women at Rice University. There had been several forcible rapes on the Houston campus. Students had armed themselves.......
   Not a very good reporter, he doesn't say that this was or was not effective against the spate of rapes.

Plane

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2015, 10:45:17 AM »
http://gunssavelives.net/

http://bearingarms.com/category/guns-saving-lives/

http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/gun-save-lives-stories/2014/10/28/id/603652/

There are dozens of sites where incidents of guns benefits are cited .

These are not hard to find , but to someone who doesn't like the idea they must not be very interesting.

The term for this is "confirmation bias" items of information that seem right to a person are more noticed and remembered than items that might indicate a mistake is believed.

Of course practically everyone has confirmation bias, if we ever build a serious AI or get to meet ET we are likely to find confirmation bias there too.

Imagine a life with no confirmation bias, tough isn't it?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2015, 10:48:23 AM »
One, ten, a hundred anecdotes do not make for proof.

If a person successfully defends himself WITHOUT a gun, or flees and avoids being robbed or killed, there is no website where they report it, nor do the police keep records of it.

More guns means more people shot with guns.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2015, 11:15:40 AM »
More guns means more people shot with guns.

Not only is that conjecture, it omits a vital parameter....ILLEGAL....as in the more illegal acquisition of guns, is likely to lead to more people being shot with those illegally acquired guns.  Chicago is a perfect example.  Some of the strictest gun laws in the country, and yet gun crime & shootings have been exploding.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2015, 11:32:07 AM »

More guns means more people shot with guns.

Fewer guns mean more defenseless people , including those who might be attacked by stronger persons , animals or people armed with things other than guns.

This could all be true , including what you have said.

What is the end result that is desired?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2015, 05:18:13 PM »
The desirable end result is that no one be killed. This should not require armed guards in any civilized society.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2015, 08:08:13 PM »
Reality demonstrates that in this civilized society, armed individuals are necessary to help prevent the loss of life
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Guns cost more lives than they save
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2015, 09:06:37 PM »
The presence of 200 million guns make this country a less civilized one.

The more guns there are, the more people will get shot.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."