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Religious Dick

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Germany, Sweden, Canada, among others, and now France....
« on: May 06, 2007, 02:01:09 PM »
...have all elected center-right governments in recent years. And unless he's caught in bed wirh a live boy or a dead girl, Tory David Cameron looks poised to be the next PM of the UK.

Looks like democratic socialism has started to lose it's luster. There's hope for Western Civilization yet.

French Voters Turn Out in Record Numbers
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May 6, 11:39 AM (ET)

By ANGELA DOLAND


PARIS (AP) - French voters turned out Sunday in numbers not seen in nearly 40 years in a presidential election offering divergent choices for the future, with conservative Nicolas Sarkozy urging the French to work more and Socialist Segolene Royal pledging to safeguard welfare protections.

Surveys suggest Sarkozy, the son of a Hungarian immigrant, has a strong edge over Royal, who would become France's first female president if she wins. The most recent survey, taken by Ipsos/Dell on Friday, said he was leading 55 percent to her 45 percent.

As evening fell, turnout at the polls was at 75 percent in mainland France - the highest comparable rate on record, going back to 1969, the Interior Ministry said.

Both Sarkozy, who says he had to fight harder because of his foreign roots, and Royal, a mother of four who says she had to overcome sexism, are originals in French politics and energized an electorate craving new direction.

Whoever wins, the race marks a generational shift, because a 50-something will replace 74-year-old Jacques Chirac, in office for 12 years. But Sarkozy and Royal, nicknamed Sarko and Sego, have radically different formulas for how to revive France's sluggish economy, reverse its declining international clout and improve the lives of the impoverished residents of housing projects where largely minority youth rioted in 2005.

Sarkozy, 52, says France's 35-hour work week is absurd and proposes relaxing labor laws to encourage hiring. A former interior minister, Sarkozy cracked down on drunk driving, crime and illegal immigration.

He is an admirer of the United States who has borrowed from some American policy ideas. Tough-talking and blunt, he alienated many in France's housing projects when he called young delinquents "scum."

Police were quietly keeping watch for possible unrest Sunday night in France's poor, predominantly immigrant neighborhoods if Sarkozy is elected. Authorities in the Seine-Saint-Denis region northeast of Paris - the epicenter of the 2005 rioting - refused officers' requests for days off Sunday, one official said.

At a polling station near Paris' Champs-Elysees, Anne Combemale said she voted for Sarkozy because of his market-oriented economic platform.

"He has the willpower to change France," said Combemale, 43, who is unemployed.

To push through change, the winner will need a majority in French legislative elections in June. Sarkozy has drawn up a whirlwind program for his first 100 days in office and plans to put big reforms before parliament at a special session in July: One bill would make overtime pay tax-free to encourage people to work more, and another would put in place tougher sentencing for repeat offenders.

Royal, 53, is a former environment minister who believes France must keep its welfare protections strong. She wants to raise the minimum wage, create 500,000 state-funded starter jobs for youths and build 120,000 subsidized housing units a year. But she's also pragmatic and acknowledges that the 35-hour work week has had both benefits and drawbacks that she wants to smooth out.

Bechir Chakroun, a 26-year-old who works in marketing, said he liked Royal's commitment to helping the poor.

"She represents change, I want to see what a woman can do," he said.

Royal is strong on the environment and schools but has made a series of foreign policy gaffes - suggesting, for instance, that the Canadian province of Quebec deserved independence. During the campaign, Sarkozy's camp portrayed Royal as a lightweight with unclear ideas, while hers painted him as brutal, a bully - once Royal even called Sarkozy the "bogeyman."

If Royal loses, it will mark the Socialists' third straight defeat in presidential elections. The party managed to glue itself back together after splitting in two over the 2005 referendum on the proposed European constitution, when many of its leaders broke from the party line to urge the French to vote it down.

The rise of centrist candidate Francois Bayrou - who had a strong third-place showing in the first-round vote on April 22, though he was eliminated - suggests the Socialists will need soul-searching about whether to move toward the center like other leftist parties around Europe, or stick to their traditional alliances with the far-left.

This week, as poll numbers suggested Royal's chances were slim, she made a last-ditch effort to rip into Sarkozy, warning of the chance for new riots if he is elected and calling him "a dangerous choice" for France.

Sarkozy retorted in an interview published in Le Parisien newspaper's Web site: "I think that in the history of the Republic, we have never heard such violent or threatening comments."

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070506/D8OUVDUG0.html

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sirs

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Re: Germany, Sweden, Canada, among others, and now France....
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2007, 02:21:15 PM »
I was just reading how Royal tried to pull a last minute Democrat-like trick, analogus to "vote republican and watch another black church burn".  She basically claimed that if Sarkozy is elected, there will be mass riots in the French streets.  Yea, real leader there.  So, who would she be implying will lead the riots?  Is she also implying the more level headed and rational minds are those on Sarkozy's side, who wouldn't, if she were elected?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2007, 04:21:31 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Religious Dick

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Re: Germany, Sweden, Canada, among others, and now France....
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2007, 04:12:02 PM »
I was just reading how Royal tried to pull a last minute Democrat-like trick, analogus to "vote republican and watch another black church burn.  She basically claimed that if Sarkozy is elected, there will be mass riots in the French streets. 

Well then, the police had better get their riot gear ready. He won.


 From Times Online
May 6, 2007
French give Sarkozy a mandate for reform
Nicolas Sarkozy

Nicolas Sarkozy
Charles Bremner, Paris

Nicolas Sarkozy, the son of a Hungarian immigrant, today won the French presidency with a clear mandate to apply radical reforms that break with decades of consensus on the primacy of the welfare state.

The 52-year-old leader of President Chirac’s Union for a Popular Movement defeated Segolene Royal, the Socialist, by an estimated 53 percent to 47 percent after in their bitter fortnight’s duel since other candidates were eliminated in the first round.

By choosing Mr Sarkozy, France turned a deaf ear to the warnings of Ms Royal and much of the left that his muscular plans for restoring the work ethic, cutting welfare and fighting crime would lead to violence and even insurrection. Police were out in force in Paris and in immigrant districts on all the big city outskirts in case of violence by youths who see Mr Sarkozy, the Interior Minister for most of the past five years, as their enemy.

Cheering broke out among hundreds of Sarkozy supporters outside his campaign headquarters when word of the result came through. Accepting her defeat, Ms Royal told cheering supporters on the Boulevard Saint Germain: “I understand your disappointment, but I tell you, something has arisen which will not stop.”
Related Links

    * Riot alert for Sarkozy victory

    * Women voters shun Royal

    * French suburbs threaten riotous dawn

Smiling as some supporters wept, she added: “I undertook a profound reform of the political world and of the left. The high turnout rate showed the revival of political life in France. “

Mr Sarkozy’s victory, the first since 1969 by a candidate from the outgoing President’s party, marks a change of generation after 12 years under President Chirac, 74, although he is not the youngest to be elected to the monarchical presidency of the Fifth Republic. His triumph followed a campaign in which all candidates offered paths for ending the relative economic decline and moral malaise that has afflicted France over over 15 years.

Mr Sarkozy, fiercely ambitious and hyper-energetic, had promised by the most radical -- and un-French -- recipe for restoring the country’s pride and wealth. “Work more to earn more” was the simple slogan that he used to convince the country that its renaissance lies with individual effort rather than reliance on the “social solidarity” which has created the world’s shortest official working week and one of Europe’s highest unemployment rates.

The defeat of Ms Royal, who was the favourite until Mr Sarkozy launched his campaign in January, is expected to lead to blood-letting in the Socialist party after general elections for a new Parliament in six weeks. Ms Royal, whose partner Francois Hollande is the party leader, was never fully supported by Socialist elders who objected to her single-handed attempt to modernise the left during her campaign.

In next month’s elections, voters are expected to return a parliament dominated by the UMP, the former Gaullist movement, which Mr Sarkozy took over in 2004 and jettisoned the semi-socialist doctrines that had been applied by Mr Chirac.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1755224.ece
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

Michael Tee

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Re: Germany, Sweden, Canada, among others, and now France....
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2007, 05:26:57 PM »
<<Looks like democratic socialism has started to lose it's luster. >> 

More's the pity.  But Canada has never had a democratic socialist  national government.  So there's no lustre to lose.

yellow_crane

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Re: Germany, Sweden, Canada, among others, and now France....
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2007, 10:15:41 PM »
<<Looks like democratic socialism has started to lose it's luster. >> 

More's the pity.  But Canada has never had a democratic socialist  national government.  So there's no lustre to lose.



It is impossible to study Jesus Christ and not conclude that His choice for the world's plenty would be some sort of socialism.   He mentioned sin while he talked about poverty.  When the Lord returneth, he shall see that his followers have rarely mentioned the word poverty at all--neither to their Lord nor through the fiery megaphones in the mega-churchs.  The mega-churches are the Base, the Right  Republicans, and not about poverty at all.  I do no include here, of course, some few tenets left in the Catholic Church, some prodestant sects like the activivists largely structurally centered around Minneapolis, and of course the Mormons, who are more socialist than France has ever been. 

The French have chosen their fate.  You know when the crescendoing metaphor is "blood-letting," there is great energy in their dissention.  They probably assume that the tenets of their new capitialism will be a smorgasbord of their choice, a laizzie faire ambianced pick and choose of what they might embrace or reject, like choosing from a plate of bon-bons. 

What they may find this time around is that this capitalism now in play--this goosestepping ubercapitalism--will feign free choice for only so long.  And concurrently they will begin to see their real estate disappear to larger concerns, sporatically, dotting the map like little forest fires, with an occasional bonanza superflare real estate swindle, like Katrina. 

"Blood-letting" sounds like something a megacorporate lackey would say.  I suspect he is just that--a potential Batista Bootlicker in the making.

France's future lies in disenfranchisement of its work force, its jobs sent to sweatshop hellholes overseas, it's middle class made relic, and it's plight to spend what little is left on prescription burgers and the cheap goods appearing at new chains of Dollar stores. 

Paris, denuded of its art and intellectual life by corporate goons, hiring moral shamers like bill bennett and Michael Medved, can now be a showcase Disney World, the first ever with a casino.

It's what it is all about, unhook from labor and nearly all accountability, a squeeze to the center, an accelerating torenntial spin to the center, ever decreasing the number of hands on all the resources.

Jesus, could you comment please?




sirs

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Re: Germany, Sweden, Canada, among others, and now France....
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2007, 10:52:44 PM »
It is impossible to study Jesus Christ and not conclude that His choice for the world's plenty would be some sort of socialism.    

OY,.... yea, Jesus would have wanted to mandate that everyone follow one big social creed, headed by 1 large governing source.  All that gospel about individual choices as it relates to personal responsibility & walking as God would have wanted one to, was just to try and get some chuckles in the audience, as an apparent warm-up.  It didn't really mean anything      ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Germany, Sweden, Canada, among others, and now France....
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2007, 11:38:17 AM »
Quote
Germany, Sweden, Canada, among others, and now France have all elected center-right governments in recent years. And unless he's caught in bed wirh a live boy or a dead girl, Tory David Cameron looks poised to be the next PM of the UK. Looks like democratic socialism has started to lose it's luster. There's hope for Western Civilization yet.

LOL

Calm down a little bit. Your point here is rather extreme.

Let's take Sweden first.

In the most recent election in Sweden the Social Democrats won the plurality of the votes and seats in Parliament by a sizable margin. It was only a cobbling together of a very loose majority with the Moderate Party at the helm that has won a centre-right coalition government there. Moreover, it was not some grand ideological campaign that cost the Social Democrats their victory, but a host of political scandals and especially the lying and subsequent resignation of then Foreign Minister Laila Freivalds that cost them the Government.

Now, let's take Canada

First of all, Canada never had a Democratic Socialist Government. The Liberal Party in Canada is a centrist party. The party of the left is primarily the New Democratic Party (although Bloc-Quebecois is also leftist as well). The NDP has never done very well, certainly not well enough to form a Government. So let's nip that myth right now.

Secondly, once again you attribute an election victory of the centre-right (or in this case more of the right wing) to ideology, when once again scandals played the most significant role. Unlike Sweden, the Liberal Party's scandals were not simply political, but very much went to the very core of the party. It was bad. Very bad. The sponsorship scandal forced the Liberal Party to campaign like a wounded animal, though most of it took place before 2006, it created a view that the Liberal Party had been in power for too long and that power had created a corrupt ruling party.

It is important to remember that the Conservative Party in Canada may be right wing, but it is not the Republican Party (though they may mimic one another at times). It still supports some of the more popular policies that Canadians like. Also, Harper's Government is a minority Government, and is therefore not in control. The former Reform Party was likely more identifiable with the Republican Party of the United States.

And Germany

This is another interesting election where your point is proven completely untrue. Let me tell you why. The CDU/CSU (that would be your centre-right party) actually lost votes and seats in the Bundestag in the 2005 election! Yet, Angela Merkel won didn't she? Well, she did become the Chancellor because the SPD (your Socialists) lost even more votes and seats than the CDU/CSU. SO why are you wrong?

Who gained the most seats in the 2005 German elections? The PDS (Partei des Demokratischen Sozialismus) who were once the Socialist Unity Party that ruled East Germany. They gained fifty-two new seats in the Bundestag. One of the reasons for their success was anger at the neoliberalism of the SPD under Gerhard Schroeder.

France

Again we have a short-sighted American view. I remember right-wing Americans cheering when Jacques Chirac was elected. Then they were saying how horrible he was when he did not support the war in Iraq. The problem is not the French, but that the right wing in France is just not equivalent to the right wing in the United States.

You look at Sarkozy and say, "he's right wing, thank goodness he defeated Royal." Well, by a socialist's standards Royal is right wing also. She's no socialist, she's of the Tony Blair neo-liberal mold.

Right-wing in France simply means that Sarkozy is a Degaullist. He believes in a very strong central authority that deals with crime and similar issues with a very heavy hand. For example, he made a famous remark about cleaning out a particularly crime-ridden and poverty stricken suburb of Paris with a Kärcher. He believes in affirmative action and other notions that would be anathema to the right wing here.

The United Kingdom and David Cameron

Again this shows no understanding of the United Kingdom and her politics. First, Tony Blair is no Democratic Socialist. Occasionally he may support a socialist idea when it is politically suitable, but for the most part he is a "Third Way" neoliberal (as is Royal, as was Gerhard Schroeder) though he does represent a Democratic Socialist Party, so at least you got that part right.

David Cameron is Tony Blair's clone for the Tories. The right wing of the Conservative Party loathe him. They supported David Davis for the leadership, but David Cameron went unopposed as the only centrist - "wet" candidate and won the Tory leadership. He supports affordable public housing, more public aid to the third world, and has even stated his goal as "cutting taxes and increasing public spending, by sharing the proceeds of growth." He has reversed the Tory stance on education fees (in other words still providing free higher education). He is a strong believer in Climate Change and is a strong advocate of Al Gore's film. He supports same-sex marriage and devolution.

He is your standard Notting-Hill Wet Tory. The kind of guy Thatcher hated.

Conclusion

Americans and others need to learn a bit more about these nations before making such broad sweeping comments about worldwide ideological revolutions. Yes, Europe is very capitalist, but they go about it in a different way. Moreover, the political parties in these nations have a far different history and viewpoint than the American parties. The two American parties are generally to the right of many of the world's parties (with Canada as an exception).
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Plane

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Re: Germany, Sweden, Canada, among others, and now France....
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2007, 04:44:28 PM »
  I am hopefull that we can elect a conservative here now , that hasn't happened in a while.

sirs

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Re: Germany, Sweden, Canada, among others, and now France....
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2007, 06:19:03 PM »
So, if I understand it right, the tact Js is using to lessen this huge blow against Socialism via democracy is to reference that even "conservatives" in these other countries are far more liberal than those here in America.  That, as well as those communist/socialist parties that lost elections due to being embroiled in various scandals at the worst of times.....election.  Yea, that makes it all better     ;)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 08:09:26 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle