"Compensatory Opportunites" ??

[Michael Tee]

<<Being rich works for blackpeople too.>>

Being rich works for all kindsa people.  That's what's so nice about money.  It's colour-blind.

<<As an experiment lets have an open society where little is forbidden to say and do and the possibility of wealth generation has no limit then start seveal diffrent groups off at diffrent levels of wealth in the beginning, see how long (how many generations) are require for the disprate groups to diffuse into one another and across the scale of wealth possession.>>

I dunno, this experiment has been running since 1865 and the whites are still way ahead of the blacks.

<<There are at this point just as many poor white people as there are poor black people .>>

I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, it's no ringing endorsement of the American Way - - the blacks, who are about 13% of the general population, would make up 50% of the nation's poor.

[The_Professor]

<<I'll actually go with the more practical broke the law and went to jail card.  Do not pass Go, do not collect $200>>

Right.  And it's just pure coincidence that so many of those "law-breakers" are black.

This is indeed a fact. Why? No, really why? No cliches, please.

[Amianthus]

<<There are at this point just as many poor white people as there are poor black people .>>

I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, it's no ringing endorsement of the American Way - - the blacks, who are about 13% of the general population, would make up 50% of the nation's poor.

Actually, it's not true. There are lots more poor whites than poor blacks.

[Michael Tee]

<<Did the study compare prior arrests in this compilation?>>

Excellent question.  Prior arrests and criminal records were factored into the study.  The difficulty with them was that they too could have been influenced by racial factors.  Although they would obviously affect police decisions to lay charges.

I don't recall the details of that particular study but they were front-page news in the Toronto Star for about a week.  (The Star sponsored the study but they hired top-notch people to conduct it.)  Logically, you could avoid the influence of priors by studying the case histories of "clean" blacks and whites only, but I really don't recall how this particular study dealt with the issue.

[Michael Tee]

<<define economic justice.>>

Race and religion (and sexual orientation and place of origin and political opinions and family) play no role in determining one's economic opportunities or the livelihood one earns.  Everybody in the country entitled to a certain base-line level of economic support with access to basic decent food, shelter, health care and standard of living regardless of individual productivity.  And free trips to Miami Beach every winter paid for by special taxes on the top 1/2 of 1 per cent.

[BT]

Let me know when you want to discuss the issue seriously.

[The_Professor]

You realize all this is just crap, right? Namely, people are responsible for their own actions. If you were abused by your parents when you were young, eventually you must accept that fact and move on or scream "Worries me! Worries me!" or "It's not my fault!" or "See, I robbed that store at gunpoint because I was economically disadvangaed as a child". Grow up, people! By "buying" into this, you are enbaling them!

Crap, pure unadulterted bovine excrement.

[Michael Tee]

<<This [higher rates of incarceration for blacks] is indeed a fact. Why? No, really why? No cliches, please.>>

IMHO, it's part of the legacy of slavery.  Destruction of black families, systemic conditioning of acceptance of inferiority, generations of abysmally poor education, generations of lynch law leading to lives lived in fear, stress, frustration, humiliation and chronically poor parenting skills and lack of opportunities in early child deveopment all combine to a mind-set which, although diminishing over time, still affects large portions of the black community.  Shaneequa never had a chance because her mother never had a chance because her mother never had a chance . . .  all the way back to the days of slavery, which really is just four or five generations.  I was in high school when the last surviving member of the G.A.R. died, and at that time he was survived by four Confederate veterans.   The widow of the last Confederate veteran died in the 1970s.  (Excellent book by Tony Horowitz, Confederates in the Attic, deals with the traces of the Civil War surviving into our modern culture.  I remember during the Viet Nam war, Secretary of State Dean Rusk casually mentioned his being the grandson of Confederate veterans and I remember thinking, Jesus! I could have a conversation with a man who recalls discussing the Civil War with guys who were actually there.  It's gonna take a long time for all that shit to work its way out of the system.  Affirmative action was a way of making it disappear faster.  Of course it resulted in a lot of injustice to innocent whites.  There's a price to be paid for everything.  Without affirmative action there would be injustice to the innocent grandchildren and great-grandchildren of slaves.  It's always been a tough call.

[Michael Tee]

<<Let me know when you want to discuss the issue seriously. >>

That was serious.  Last line only excepted.

[Michael Tee]

<<You realize all this is just crap, right? Namely, people are responsible for their own actions. If you were abused by your parents when you were young, eventually you must accept that fact and move on or scream "Worries me! Worries me!" or "It's not my fault!" or "See, I robbed that store at gunpoint because I was economically disadvangaed as a child". Grow up, people! By "buying" into this, you are enbaling them!>>

No, I don't realize it's all crap.  I think your analysis of the situation is childishly simplistic (as are almost all right-wing POVs) and just cavalierly ignores reams of published studies on the subject.  Early childhood development DOES have a significant effect on parenting skills, which obviously will be passed on to the next generation.  Deny it all you like, there is no scientific evidence to support you.  And the stats on rates of incarceration by race throw it all back in your face.

Yes people are responsible for their own actions and the slave owners and slave traders of Amerikkka have a lot to be responsible for.  Their heirs inherited that responsibility and it's not surprising that they try to weasel out of it any way they can, but their standard line of everyone responsible for his own actions is unintentionally hilarious.  Who the fuck is responsible for the slave-masters' actions if not their heirs, the people who inherited the slave-built foundations from them?

[fatman]

That there is a disproportion of blacks to whites in the prison population is indisputable, though I'm not going to pretend to know why that is (other than the reasoning I put out in the original post).  However, even in predominantly white states (Montana, Idaho, Alaska, etc.) the incarceration rates are still high.  Rich, in an above post, asks why the black man is in jail, then answers himself by saying that he did the crime.  That's fine and dandy and all, but the chances are the white guy did it too, he could just afford a better attorney, and therefore a better defense.  While there is some good debate going on as to economic injustice in black vs white, the only one I've seen touch on the incarceration issue as a whole is BT, who pointed out drug crimes and "revenue enhancement".

We have seizure laws allowing police and governments to confiscate vehicles, land, houses, cash, valuables.  This is the ultimate "revenue enhancement".   I think that the cop was in the stall next to Larry Craig not in order to really cut back the bathroom sex rate, but to get more money for the police.  The whole system is for profit, the police benefit, the attorneys benefit, the government benefits, the prison and related industries benefit.  The only ones who don't benefit are the convicted and society as a whole.

Personally, I do a lot of prison outreach volunteer work with my local St. Vincent De Paul and Catholic Community Services charities.  I see the effect of people getting out of prison with no job skills, no rehabilitation (for most), nowhere to go, no employment or housing opportunities.  Until we as a society and culture begin to address some of the issues leading to incarceration, and what to do with the incarcerated, this is a circle that won't be unbroken. 

I don't know about other states or the Federal prison system BT, but here is the crime breakdown for incarceration in Washington State (these are rough estimates, not exact, and I don't have any data regarding prior arrests).

Property Crimes:  Burglary, theft, arson, fraud etc.  25%

Sex Crimes:  Molestation, rape, kidnapping etc.  20%

Personal Crimes:  Assault, homicide, manslaughter 25%

Drug Crimes:  Possession, distribution, manufacturing  30%

If you include the effects of drugs on the other crime categories, then drug crimes would be drastically higher, i.e. the burgler who steals to support a habit, the killing of a drug dealer, things like that.

So, an open question to the forum:  Is there a better way to correct the problems of society than to incarcerate high numbers of citizens?

[Amianthus]

Well, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that it's "cool" among the young black community to make poor grades in school and get involved with illegal drugs.

[The_Professor]

I, for one, do not dispute the numbers. But, I am tired of hearing the same crap. Pick yourself up by your bootstraps, O Disadvantaged. Bill Cosby tried to address this and got ridiculed.

Excuses don't mean squat. Results do.

[Rich]

>>Rich, in an above post, asks why the black man is in jail, then answers himself by saying that he did the crime.  That's fine and dandy and all, but the chances are the white guy did it too, he could just afford a better attorney, and therefore a better defense.<<

I don't buy the "more money means means no jail" excuse. Have you ever seen, or spoken to members of the White population in prison? They are in there for the same reasons the Black inmates are in there. They did it. It's not about money. Prison populations are made up of the same kind of people whether they're White or they're Black. Guilty people. Criminals. Usually habitual criminals.  It's true that Blacks make up more than half of most prison populations. Because they did it. Feel free to address the reasons for the percentage of crimes committed by Blacks if you like, but they did it. Of course there are examples of good lawyers getting the guilty off the hook, but that is rare in our system. Black, White, Hispanic, male, female, chances are good that if you're in prison you committed a crime. Probably more than once.

[fatman]

Well, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that it's "cool" among the young black community to make poor grades in school and get involved with illegal drugs.

I'm in agreement ami.  How do we fix this?  Our answers thusfar seem only to perpetuate the problem.


I, for one, do not dispute the numbers. But, I am tired of hearing the same crap. Pick yourself up by your bootstraps, O Disadvantaged. Bill Cosby tried to address this and got ridiculed.

I'm a big fan of the work that Bill Cosby has tried to do, and I certainly don't ridicule his efforts.  You may be tired of hearing the same crap, but how do we change the cycle?  Or am I correct in my opinion that you don't believe the cycle needs to be changed?  If so, why?

I don't buy the "more money means means no jail" excuse.

The great thing about this country is that you don't have to buy it.  However, your tax dollars are.  More money might not mean no jail, but it usually translates into reduced crimes and sentences.

Have you ever seen, or spoken to members of the White population in prison?

What part of the volunteer prison outreach didn't you understand?  I speak to prisoners and felons on a regular basis.  Washington state is mostly white, especially outside of the Snohomish-King-Pierce county areas.  I live in Skagit county, predominantly white, with the occasional Hispanic.  So yes, I've spoken to members of the white population in prison.

They are in there for the same reasons the Black inmates are in there. They did it. It's not about money. Prison populations are made up of the same kind of people whether they're White or they're Black. Guilty people. Criminals. Usually habitual criminals.  It's true that Blacks make up more than half of most prison populations. Because they did it. Feel free to address the reasons for the percentage of crimes committed by Blacks if you like, but they did it. Of course there are examples of good lawyers getting the guilty off the hook, but that is rare in our system. Black, White, Hispanic, male, female, chances are good that if you're in prison you committed a crime. Probably more than once.

I'm not going to dispute this statement, because it's mostly true (other than the part about money having nothing to do with it).  However, it does nothing to answer my main question, how do we fix it?  Mandatory sentencing isn't cutting the crime rate, only adding to the problem.  We brand these peoples as felons, making it difficult if not impossible to find employment or housing, then expect them to reintegrate into society and pull themselves up by the bootstraps.  How do you do that when you can't get a job or a home?  So these people with no resources, no skills, reoffend and end up back in the pen, where you and I get to pay for their upkeep.  Then they get out and do the same thing again.  Is it any wonder that they're habitual?  I'm not disputing that it's not impossible for these people to dig themselves out of the hole they're in.  I've seen it first hand.  However, most of the people successful at this have some form of resources, job skills, something that they can build on.  It seems to me that a lot of us are focused on the punishment aspect, an aspect that hasn't been proven to be an effective deterrent, and minimized any form of rehabilitation, believeing it to be a reward for bad behavior, when in truth these efforts tend to cut recidivism.  I'd think it be in all of our best interests, regardless of political persuasion, to take an objective look at the whole aspect of the criminal justice system.