DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Kramer on August 16, 2010, 12:28:42 PM
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http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/15/article-1303000-017D7FFC0000044D-779_634x650.jpg
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Kramer...I was in a discussion with a guy last week about this non-sense about placing
a mosque near the Sept 11 tragedy site and he said he predicted a "Timothy McVeigh type"
will probably take it out soon after it is built.
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There are just enough fringe radicals that might try exactly that. Move it a half a mile out, and the threat of such goes down exponentially
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Kramer...I was in a discussion with a guy last week about this non-sense about placing
a mosque near the Sept 11 tragedy site and he said he predicted a "Timothy McVeigh type"
will probably take it out soon after it is built.
There are plenty of ex military running around these days and many have the skills.
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Move it a half a mile out, and the threat of such goes down exponentially.
Yeah but SIRS that won't work with the "IN YO FACE" crap they are trying
to do with this project... a.k.a the "Victory Dance Mosque".
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I'm not sure how wishing for the demolition of the cultural center by a McVeigh type allows you to keep the high moral ground.
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I'm not sure how wishing for the demolition of the cultural center by a McVeigh
type allows you to keep the high moral ground.
Who said they are "wishing" a McVeigh type blows this piece of shit mosque to smithereens?
I'd almost prefer to surround it with a a Baptist Church, a Catholic Church, a bunch other
non-Muslim worship centers, a restaurant that sells nothing but Pork, a gay bar and a titty bar.
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<<I'm not sure how wishing for the demolition of the cultural center by a McVeigh type allows you to keep the high moral ground. >>
ROTFLMFAO. "High moral ground." BT, who even suspected you were such a humorist?
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Who said they are "wishing" a McVeigh type blows this piece of shit mosque to smithereens?
So if you heard of such a plan you would attempt to stop it?
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<<I'm not sure how wishing for the demolition of the cultural center by a McVeigh type allows you to keep the high moral ground. >>
ROTFLMFAO. "High moral ground." BT, who even suspected you were such a humorist?
Piss off Mikey. Shouldn't you be developing excuses for Stalin or something?
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I'm not sure how wishing for the demolition of the cultural center by a McVeigh type allows you to keep the high moral ground.
I have to echo Cu4. Who the hell is wishing it??
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So if you heard of such a plan you would attempt to stop it?
If it was soon or over the next few years?...Yes but of course...I told you what my plan would be.
But after the the dynamic changes...later after "the war" is farther along....who knows?
IMO Islam is not a religion. It is a worldwide political movement meant on domination.
I would think "the war" will one day be within our borders, but I would assume that will be after I am gone.
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If it was soon or over the next few years?...Yes but of course...I told you what my plan would be.
Yeah ... there are quite a few churches closer to ground zero than this center would be.
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(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Media%20Logos/a547dd4c.jpg)
Harry Reid: Build mosque elsewhere
(AP) 34 minutes ago
WASHINGTON: The Senate's top Democrat says a mosque should not be built near the site
of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
Sen. Harry Reid of Nevada on Monday became the highest profile Democrat to break with
President Barack Obama, who on Friday backed the right for the developers to build a mosque
near ground zero.
In a statement, Reid said the first amendment protects freedom of religion and he respects that,
but the mosque should be built somewhere else.
Critics have said the location of the mosque is insensitive because the terrorists who struck were
Islamic extremists.
Reid is in a tight campaign for re-election in Nevada. His opponent, Republican Sharron Angle,
earlier in the day called for Reid to say whether he agreed with Obama.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hHYUXhXg36rpzKeUva55Llvea41AD9HKOTM04 (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hHYUXhXg36rpzKeUva55Llvea41AD9HKOTM04)
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I did not know you were a Reid supporter.
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Still waiting to see who it is that's wishing for a terrorist attack on the yet to be built Mosque :-\
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I did not know you were a Reid supporter.
I'm not, but we are both Americans.
Harry Reid probably supports clean running water & having a military too.
Because I do not support him does not mean we can't agree on some things.
Just like I support that Obama is engaged in a tough assassination campaign
against suspected al-Qaeda operatives around the world and that he has placed
David Petraeus in charge of the most important war-front with radical Islam.
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Who said they are "wishing" a McVeigh type blows this piece of shit mosque to smithereens?
So if you heard of such a plan you would attempt to stop it?
without hesitation I would
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That list of names Bt may have been referring to is likely getting really small. Perhaps 1 name?
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Glad to hear all three of you would attempt to stop such lawlessness.
Curious why it was even brought up and commented upon if you would all be against such an action.
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Curious why it was even brought up and commented upon if you would all be against such an action.
Because Kramer posted a picture of the IslamoNazi attack on the United States
where Muslims now want to place an Islamic Mosque/Islamic Center. This issue
is all over the news and very controversial. The American People overwhelming
oppose placing an Islamic Mosque/Cultural Center on this Hallowed Ground.
And I wanted to express to Kramer the extent and level of anger that exists
about this issue.
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Glad to hear all three of you would attempt to stop such lawlessness. Curious why it was even brought up and commented upon if you would all be against such an action.
Be serious Bt. This location is a lghtning rod for extremists and idiots mutating their own version of Christianity, to perform the 'ol eye for an eye tact. No one here I believe supports such an event, however the likelyhood is far greater the closer to ground zero this Mosque is placed. And 2 blocks is nothing, when you consider the damage caused by 911 was far more than a mere 2 blocks
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This location is a lghtning rod for extremists and idiots mutating their own version of Christianity, to perform the 'ol eye for an eye tact.
I see. They would equate Bin Ladens actions with those of this Iman, but you wouldn't.
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That's why they're called radicals & extremists
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And they call those that equate the actions of an individual to a group prejudiced bigots.
Now explain to me again how sharing a religion is reason enough to deny someone their property rights?
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You're not paying attention Bt. No one is saying people should be denied the right to build a mosque, on private property. Its merely the location that is at issue, and the lack of wisdom associated with it ::)
So, please go peddle the bigot BS elsewhere.
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Its merely the location that is at issue, and the lack of wisdom associated with it
And the location is a problem because.... they are Muslims?
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(http://www.jacob-rohrbach-inn.com/nro_logo.gif)
By Charles Krauthammer
August 13, 2010 12:00 A.M.
Sacrilege at Ground Zero
Even Mayor Bloomberg acknowledges that the rules are different when it comes to sacred places.
A place is made sacred by a widespread belief that it was visited by the miraculous or the transcendent (Lourdes, the Temple Mount), by the presence there once of great nobility and sacrifice (Gettysburg), or by the blood of martyrs and the indescribable suffering of the innocent (Auschwitz).
When we speak of Ground Zero as hallowed ground, what we mean is that it belongs to those who suffered and died there ? and that such ownership obliges us, the living, to preserve the dignity and memory of the place, never allowing it to be forgotten, trivialized, or misappropriated.
That's why Disney's early ?90s proposal to build an American history theme park near Manassas Battlefield was defeated by a broad coalition fearing vulgarization of the Civil War (and wiser than me; at the time I obtusely saw little harm in the venture). It's why the commercial viewing tower built right on the border of Gettysburg was taken down by the Park Service. It's why, while no one objects to Japanese cultural centers, the idea of putting one up at Pearl Harbor would be offensive.
And why Pope John Paul II ordered the Carmelite nuns to leave the convent they had established at Auschwitz. He was in no way devaluing their heartfelt mission to pray for the souls of the dead. He was teaching them a lesson in respect: This is not your place, it belongs to others. However pure your voice, better to let silence reign.
Even New York mayor Michael Bloomberg, who denounced opponents of the proposed 15-story mosque and Islamic center near Ground Zero as tramplers on religious freedom, asked the mosque organizers to show some special sensitivity to the situation. Yet, as Rich Lowry pointedly noted, the government has no business telling churches how to conduct their business, shape their message, or show "special sensitivity" to anyone about anything. Bloomberg was thereby inadvertently conceding the claim of those he excoriates for opposing the mosque, namely, that Ground Zero is indeed unlike any other place and, therefore, unique criteria govern what can be done there.
Bloomberg's implication is clear: If the proposed mosque were controlled by "insensitive" Islamist radicals either excusing or celebrating 9/11, he would not support its construction.
But then, why not? By the mayor's own expansive view of religious freedom, by what right do we dictate the message of any mosque? Moreover, as a practical matter, there's no guarantee this couldn't happen in the future. Religious institutions in this country are autonomous. Who is to say that the mosque won't one day hire an Anwar al-Awlaki, spiritual mentor to the Fort Hood shooter and the Christmas Day bomber, and one-time imam at the Virginia mosque attended by two of the 9/11 terrorists?
An Awlaki preaching in Virginia is a security problem. An Awlaki preaching at Ground Zero is a sacrilege.
Location matters. Especially this location. Ground Zero is the site of the greatest mass murder in American history perpetrated by Muslims of a particular Islamist orthodoxy in whose cause they died and in whose name they killed.
Of course that strain represents only a minority of Muslims. Islam is no more intrinsically Islamist than present-day Germany is Nazi, yet despite contemporary Germany's innocence, no German of good will would even think of proposing a German cultural center at, say, Treblinka.
Which makes you wonder about the good will behind Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf's proposal. This is a man who has called U.S. policy "an accessory to the crime" of 9/11 and, when recently asked whether Hamas is a terrorist organization, replied, "I'm not a politician. . . . The issue of terrorism is a very complex question."
America is a free country where you can build whatever you want, but not anywhere. That's why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities, and, if your house doesn't meet community architectural codes, you cannot build at all.
These restrictions are for reasons of aesthetics. Others are for more profound reasons of common decency and respect for the sacred.
No commercial tower over Gettysburg, no convent at Auschwitz, and no mosque at Ground Zero.
Build it anywhere but there.
The governor of New York offered to help find land to build the mosque elsewhere. A mosque really seeking to build bridges, Rauf's ostensible hope for the structure, would accept the offer.
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/243668/sacrilege-ground-zero-charles-krauthammer (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/243668/sacrilege-ground-zero-charles-krauthammer)
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Shame the center isn't being built at ground zero. Krauthammer might have a point then. It is being built two city blocks away.
BTW is the Murrah Building sacred ground?
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There are clearly two issues here. One is whether the group that owns the area where the mosque is planned should be allowed to build it, because somehow the entire area has been made different than any other area. And the answer is that this is a free country, and there are no grounds for denying a mosque to be built any more than any government has the right to prevent a church,synagogue, temple or any other sort of civic structure to be built in the same place.
The other issue is whether it is good public relations to build it in this place at this time. Will it benefit the image of Muslims that is held by non-Muslims? How this will be seen a decade or a century from now really cannot be known.Many Parisians detested the Eiffel Tower and wanted it to be torn down.The Statue of Liberty had many critics,as did the Vietnam Memorial.The Washington Monument was the butt of many obscene jokes before it was completed.
Odds are this mosque will be less commented upon than Grant's Tomb or the Trinity Church in the future. At the moment is is being given far too much significance for stupid political reasons.
Personally,I doubt that it will benefit the image of Muslims held by Americans,and might even be a negative, because of all this invented controversy. I can't think of anything that the Muslims could do that might cause me to see Islam as any more positive an influence on civilization than other dogmatic and uncompromising religions,like American fundamentalists or Ultra Orthodox Judaism.
I do not believe,however,that most,or even many,Muslims desire to wipe out Western Civilization or have the ability to do so.
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Shame the center isn't being built at ground zero. Krauthammer might have a point then. It is being built two city blocks away.
BTW is the Murrah Building sacred ground?
http://www.oklahomacitynationalmemorial.org/ (http://www.oklahomacitynationalmemorial.org/)
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So are fallen Catholic agnostic ex-military personnel forbidden to build near the site?
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Its merely the location that is at issue, and the lack of wisdom associated with it
And the location is a problem because.... they are Muslims?
Nope....the Mosque is. At least that's what it suppose to symbolize....that of the Muslim religion of Islam
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Its merely the location that is at issue, and the lack of wisdom associated with it
And the location is a problem because.... they are Muslims?
Nope....the Mosque is. At least that's what it suppose to symbolize....that of the Muslim religion of Islam
The location is not the issue, the issue is that it is a Mosque/Cultural Center and the practice of a faith will take place there, but not any faith, the Muslim faith ( not that there is anything wrong with the religion but do they have to practice it so close to you know, "hallowed ground")?
Is that it?
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So are fallen Catholic agnostic ex-military personnel forbidden to build near the site?
Build what? Last I checked McVeigh was a lone wolf, not representing or claiming to represent anyone besides himself and his own personal demons. The comparison effort's not going to hold water
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Its merely the location that is at issue, and the lack of wisdom associated with it
And the location is a problem because.... they are Muslims?
Nope....the Mosque is. At least that's what it suppose to symbolize....that of the Muslim religion of Islam
The location is not the issue, ....
Ahem, the location is precisely the issue, and always has been. But your additional addons do reinforce the inappropriateness of the location
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Should burkas be banned from a 5 block radius of Ground Zero. because you know, if they aren't, then Bin Laden wins.
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He does? wow, didn't realize you were aware of a mass of Muslim women about to have some huge organized sit down in lower Manhattan, with no intentions of being moved. Do tell
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Its merely the location that is at issue, and the lack of wisdom associated with it
And the location is a problem because.... they are Muslims?
Nope....the Mosque is. At least that's what it suppose to symbolize....that of the Muslim religion of Islam
The location is not the issue, the issue is that it is a Mosque/Cultural Center and the practice of a faith will take place there, but not any faith, the Muslim faith ( not that there is anything wrong with the religion but do they have to practice it so close to you know, "hallowed ground")?
Is that it?
The location is, the issue.
Have there not been several Mosques built in other locations with little fuss?
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<<The location is, the issue.>>
Obviously, the Muslim religion is the issue, since no church, synagogue, or similar "Judeo-Christian" (whatever the hell that is) shrine built at the location would excite anywhere near the controversy that the mosque does.
Unless somebody can show a link between the entire religion of Islam and the individual "terrorists" and their particular interpretation of Islam, proving that the religion itself across all of its believers endorses or requires actions like 9-11, then there is no logical explanation of the opposition to the Ground Zero mosque other than religious bigotry
<<Have there not been several Mosques built in other locations with little fuss?>>
Irrelevant and not even factually accurate. Proposed mosques and Islamic centres get a lot of resistance across the U.S.A. today, all over the country. More to the point, let's talk about this particular location - - can anyone seriously believe that a church, cathedral or synagogue at this particular location would experience anywhere near the animosity that the proposed mosque is getting?
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BTW is the Murrah Building sacred ground?
McVeigh was Christian and there are two Christian churches across the street (one on each side) from the memorial where the Murrah Building once stood.
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Again, this is not an important issue. It will really make no difference whether there is a mosque or Starbucks No. 4567 three blocks away from the still unbuilt Ground Zero Official Hallowed Site. This is just a stupid hotbutton issue that will be as meaningless as the anti flag burning amendment or Reagan's wanting to do away with the Dept. of Education. It is hard to determine who the bigger fools are: the fools want to ban a mosque and those who think it is going to make everyone look more favorably on their backward religion.
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<<The location is, the issue.>>
Obviously, the Muslim religion is the issue, since no church, synagogue, or similar "Judeo-Christian" (whatever the hell that is) shrine built at the location would excite anywhere near the controversy that the mosque does.
Obviously, you're mistaken, since if this Mosque were built anywhere else, this wouldn't be an issue
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Americans as a group do not like Islam, because Islam is in many ways the antithesis of our culture. We like our women to be pretty and interacting with men in our society, they like to uglify theirs and keep them at home. We do not like the idea of a single religion, and are especially unfond of a religion that believes it has the right to wake up every bloody soul at dawn every day, and pray in unison fiver freaking times a day at a time set by the local mosque. We have tried to put religion in charge of our society.and it resulted in a thousand years of extreme ignorance and backwardness, and Islam is certainly no different from medieval Catholicism in that respect. The main difference is that the Holy Mother Church had one Pope and Islam has a variety of conflicting imams and ayatollahs.
I find it pretty weird that somehow the most valuable parcel of real estate in the country should be, in the opinion of some Capitalist Americans, declared "holy", "sanctified" and "sanctified" and therefore off limits to religious use, though. The people who died on 9-11 did npt die as martyrs, valiantly defending their noble cause. They were unsuspecting and unlucky victims, period. 9-11 was not Gettysburg, or Valley Forge or even Pearl Harbor, so let's get real.
Let them build their damned mosque and then we can all ignore it, just as we ignore the fundie handing out Jack Chick Comics or the Jehovah's Witlesses peddling their religion like the freaking Avon Lady.
I am pretty sure that we can enforce laws against annoying calls to prayer five times a day.
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I agree....let them build their "damn mosque"....about 6-8 more blocks away. Problem solved
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He does? wow, didn't realize you were aware of a mass of Muslim women about to have some huge organized sit down in lower Manhattan, with no intentions of being moved. Do tell
Burkas are as symbolic a representation of Islam as nuns in habits are of Catholicism. If symbolic representation of a religion (which you stated was the reason for your objection to the Mosque) so close to hallowed ground is insensitive and insulting, would you be in favor of banning burkas within that half mile radius. So as not to offend, ya know.
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Burkas are indeed symbolic, but trying to compare 1 burka that moves in and around Manhattan, vs a massive structure standing in the shadow of what was once the WTC, is kinda ..... misleading, doncha think?
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Offensive is offensive, insulting is insulting. The religion of Islam is the insult. Because Bin Laden practiced it.
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Offensive is offensive, insulting is insulting. The religion of Islam is the insult. Because Bin Laden practiced it.
Sports Illustrated Swim Suit Issue is Hustler!
::)
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Sports Illustrated Swim Suit Issue is Hustler!
Depends on the sensitivity of the offended.
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They do not need anyone's permission to build the mosque. It is not "in the shadow" of the nonexistent WTC, nor will it ever be in the shadow of anything that they eventually build on that site.
One issue is whether they have the right to build their mosque or whatever it is on the property they own. They do, and no matter who is elected to whatever political office, this will not change.
The other issue is whether it is a good idea to build this at the present time. You can agree or disagree on this, but it will not change the legal right to build.
There is no legal "problem" to solve.
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Offensive is offensive, insulting is insulting.
And perspective is perspective. My 3 bedroom single story home is a house, so is the White House. A derringer is a gun, so is a 50caliber machine gun
The religion of Islam is the insult. Because Bin Laden practiced it.
Bzzz, wrong.
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Depends on the sensitivity of the offended.
EXACTLY!
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They do not need anyone's permission to build the mosque....There is no legal "problem" to solve.
Good thing that was never an issue, in the 1st place. Care to refute another position that sas never made?
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Quote from: BT on Today at 11:35:07 AM
The religion of Islam is the insult. Because Bin Laden practiced it.
Bzzz, wrong.
Then what is the insult?
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Bt, I've already answered that multiple times. My suggestion is to contact some of the 911 family members to better answer your question, since you apparently don't intend on reading mine
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Actually you have never answered the question consistently.
First it was the location. You didn't have a problem with a Mosque being built 1/2 mile out, but you did with it being built 600 ft out.
And the reason a Mosque so close to Ground Zero would be insulting is because it represents the religion of Islam.
And the reason the religion of Islam would be offensive is because bin Laden practiced that religion and the attacks on the WTC were done in Islam's name, at least in Bin Ladens and the attackers mind.
What you have never answered is whether the religion of Islam is to be held accountable for Bin Ladens actions.
perhaps the nuances of this issue are above my paygrade, but i don't understand the linkage between the two.
I would be glad to discuss this with the 9/11 families, but since they don't post on this board i guess you and others who have displayed disgust with this project will have to do.
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Actually you have never answered the question consistently.
Actually, I have, and its always been about location. Not the 1st, but the current. It remains the foundation to the issue, and remains that if it were built out of ear & eye shot of the WTC shadow, we wouldn't be having this discussion
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Hey maybe if more Muslims motivated by religion bomb more US cities
BT and Barack Hussein Obama can be good little kafirs and
support Muslims building mosques on every sight they drop a bomb.
Yeah! thats a great idea....if Muslims drop the Sears Tower in Chicago
quickly get Muslims in Saudi Arabia and other undemocratic Muslim
nations to cough up the money to build more "Victory Mosques" at
every site in America they bomb or destroy! The American People
should love the idea! Let Freedom Ring, Democracy intended to
commit suicide!
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Hey maybe if more Muslims motivated by religion bomb more US cities
BT and Barack Hussein Obama can be good little kafirs and
support Muslims building mosques on every sight they drop a bomb.
Yeah! thats a great idea....if Muslims drop the Sears Tower in Chicago
quickly get Muslims in Saudi Arabia and other undemocratic Muslim
nations to cough up the money to build more "Victory Mosques" at
every site in America they bomb or destroy! The American People
should love the idea! Let Freedom Ring, Democracy intended to
commit suicide!
So now the builders of this Mosque are Muslim bombers.
And that is based on what? Their religion?
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So now the builders of this Mosque are Muslim bombers.
Uh?...Where in the english language does my statement say that?
The bombers and the builders are part of a "so-called" religion
that threatens world peace like no other and governments and
business around the world are spending billions of dollars to defend
against "the problem" that exists within this "so-called" religion
that is really a worldwide political movement with an end goal
of subjugating all people under Islamic law. Really our enemies
should take heart...because all they have to do is call themselves
"a religion" and then they can work freely to go about their task
and goals of dismatling Western Culture and democracy in any way
they see fit. Again Muslims bombs US buildings and other "moderate"
Muslims can pretend to take the high ground and buy the bombed out
rubble and rebuild mosques and Muslim "cultural centers". The Saudis
have deep pockets and I could see them funding the building of
many mosques on American soil where Muslims have blown up buildings
and BT would be right there singing their praise that "IT"S THEIR RIGHT"!
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I think you need to cut BT some slack, Cu4. He obviously doesn't support terrorist activity or advocating its ok for Mosques to breed home grown terrorists. We have no idea if that's what'll happen here, and will likely be under massive scrutiny by government officials (that'll open up a whole new can of worms). He's simply stating that the U.S., has a guiding principle, the Constitution. And as a rule of law nation, people have the right to exercise their freedom of religion, especially on private property. Simple as that
Problem is, this is neither a "simple issue", nor is it about the Consitutution or denying anyone the freedom of religion. Its about the wisdom, or severe lack of, in giving this symbol, invoked with the murdering of thousands, such a predominant spot on their grave
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Uh?...Where in the english language does my statement say that?
If they aren't bombers why should we care where they build a Mosque.
And if members of their Mosque are bombers we have laws on the books that will make sure they don't get to pray in their shiny new symbol.
I understand you want to call a spade a spade but you also don't want to participate in bigoted behavior so I can understand your dilemma.
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I understand you want to call a spade a spade but you also don't want to participate
in bigoted behavior so I can understand your dilemma.
Yeah BT and I can understand your dilemma and you're a fucking asshole too!
Your between the lines hiding is for the birds.
After each bombing proclaim this so-called religion can build Victory Mosques on every bombing site!
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If I'm an asshole might as well act like one.
Show me the fucking link between Bin Laden or any other Muslim terrorist and the guy running the 7-11 who will attend this Mosque.
But just because you fear something doesn't mean it will happen and even if it does there a ways to deal with it.
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I think I best step out of this thread. It's starting to steamroll out of control
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"If I'm an asshole might as well act like one"
LOL...yep.....the liberals are spending less time here (because they know whats coming in Nov)
so yeah bring it on....it's obvious you are taking on the role while they are gone!
"Show me the fucking link between Bin Laden or any other Muslim terrorist
and the guy running the 7-11 who will attend this Mosque"
BT they both belong to a so called religion...a movement...that threatens world peace.
Lets be honest BT...when you take your shoes off at the airport that really wouldn't
be happening if not for Islam? Honestly? When did it happen before the IslamoNazis
started blowing up airplanes full of innocent civilians? Are Catholics motivated by their religion
blowing up airliners full of hundreds of innocent civilians? Are Baptist motivated by their religion
targeting and blowing up schools and buses full of kids and innocent civilians? Are Buddhist
motivated by their religion targeting girls schools with bombs or blowing up civilian airliners
full of people? BT why cant you admit the truth? This so called religion has a very, very serious
problem within it. It's such a serious problem it threatens world peace.
Would you support it if every time an anti-abortion whack job kills an abortion doctor
or blows up an abortion clinic if wealthy Christians immediately bought the land where
the violence had happened and built "ProLife Outreach Cultural Centers"? I am 100%
ProLife, but I would see that as an outrage and reasons should be found to not allow
that to happen.
Ya know I quess there was "a mosque in waiting" at Times Square recently when the "moderate Muslim"
that bought a nice pretty house in America before he tried to blow up Times Square recently.
Right now there are at least 8 functioning mosques in Manhattan in intolerant America!
Gosh we might end up with many more mosques after each & every building they blow up in America.
They..MUSLIMS....motivated by their religion....like no other religion....are blowing up stuff every
day all over the world.....hey maybe it will lead to less unemployment with all the construction
costs of rebuilding stuff that Muslims blow up in the name of their religion!
::)
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Airport security has been in place since the 70's.
I don't know about airplanes but the IRA blew up quite a few things in their time. My guess is they weren't Muslim.
Participation in this forum is voluntary. perhaps the liberals who used to frequent this forum got tired of the personal attacks.
Case in point Brass's recent visit.
My positions are my positions. I don't argue a side if i don't believe in it though i guess intellectually i could and in fact it might be fun.
I don't believe Muslims are interested in world domination nor do i believe they are a danger to world peace. Some Muslims may have a different attitude, but at that point they become terrorists I think our dependence of foreign energy sources is far more dangerous to our well-being than anything Bin Laden could throw at us.
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To be honest Bt, "personal attacks" were largely both sides. They still are, so if liberals left because of such, one can hardly conclude they did it because of the personal attacks, but more likely they got tired of the back & forth personal attacks. I can't count how often liberals make every effort to demonize the messenger. It's almost as if they took a book out of the Clinton machine's personal detruction manifesto. And that's not to say the right doesn't contribute.
Point being I see it both ways, and despite how many times I try to facilitate civil dialog and debate, I'm frequently left to conclude the worst, given either the lack of a response or the all to often personal attack, when one does respond.
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To be honest Bt, "personal attacks" were largely both sides.
Yeah i know, everybody does it.
Wonder why straypup left?
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I guess you'd have to ask him. For my part, I make every effort to refrain from such, though I admit, I lose my patience with those who wish to mispresent my responses (not referring to you), and claim something I'm not or haven't
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why do we (the 75% of Americans that don't want this) have to be sensitive to 'their' fucking needs? I'm tired of being sensitive. Let them be sensitive to my needs, for fucking once, and find another location, one that is in the heart of their fucking community, not in an area where hardly any of them live?
Seems like the people that say we aren't being sensitive enough are the hate America crowd. I want the hate-America crowd for one fucking time to be sensitive to my fucking needs, just one fucking time.
Well fuck Obama and his minions of USA haters! Fuck him and his apologizing all over the fucking world for the USA, and fuck his bowing down to piss-ant dictators too. Fuck everyone of these insensitive cock-sucking liberal pieces of shit on the NYC Planning Commission and the fucking limos they rode in on.
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"Airport security has been in place since the 70's"
Come on BT why do we still play games?
Computers were around in the 70's and they are around today...so what the heck....nuttin has changed!
We all flew in the 1970's....is it anything like today? Anything? Was the threat even close to todays levels?
Why is it the way it is today? Is it because Baptists blew up planes? Catholics? The IRA?
I wonder if the TSA or whatever it was called back then feared the IRA as much as Islamics?
The moral equivalence is ridiculous!
I don't know about airplanes but the IRA blew up quite a few things in their time.
My guess is they weren't Muslim.
Ya wanna do a body count on Islamic terrorist vs. IRA Terrorist? I doubt you do!
Equating or even implying equatement is nuts!
BT because Muslims are blowing up stuff and murdering innocent civilians in the name of their
so called religion ....Jihad crap...every single day...does not mean there are not other bad guys.
Is your logic since there are multiple "bad guys" that no one can be singled out as the worst?
The jaywalker and Charles Manson are both lawbreakers so Manson shouldn't be singled out?
Participation in this forum is voluntary. perhaps the liberals who used to frequent this forum
got tired of the personal attacks.
I doubt it...since some of them are clearly among the worst offenders of personal attacks.
They just know whats coming in November....and others dont like getting punched back.
Case in point Brass's recent visit.
I am not aware of this....but from memory Brass can be about as abrasive as the next guy.
"My positions are my positions. I don't argue a side if i don't believe in it"
Really? Honestly I see you enjoying playing the devil's advocate...especially when the
discussion becomes overly one-sided...
though i guess intellectually i could and in fact it might be fun.
Oh it can be....I used to argue for Slavery Reparations in Yahoo Chat and actually
pretended to be Black....and I did it often enough that I learned a new perspective
about how much Whites even today benefit from slavery and should be more understanding
of the African American plight in our society.....
I don't believe Muslims are interested in world domination nor do
i believe they are a danger to world peace.
So Islamist aren't even on the list as a danger to world peace?
Don't even make the list!
So all the aircraft carriers sitting right now on Iran's shores would be sitting there if Iran was Baptist?
Show me 1 incident of Baptist' violence in the name of their religion and I'll show you 1000 incidents
of Muslim violence in the name of their religion. And it's gonna get worse....much worse....now we've
got one Islamic Theocracy creating havoc sponsoring terror all over the globe...wait until we have
ten Islamic Theocracies! Gonna be fun looking back on the "good ole days" when we could have put
an end to the non-sense.
I think our dependence of foreign energy sources is far more dangerous to our
well-being than anything Bin Laden could throw at us.
We are only "dependent" on foriegn energy sources because we want to be.
Iran may get it's nukes and those nukes will find their way to Bin Laden types
and when they do.....and Miami or Chicago or LA looks like Hiroshima we'll
see how dismissive you are of the Muslim threat on the Western World.
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You're a bright guy CU. You run your own business and all.
If this planned Mosque opens up the gates of hell then i will concede that you are right.
But I don't see that happening.
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"You're a bright guy CU. You run your own business and all"
Thanks...but not really.....I would say "savy" in certain areas.
I assure you others did much better on their SAT than me.
BTW BT....business is hurting....the worst it's been in years.
Scary for me...more scary for the country....
The business I am in is a barometer on the ecomony & it doesn't look good.
Layoffs loom...downsizing and relocating to smaller facilities loom.
I'll survive but I feel for the people with families that may get layed off soon.
If this planned Mosque opens up the gates of hell then i will concede that you are right
But I don't see that happening.
Well I hope it never sees the light of day.
But BT we can "F-in" respectfully agree to disagree!...LOL
And I hope you're not mad at me for getting a little fired up!
This issue really fires me up!...I think it is a volatile issue.
We'll see what happens.
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BTW BT....business is hurting....the worst it's been in years.
Scary for me...more scary for the country....
Yeah I know. My sister and brother in law run a printing business. They were at 45 employees. They are down to 32. Still a big payroll to meet every Friday. Especially with the increase in slow pays.
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Declaring war on an entire religion is utter insanity.
Maybe picking on the Druses or the Mormon Fundies, because there are so many fewer of them, but Christians wanting to defeat the Muslims is just bananas.
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Declaring war on an entire religion is utter insanity.
Maybe picking on the Druses or the Mormon Fundies, because there are so many fewer of them, but Christians wanting to defeat the Muslims is just bananas.
The kinda of defeating any sane person would be for, would be defeating people like the 19 terrorists that flew the Jets on 9/11. If a so-called 'real Christian' was for ridding the world of Muslims then they would not be real because real Christians believe and follow the teachings of the Holy Bible & Jesus and neither advocates killing Muslims.
Now let me give you a hint at who might be a 'fake' Christian. That would be Reverend Wright, the former minister to Barry Obama. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, & Louis Farrakhan are all phony ministers that hide behind phony religions and their true religion is on par with radical Muslims and they all basically have the same goal. That goal is taking down the USA and killing as many of us as possible.
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Declaring war on an entire religion is utter insanity.
And who would be doing that? Please provide us with this apparent declaration
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if built this 9/11 mosque would be 'monument' to terror.
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WHY WHY WHY? - Obama is a uniter?
I could not believe my eyes when I read this paragraph!
"Gov. Paterson is concerned that Mayor Mike Bloomberg,
a staunch supporter of putting the mosque at ground zero,
and President Barack Obama, might be advising mosque leaders
to dig in their heels and insist on the present location.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Media%20Logos/87ed15c6.jpg)
Ground Zero Mosque On The Move?
Opponents To Meet With Developers On Troubling Issue
August 17, 2010 10:05 PM
(http://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/proposed-mosque-site.jpg?w=420)
The proposed Mosque site near ground zero (Photo by Chris Hondros/Getty Images)
NEW YORK (CBS 2) There was a possible resolution in the works Tuesday night in the debate
surrounding the proposed mosque and Islamic cultural center near ground zero.
CBS 2′s Marcia Kramer has learned it looks as if the developers of the mosque may be willing to
budge and move away from the Park 51 location where they originally planned the construction.
So will the mosque be moving?
New York Gov. David Paterson plans to meet with developers of the controversial ground zero
mosque as early as this week to offer them state land at another location for their cultural
and religious center. Paterson told Congressman Peter King about the meeting, and King said
the governor asked him to make it public.
The purpose of the meeting would be for the governor to discuss with the leaders of the mosque
where state property is available, said Rep. King. Whether or not people from the mosque would
be willing to consider that property.
King added that the governor seemed very enthused about the anticipated discussions.
For at least a week, the governor's message to the developers has been one of hopeful understanding.
I hope that they type of cultural understanding that they're trying to promote when they build the
center could be practiced right now,Paterson said.
Sources tell CBS 2's Kramer that [size=14t]Gov. Paterson is concerned that Mayor Mike Bloomberg,
a staunch supporter of putting the mosque at ground zero, and President Barack Obama, might be
advising mosque leaders to dig in their heels and insist on the present location.[/size]
But there was a glimmer of hope that they are open to a compromise.
A Tuesday tweet from the Park51 Twitter account said:
For the past week, we have focused on trying to respond to attacks and detractors of our project.
What's become clear is they won't listen.
In the next 140 character post, they added:
Starting today, we're going to begin addressing questions regarding park51.
We're open to any sensible discussion.
Paterson's office confirmed that discussions between his staff and the developer's staff
have been ongoing and said the governor expects to have a meeting scheduled in the near future.
Congressman King said the openness of the developers to a compromise will be the real test of their intentions.
"If the leaders of the mosque take up the governor on his proposal, it would show that their real intention
is to bring people together, build bridges," he said. "And not just make a political statement by having a
mosque at Ground Zero."
There's also the issue of separation of church and state, and whether the governor should provide state
land for a mosque.
King said in this case it would be okay, especially if the compromise meets the need of both sides.
As for the debate over the mosque in its current proposed location, religious leaders said Monday
they are worried this one building is leading to a nationwide backlash.
It is the question Muslim leaders and those of other faiths are asking.
How far is too close? If two blocks near the Burlington factory is too close is that far enough?
said Mahdi Bray, the executive director of Muslim American Society Freedom.
Officials said the ground zero mosque controversy is just one of many attempts to prevent
mosques from being built all over the country, and that it may have emboldened other protestors.
Protests have been held on Staten Island, and California, and Tennessee, Wisconsin, Alabama and Florida.
The building of mosques and the resistance from the buildings of mosques has increased throughout
America as well as the destruction and vandalizing of mosque, including a pipe bomb placed in a
mosque in Florida, Bray said.
Leaders of other faiths joined the Muslins American Society Freedom on Tuesday.
I know how I would feel if people started saying there were certain places you weren't allowed to put
up a synagogue and therefore I know what should not be done to people who want to put up a cultural
center which will include a prayer space, said Rabbi Aurthus Waskow, the director of the Shalom Center
in Philadelphia.
But on Tuesday at ground zero many said they were opposed to putting the mosque so close to where
the 9/11 attacks took place. They are not against mosque construction in other parts of the city.
"It's the location, yeah, this is holy ground. A lot of people died here," said Steven Van Cook of Queens.
"My objection is ground zero. This is a holy place. It should remain as a holy place," added Steven Goldberg of Bayside.
What about building it in another place in Manhattan?
"No, I wouldn't mind because you know it's freedom of speech in the country, but I object to it being here,"
Goldberg said.
When asked is he is opposed to the location or the building mosques in New York City, Vito Serzelczyk of
Marlton, N.J., said, "Location, location, location. This is a very sensitive area. I was here on Sept. 11.
It was a terrible, tragic event and I feel sorry for the families of those people, victims, and this is not r
eally the place to build a mosque."
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/08/17/paterson-king-hope-for-mosque-compromise/ (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/08/17/paterson-king-hope-for-mosque-compromise/)
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I have been trying to imagine what the most exact reversal of this situation would be.
How about this...
(http://photos.igougo.com/images/p259566-Atlanta-World_of_Coca-Cola_Museum.jpg)
Right next to this...?
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:YVPjJFndvvxkVM:http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3/Nutzkie2001/HiroshimaPeaceMemorial.jpg&t=1)
An Army recruiting station at Wounded Knee?
A Starbucks inside the Kaaba?
Well , help me out , what would really be the reverse of the situation we have been discussing??
http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/index_e2.html (http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/index_e2.html)
http://www.worldofcoca-cola.com/ (http://www.worldofcoca-cola.com/)
http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/b29.html (http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/b29.html)
http://www.woundedkneemuseum.org/index.htm (http://www.woundedkneemuseum.org/index.htm)
http://www.toursaudiarabia.com/kaaba.html (http://www.toursaudiarabia.com/kaaba.html)
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Ground Zero Mosque On The Move?
Opponents To Meet With Developers On Troubling Issue
August 17, 2010 10:05 PM
(http://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/proposed-mosque-site.jpg?w=420)
The proposed Mosque site near ground zero (Photo by Chris Hondros/Getty Images)
NEW YORK (CBS 2) There was a possible resolution in the works Tuesday night in the debate
surrounding the proposed mosque and Islamic cultural center near ground zero.
*snip*
Hmmm, this post looks quite familiar (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=11256.msg109168#msg109168) 8)
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Hmmm, this post looks
I thought you said you were stepping out of this thread! ;)
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Now let me give you a hint at who might be a 'fake' Christian. That would be Reverend Wright, the former minister to Barry Obama. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, & Louis Farrakhan are all phony ministers that hide behind phony religions and their true religion is on par with radical Muslims and they all basically have the same goal. That goal is taking down the USA and killing as many of us as possible.
====================================================================
At that time did any of these men ever state they wanted to kill anyone?
Most Muslims are not radicals, and it is absolutely impossible to kill the actual perpetrators of the WTC bombings because they are already dead.
The US has no reason to declare war on all of Islam. Your knowledge as revealed in this forum of both Islam and Christianity is warped beyond recognition. You are an authority on nothing except what occurs when ignorance, stupidity and BSDS (big swinging dick syndrome) all are merged in a warped mind.
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Hmmm, this post looks
I thought you said you were stepping out of this thread! ;)
I lied 8)
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The US has no reason to declare war on all of Islam. Your knowledge as revealed in this forum of both Islam and Christianity is warped beyond recognition. You are an authority on nothing except what occurs when ignorance, stupidity and BSDS (big swinging dick syndrome) all are merged in a warped mind.
And your knowledge, and memory, appear to be sorely lacking, since we have yet to see this so called delcaration, by the U.S. Is it coming anytime soon, or is it just your standard blowing smoke, with its associated personal attacks?
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I was referring to the war that CU4 and Kramer seem to be longing for.
McCain was not elected, hence I deem that there will be no war declarations until some really stupid GOPer is president.
I have not seen where Wright, Sharpton, or even Farrakhan have expressed a desire to kill Americans as Kramer alleges, either. Farrakhan seems to be rather invisible lately. I think he is seriously ill.
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I was referring to the war that CU4 and Kramer seem to be longing for.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_jLmX_8LH3uo/SbwPc2LCRNI/AAAAAAAAEYI/vidf-iPMDi8/s400/Lets+Pretend.JPG)
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Why not drop some bombs on Pakistan, now that they have that flood and all? It would be an IDEAL time to take out millions of evil Muslims at a special monsoon price. After we wipe out twenty million or so, we can send missionaries and convert them to Jeezus.
There might be more Pakistanis on this planet than people in the Russian Federation. There are surely more Pakis than Russians.
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I was referring to the war that CU4 and Kramer seem to be longing for. McCain was not elected, hence I deem that there will be no war declarations until some really stupid GOPer is president.
So, in other words, you were blowing smoke with your ususal laundry list of personal attacks. There is no declaration by the U.S. on all of Muslims, as you originally claimed. There's merely a declaration of war by 2 of our posters on militant Islam. Glad we got that cleared up. Oh, and you can count me in, on at war with radical Islam & Islamofascism as well. One with your supposed level of education, SHOULD be able to differentiate that with the grotesque distortion of a war on all Muslims.
Should, that is