Author Topic: Strong executive or Rule of Law?  (Read 12656 times)

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Plane

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2007, 12:04:45 AM »
Pelosi recently told a group of liberal bloggers, “We can take the president to court” if he issues a signing statement, according to Kid Oakland, a blogger who covered Pelosi’s remarks for the liberal website dailykos.com.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/pelosi-threat-to-sue-bush-over-iraq-bill-2007-05-08.html

[][][][][][][][][][][][]][][][][][]

This seems like the right approach.

_JS

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2007, 10:05:52 AM »
Quote
Allowing the Constitution to be abstracted would kill it as an effective tool of government , no matter how intelligent or educate our people in charge become I want there to be a real leash on them.

When changes are needed , they should be discussed untill the public undestands the need , then the process of applying admendments should be followed in detail.

The problem Plane is that this is a view that is not compatible with reality. Griswold used the Ninth Amendment to ascertain that the constitution does indeed protect the right to privacy in the marriage bed.

Whether you agree or disagree with a state's right to interfere with marital privacy is immaterial, the question is whether the state has such a right. The SCOTUS says that they do not.

We do not need 25,000 amendments to the constitution to grant everything from marital privacy to setting standards for "meaningful access to justice." That would be a ludicrous policy and turn the judiciary into a meaningless branch.

I don't agree with Griswold, but that is my own convictions, not because some state legislature voted on some Act. State legislatures should not have carte blanche until the next election.
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Plane

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2007, 10:14:38 AM »
Quote
Allowing the Constitution to be abstracted would kill it as an effective tool of government , no matter how intelligent or educate our people in charge become I want there to be a real leash on them.

When changes are needed , they should be discussed untill the public undestands the need , then the process of applying admendments should be followed in detail.

The problem Plane is that this is a view that is not compatible with reality. Griswold used the Ninth Amendment to ascertain that the constitution does indeed protect the right to privacy in the marriage bed.

Whether you agree or disagree with a state's right to interfere with marital privacy is immaterial, the question is whether the state has such a right. The SCOTUS says that they do not.

We do not need 25,000 amendments to the constitution to grant everything from marital privacy to setting standards for "meaningful access to justice." That would be a ludicrous policy and turn the judiciary into a meaningless branch.

I don't agree with Griswold, but that is my own convictions, not because some state legislature voted on some Act. State legislatures should not have carte blanche until the next election.

You are just telling me that Griswald is just as important as Roe vs Wade and just as wrong.

There should indeed not be a lot of admendments, there should not be that much government at all.

_JS

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2007, 10:21:56 AM »
Quote
You are just telling me that Griswald is just as important as Roe vs Wade and just as wrong.

It is. Both allow for the extermination of life.

But I don't need a legislature to tell me that. Nor do I believe the court is necessarily wrong in their interpretation of the law.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2007, 10:25:27 AM »
Quote
You are just telling me that Griswald is just as important as Roe vs Wade and just as wrong.

It is. Both allow for the extermination of life.

But I don't need a legislature to tell me that. Nor do I believe the court is necessarily wrong in their interpretation of the law.



The Court is simply the wrong place to make that law, it would have been proper for the court to insist that the lefgislature do its job.

domer

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2007, 04:33:09 PM »
The thing both Plane and JS are skirting is the absolutely essential nature -- the make-or-break character -- of individual rights in the founding of our polity. Indeed, these rights were sketched in the founding document, subject to development. It can be argued that the very structure of the government -- democratic governance -- necessarily implies certain rights, like the right to free expression. But we are not left to build from scratch; we are left to elaborate from principle. And while the political branches of government are often responsive to and involved in the enterprise of expanding or contracting individual rights, it is always the non-political branch, the judiciary, which, by its very nature, is the last arbiter on individual rights. The jurisprudence flowing from the interface of government and individual within the arena of rights produces -- and purposely so -- an intellectual output or body of work which forms the granite-like foundation as the ground upon which life is to be lived. (The "granite character" of any giving ruling is as sound as its reasoning gauged by the circumstances of its times and the historical staying power it can claim.) In the final analysis, when all pushes have come to shoves, it is this body of learning which determines the character of our freedoms, and it purposely harkens to principles largely out of the reach of popular or mob influence.

_JS

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2007, 04:45:58 PM »
Quote
In the final analysis, when all pushes have come to shoves, it is this body of learning which determines the character of our freedoms, and it purposely harkens to principles largely out of the reach of popular or mob influence.

I think that is truly essential.

Out of curiosity Domer, would you have agreed or dissented in Griswold and Roe?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

domer

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2007, 06:14:46 PM »
JS, I would have joined the majority opinion in Griswold, readily. Its reasoning is now dim to me, but the bedrock notion of privacy as a core right throughout our history, even if tacit, and a developing right in the face of encroachments by modern society is so essential as not even to be questioned, to my way of thinking. Extending that notion (which I can go even farther and claim as a sine qua non right of our life together, indeed a "foundational right" upon which most others rest) to, as the Court framed it, "marital privacy," and subsuming under that mantle methods of managing family size through the use of medical aids to the most private of interactions, is about as natural (pardon the pun) a use of the doctrine as I can imagine. There's one more thing I want to note: Griswold addressed a state's intrusion into private matters, scrutable under the 14th Amendment's due process clause. Originally, the first ten amendments did not apply to the states. After passage of the 14th, a concerted effort was made to give "content" to the 14th's due process clause vis-a-via the states. One famous test (Justice Jackson?) was to fathom the needs of "an ordered liberty." There were other such assays. Gradually, the Court settled upon a process of serial "incorporation" of specific rights, but, throughout that effort and beyond, the relevant text remained the 14th's due process clause, with incorporation informing, but I suggest not limiting, its scope. Thus, the famous "penumbras" of Griswold and later (by implication?) Roe were "natural canopies" in 14th-due process jurisprudence, not only there all along but by necessity.

As to Roe, I'll be much briefer. I will nod in the direction of liberal cant and say that while I am conflicted (yet) about the procedure (especially, for me, regarding any fetus that looks remotely like a kid), I defer to others who may disagree and who actually face this potentially agonizing decision. Yet, as I prefer to understand the problem, perhaps slavishly obeisant to the Roe opinion itself, the core of the conflict is the Court's failure to "recognize" a fetus (though there are gradations, up to viability) as a "person" itself within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. Failing that, the fetus simply remains a part of the woman's body (up to viability), and, under a naturally extended right of privacy, subject to her best judgment as to how it should be treated.

Plane

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2007, 02:55:17 AM »
".....the core of the conflict is the Court's failure to "recognize" a fetus (though there are gradations, up to viability) as a "person" itself within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. "


I agree , but why is there such a hazy definition of "person"?

_JS

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2007, 09:30:04 AM »
Well-stated Domer.

It is extremely difficult to argue with marital privacy (or even non-marital privacy of the bedroom depending upon age of consent and a few other factors). Even the dissenting opinion of Griswold considered the Connecticut law ridiculous.

As you likely know, I disagree with the use of contraception (especially abortofacient contraception) and I certainly disagree with abortion. What are the possibilities, aside from legal arguments, for making changes that are based in morality more than legality?

Is this more about the prevailing zeitgeist?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

domer

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2007, 05:15:15 PM »
JS, responding to your last question may be like an exercise in true confessions. As I've said (and this graphic drives the point home to me in heart-rending fashion), seeing pictures of fetuses (how young?) that look like kids repels me when the association is made that they could be/have been aborted. My feelings are not bound to any religio-philosophic foundation, except as a cumulative product of my life experiences, unparsed and undifferentiated however they may be. Yet, as with much in life, I choose my fights, and there are countless instances in which love, charity and basic human decency can find focus and expression, but certainly not all, or even a significant fraction, susceptible to my limited ministrations. But there is an overlay here, which one may term philosophic, that recognizes in a nation (or world) of great diversity of scientific understanding and religious conviction that honest, forthright, conscious-driven, God-fearing folks, for example, who might not share my perceptions, or, if sharing them, might override them by appeal to a greater good. And I leave it at that.

As to a change in abortion attitudes and practices, I tend to agree that a sea-change in the Zeitgeist on certain core feelings, attitudes, behaviors and understandings may be the only way effectively to curb the scandal that abortion can become. I hasten to add, however, that eliminating a 16-cell zygote, say, from the uterus is not something I find offensive in any sense, an instance where the "part of a woman's body" conception of the problem is both palpable and compelling.

Plane

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2007, 08:59:44 PM »
Quote
Allowing the Constitution to be abstracted would kill it as an effective tool of government , no matter how intelligent or educate our people in charge become I want there to be a real leash on them.

When changes are needed , they should be discussed until the public understands the need , then the process of applying amendments should be followed in detail.

The problem Plane is that this is a view that is not compatible with reality. Griswold used the Ninth Amendment to ascertain that the constitution does indeed protect the right to privacy in the marriage bed.

Whether you agree or disagree with a state's right to interfere with marital privacy is immaterial, the question is whether the state has such a right. The SCOTUS says that they do not.

We do not need 25,000 amendments to the constitution to grant everything from marital privacy to setting standards for "meaningful access to justice." That would be a ludicrous policy and turn the judiciary into a meaningless branch.

I don't agree with Griswold, but that is my own convictions, not because some state legislature voted on some Act. State legislatures should not have carte blanche until the next election.


How did they ignore amendment ten?
The ability to choose out the words ,and ignore some parts, is as strong as the power of authorship.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmentix

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2007, 10:33:19 PM »
I suggest that the difference between a foetus and a baby is obvious to anyone with pretty much any two of the five senses.

But I shall elaborate.

Babies are OUTSIDE their mother's bodies.  Foeti are not.

Foeti are not fully human. Babies are.

It is simple as sh*t.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2007, 10:38:33 PM »
Babies are OUTSIDE their mother's bodies.  Foeti are not.  Foeti are not fully human. Babies are.  It is simple as sh*t.

And yet those who have killed Pregnant women, be it accidentally or thru murder, are charged with the death of 2 HUMANS.  Hmmmmm, how's that work?  Not so simple now, is it
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: Strong executive or Rule of Law?
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2007, 12:22:40 AM »
That's one view among many, XO, even if less intelligent than most.