Author Topic: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End  (Read 1388 times)

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Michael Tee

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Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« on: April 27, 2010, 09:52:41 PM »
<<Wisconsin Democratic Senator Russ Feingold, House Democrat Jim McGovern from Massachusetts, and House Republican Walter Jones from North Carolina have introduced legislation that would require President Obama to establish a timetable for withdrawing US troops from Afghanistan. The bill has quickly picked up 29 co-sponsors, and could reach 100 within the next few weeks.>>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/apr/23/usforeignpolicy-afghanistan

Does this mean that the House will pass the legislation?  Probably not, but it won't matter, in terms of the end result.  The writing is now on the wall.  The message to the Afghans is, "Don't waste your time, your money or your life.  This bill or something like it won't pass this year or even next year.  But it will pass.  This time, or next time, or the time after that.  The Americans aren't serious and they aren't gonna stay.  The longer this thing goes on, the more inevitable the U.S. bug-out.  So if you want to live for longer than the next five years, DO NOT piss off the Taliban.  DO NOT go that extra mile.  And make sure somebody you can trust knows that you planted an IED."

Good article and makes a lotta sense.  I take the basic position that this war is an open-ended sinkhole, the U.S. is draining its resources too fast to be able to keep it up much longer, and so one way or another a face-saving way has to be found to cut and run.  THIS scenario is as good as any, if it plays out.  And if it doesn't, another scenario will have to be found.

Kramer

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2010, 10:06:26 PM »
It sure will be nice when the Taliban get back in business stoning homos & adulterers, oppressing women and children. I'm sure they will count the days with joyful anticipation of being able to chop off more heads, support terrorists and face east to pray to their loving, tolerant god and prophet. The sort of chilling things people like you celebrate stone age people having the right to do.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 10:21:03 PM by Kramer »

Michael Tee

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2010, 10:16:24 PM »
Who gives a shit?  The Taliban aren't my problem or your problem.  They're Afghans and the problem of the Afghan people.

If the Afghan people find it more comfortable living under a Taliban regime rather than having their wedding parties blown up one after another, their women tied up and executed by Special Forces morons who then try to dig the bullets out of their bodies to destroy the evidence and their schoolboys blown to bits on the highways by a bunch of lying murdering infidels, that is their decision to make and not ours.

As bad as the Taliban are, the U.S. and NATO forces are not all that better (if at all) and so this phony morality of denouncing the Taliban while excusing every NATO massacre as "error" or whatever is not very convincing.  At the very best, the NATO forces are incredibly careless of Afghan civilian life, and considering the enormous firepower they have at their disposal, one "careless" error wreaks as much carnage as twenty deliberate Taliban atrocities.  The Afghans may well have decided that the Taliban are less of a menace to them than the NATO forces.

Kramer

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2010, 10:31:12 PM »
Who gives a shit?  The Taliban aren't my problem or your problem.  They're Afghans and the problem of the Afghan people.

If the Afghan people find it more comfortable living under a Taliban regime rather than having their wedding parties blown up one after another, their women tied up and executed by Special Forces morons who then try to dig the bullets out of their bodies to destroy the evidence and their schoolboys blown to bits on the highways by a bunch of lying murdering infidels, that is their decision to make and not ours.

As bad as the Taliban are, the U.S. and NATO forces are not all that better (if at all) and so this phony morality of denouncing the Taliban while excusing every NATO massacre as "error" or whatever is not very convincing.  At the very best, the NATO forces are incredibly careless of Afghan civilian life, and considering the enormous firepower they have at their disposal, one "careless" error wreaks as much carnage as twenty deliberate Taliban atrocities.  The Afghans may well have decided that the Taliban are less of a menace to them than the NATO forces.

I guess the homo that got his head chopped off cared. But who gives a shit he was just a homo not deserving to live because others were threatened by his perverted sexual behavior. Surely a young girl would be more than happy to wear clothing head to toe during those 130 degree summers but who gives a shit because she is just a dumb bitch. The starving guy that stole a loaf of bread understands why his hands were chopped off. Or the 12 year old girl that was raped really enjoyed the stoning she got when her future husband found out the bitch was impure. Yeah who gives a shit?

Michael Tee

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2010, 10:57:23 PM »
Kinda one-sided on the crocodile tears for the suffering Afghan people, aren't we?

The father of the bride sure gave a shit when the bride and the entire wedding party were blown to pieces and the sons and husbands of the three women tied up and executed gave a shit about that although I'm sure they appreciated that the Special Forces goons who murdered them then tried to dig the bullets out of their corpses.  The taxi driver who drove past Baghram Base must have given a shit during the three days that it took his American jailers to torture him to death by pulping his innards, but who cares about him, he was probably over-charging his fares.

See, Kramer, anybody can write this sentimental slop about the innocent victims of the conflict.  The Taliban aren't nice but neither is NATO.  But the Taliban are Afghans.  Maybe the Afghans would rather cover up their women than take the chance on their whole wedding party being blown to shit by American drones.  Maybe those stonings that you are so concerned about don't happen all that often and maybe there's worse suffering and death coming at them from the skies above for them to care. 

See the U.S. already supports barbaric regimes that torture and kill their own subjects anyway.  If they were really interested in thieves not getting their hands cut off for stealing loaves of bread, they don't have to blow hundreds of billions of dollars to stop it in Afghanistan, in fact they could save billions by not supporting the Saudi Arabian regime.  How's that for a handy solution to a problem?  Stop mutilation of thieves  AND save money by doing so.  Well of course the absurdity of that little solution to a problem just tells us that there is no problem.   The U.S. government doesn't give a shit about thieves or their hands - - or about rape victims being stoned - - or about any of the problems of suffering victims of Islamic intolerance, because in fact they support a regime which does all of the above.  Although I guess the fake concern comes in handy for roping in dopes who swallow it all unthinkingly, and parrot it all back instinctively.

Kramer

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2010, 11:13:56 PM »
Kinda one-sided on the crocodile tears for the suffering Afghan people, aren't we?

The father of the bride sure gave a shit when the bride and the entire wedding party were blown to pieces and the sons and husbands of the three women tied up and executed gave a shit about that although I'm sure they appreciated that the Special Forces goons who murdered them then tried to dig the bullets out of their corpses.  The taxi driver who drove past Baghram Base must have given a shit during the three days that it took his American jailers to torture him to death by pulping his innards, but who cares about him, he was probably over-charging his fares.

See, Kramer, anybody can write this sentimental slop about the innocent victims of the conflict.  The Taliban aren't nice but neither is NATO.  But the Taliban are Afghans.  Maybe the Afghans would rather cover up their women than take the chance on their whole wedding party being blown to shit by American drones.  Maybe those stonings that you are so concerned about don't happen all that often and maybe there's worse suffering and death coming at them from the skies above for them to care. 

See the U.S. already supports barbaric regimes that torture and kill their own subjects anyway.  If they were really interested in thieves not getting their hands cut off for stealing loaves of bread, they don't have to blow hundreds of billions of dollars to stop it in Afghanistan, in fact they could save billions by not supporting the Saudi Arabian regime.  How's that for a handy solution to a problem?  Stop mutilation of thieves  AND save money by doing so.  Well of course the absurdity of that little solution to a problem just tells us that there is no problem.   The U.S. government doesn't give a shit about thieves or their hands - - or about rape victims being stoned - - or about any of the problems of suffering victims of Islamic intolerance, because in fact they support a regime which does all of the above.  Although I guess the fake concern comes in handy for roping in dopes who swallow it all unthinkingly, and parrot it all back instinctively.

Since much of the planning and training of 9/11 happened in Afghanistan then too bad for the Taliban because when they gave Osama the welcome mat it included US and NATO Forces too. The Taliban learned a lesson on that one.

Michael Tee

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2010, 12:08:59 AM »
<<Since much of the planning and training of 9/11 happened in Afghanistan then too bad for the Taliban because when they gave Osama the welcome mat it included US and NATO Forces too. The Taliban learned a lesson on that one.>>

You better make up your mind on why you're there.  First you were going all weepy about the poor rape victims who'd get stoned if you weren't there, now it seems it's really all about punishing the Taliban for 9-11.  And I guess you've expanded your definition of Taliban because now it might as well be "wedding party guests," housewives and schoolboys or any other targets of convenience for the trigger-happy thugs that make up the U.S. military.

Kramer

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 12:45:47 AM »
<<Since much of the planning and training of 9/11 happened in Afghanistan then too bad for the Taliban because when they gave Osama the welcome mat it included US and NATO Forces too. The Taliban learned a lesson on that one.>>

You better make up your mind on why you're there.  First you were going all weepy about the poor rape victims who'd get stoned if you weren't there, now it seems it's really all about punishing the Taliban for 9-11.  And I guess you've expanded your definition of Taliban because now it might as well be "wedding party guests," housewives and schoolboys or any other targets of convenience for the trigger-happy thugs that make up the U.S. military.

How many wedding party's are you referring to?
I betcha more people are killed in East LA weddings, gunned down by illegal gang members than die at weddings in Afghanistan. I betcha more bros are murdered at weddings in Chicago, Obama's town, than have been killed by NATO Forces over the last 8 years. I bet more people are killed in Toronto annually due to drunk driving than all deaths in Afghanistan by US & NATO Forces combined over the last 8 years.

Michael Tee

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 01:36:56 AM »
<<How many wedding party's are you referring to?>>

Are you shitting me?  Happens all the time:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/11/afghanistan.usa

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2008/07/20087617040669321.html

http://afghantribes.com/world_news/forty-killed-in-wedding-strike.html
and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7710566.stm (I believe these are two reports of the same wedding)

http://www.rawa.org/s-wedding.htm

That's just a few - - the first two pages of a google search (Afghan weddings dead killed)  - If I had more time, I am positive there are more weddings.  But I wouldn't want to leave anyone with the impression that the U.S. Murder Corps restricts its civilian victims to wedding parties - - they kill farmers, school-children, teachers, mosque-goers.  Basically anyone not in uniform and sufficiently non-European looking is good enough for target practice or fun killings.

I hope you are not working as a wedding planner in East L.A. and advising people to hold their weddings in Afghanistan for reasons of safety.  You might have some seriously disgruntled clients to deal with if they survive their napalm injuries.



BT

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 02:09:07 AM »
In the years since 2005, the mounting insurgency has resulted in more direct civilian deaths being caused each year by insurgent actions than by coalition military action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29#Civilian_casualties_by_insurgent_forces

Michael Tee

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 08:16:52 AM »
BT linked to the following Wikipedia article: (article in brackets, my comments unbracketed)

<<While most of the Afghan protests have been over the civilian casualties caused by international military forces, on October 24, 2008, over 1,000 Afghans also took to the streets of Mihtarlam  in eastern Afghanistan to protest the killing of 26 young men by Taliban militants. A Taliban spokesperson said the men who were taken off a bus were targeted because they were members or recruits of Afghan security forces, but Afghan officials said that the men were civilians on their way to Iran to find work.[91]>>

The Taliban is favoured by many Afghans because it represents honest and incorruptible (although obviously harsh and mediaeval) government, as opposed to the unbelievably crooked and corrupt Karzai puppet government.  So, who to believe?  Taliban or puppet government?  Believe me, for the Afghan people themselves, it's a no-brainer.  That's what I thought.  But . . .

What about "over 1,000" Afghans "taking to the streets" to protest the killing? Just apply Joe Girard's "Rule of 250" to the situation - - 250 people might be the norm in nuclear-family America, but in a country like Afghanistan, where tribal, clan and family relationships are crucial, 250 people would probably be the measure of the most insignificant nobody in the country.  If none of the 26 casualties were related to one another, 1000 protestors would represent fewer than 40 protestors per casualty; if each casualty was related to one other casualty, fewer than 80 protestors per victim-pair; if the victims were related to one another in groups of four, fewer than 160 protestors per victim-family. 

Even if this were an unjustified attack on the bus (i.e. an attack on job-seekers rather than collaborators) this is a relatively minuscule turn-out for a protest.  You would expect that, in addition to the family and friends of the victims, total strangers would turn out for the protest.  Even by American standards, and assuming the victims represented a total of 6.5 kinship groups, you'd expect 6.5 x 250 = over 1,600 plus outraged strangers to protest the killings.  And of course, this being Afghanistan and not the U.S.A., you'd expect an even higher "Girard Number" than 250, and a correspondingly bigger crowd of genuine protestors.

OTOH, in 90% Karzai country (see the "election" results further down in this post,) it wouldn't be hard at all to mobilize 1,000 government loyalists to "protest" the killings.

(for the Joe Girard "Rule of 250," see http://somedesa.com/coolnetworkingnews/networking/networking-tip-joe-girards-rule-of-250/)

Personally, I think it's more than likely that the bus was full of collaborationist recruits for the puppet police or army, a legitimate target in a civil war and the Taliban are telling the truth.  How does Karzai poll 90% support from the region if busloads of young men have to leave it to seek work in Iran?  Where else would Karzai recruit for his puppet forces, if not from a region that gives him 90% support?  Even if the votes are rigged, you'd expect the districts rigged to produce 90% support are fairly rich in Karzai supporters anyway - - they wouldn't rig a 90% vote in a region where his support was lowest.

Mihtarlam is in overwhelmingly pro-Karzai country; Karzai took about 18,000 votes, about 90% of the vote there; http://afghanistanelectiondata.org/district/701. 

<<In considering civilian casualties caused collectively by insurgent forces, it should be noted that the armed insurgency in Afghanistan against the government and foreign military forces is composed of many diverse individuals and groups that are motivated by a range of different goals and ideologies, that do not necessarily identify as "Taliban", and that do not act under a single line of authority.[17]>>

Translation:  Even if the Taliban win and the U.S. forces leave, the "random" killing of civilians will go on, conducted by armed forces opposed to the Taliban; AND not all civilians killed by non-NATO forces were victims of the Taliban.

<<In the initial airstrikes and invasion, most of the direct civilian deaths were the result of U.S.-led airstrikes and groundfire. In the years since 2005, the mounting insurgency has resulted in more direct civilian deaths being caused each year by insurgent actions than by coalition military action. Overall, however, the number of direct civilian casualties that have been attributed to insurgent forces by the available estimates remains less than the number that have been attributed to U.S.-led airstrikes and groundfire since 2001.>>

Doesn't THAT really say it all?  That last sentence?  The infidel invaders are STILL causing more Afghan civilian deaths than the so-called "insurgents."  AND, moreover, that the longer the foreigners stay in Afghanistan, the higher the civilian body count.  In a civil war one expects civilian casualties because the populace is at war with each other.  It is the presence of foreigners that allows the civil war to grind on, and without them the civil war will come to an end (admittedly with a bunch of nuts winning control of the country) and the civilian casualty rate will immediately plummet.

Plane

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2010, 08:57:21 AM »
Who gives a shit?  The Taliban aren't my problem or your problem.  They're Afghans and the problem of the Afghan people.

If the Afghan people find it more comfortable living under a Taliban regime rather than having their wedding parties blown up one after another, their women tied up and executed by Special Forces morons who then try to dig the bullets out of their bodies to destroy the evidence and their schoolboys blown to bits on the highways by a bunch of lying murdering infidels, that is their decision to make and not ours.

As bad as the Taliban are, the U.S. and NATO forces are not all that better (if at all) and so this phony morality of denouncing the Taliban while excusing every NATO massacre as "error" or whatever is not very convincing.  At the very best, the NATO forces are incredibly careless of Afghan civilian life, and considering the enormous firepower they have at their disposal, one "careless" error wreaks as much carnage as twenty deliberate Taliban atrocities.  The Afghans may well have decided that the Taliban are less of a menace to them than the NATO forces.

Have you thought of asking the Afganis?

The Taliban most certainly do not represent a majority , nor even a large minority .

They are in no respect better than the Natzis of 1935 Germany and in some respects worse.

In Particular they are worse for hosting Osama Bin Laden and protecting him from our wrath. Their direct connecttion with the Al Quieda gives us an entire right to go WHEREver they are includeing their own graqndmothers home , they ceeded all rights to us on 9-11. If there were really no danger that they would rebuild the haven of evil that the Al Queda enjoyed I would not be quite so eager to smite them.

As a secondary issue we might ought to mitigate harm to the innocent as much as we can and leave the innocent in charge when we leave, we might even leave the innocent well armed .

BT

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2010, 12:02:02 PM »
Quote
Doesn't THAT really say it all?  That last sentence?  The infidel invaders are STILL causing more Afghan civilian deaths than the so-called "insurgents."  AND, moreover, that the longer the foreigners stay in Afghanistan, the higher the civilian body count.  In a civil war one expects civilian casualties because the populace is at war with each other.

What is says is that at the beginning of the war the trend was for coalition forced to kill more civilians.

After 2005 insurgents have taken the lead.

Michael Tee

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 12:49:06 PM »
<<Have you thought of asking the Afganis?>>

And how do you propose that I go about doing that?  

<<The Taliban most certainly do not represent a majority , nor even a large minority .>>

Oh.  So I guess then that YOU have asked the Afghanis.

<<They are in no respect better than the Natzis of 1935 Germany and in some respects worse.>>

Really?  By 1935 the Nazis had already murdered their way into power in Germany, set up torture chambers and execution basements all over the land, liquidated their S.A. opponents on their right in the Night of the Long Knives, established the Dachau concentration camp and passed the Nuremberg Racial Laws.  In what ways do you think that the Taliban have equaled the Nazis of 1935 Germany, let alone surpassed them?  Details, please.

<<In Particular they are worse for hosting Osama Bin Laden and protecting him from our wrath. >>

How are they "worse" for hosting a man whom the U.S.A. itself was providing with weapons and support?  That is absolute craziness. As far as protecting him from your wrath, that is absolute bullshit.  I recall very well what happened at the time from reading newspaper accounts:  they demanded proof of OBL's culpability before handing him over and the Bush administration basically told them to go fuck themselves.  Far as I can see, the Taliban were acting perfectly reasonably, and the Bush administration, as usual, was acting like a gang of meth-crazed psychopaths.

<<Their direct connecttion with the Al Quieda gives us an entire right to go WHEREver they are includeing their own graqndmothers home , they ceeded all rights to us on 9-11.>>

They were perfectly within their rights in demanding proof of culpability before handing over OBL to your "justice" system.  Any other civilized country in the world would have made the exact same demand in one form or another.  If subsequent events have shown us anything, it is that the Bush administration had zero regard for the norms of international law and justice, practiced torture routinely (waterboarding one unfortunate victim 183 times) and was proposing to have its victims "tried" in farcical military kangaroo courts presided over by career military officers of the criminal U.S. armed forces.  

<<If there were really no danger that they would rebuild the haven of evil that the Al Queda enjoyed I would not be quite so eager to smite them.>>

"Haven of evil" my ass.   The U.S. is a bigger "haven of evil" than any of those two-bit mediaeval morons could ever hope to construct.  I think the sooner we get away from all of this moralistic finger-pointing and quasi-Biblical language of calumny and return to a rational discussion of the rights of sovereign states under the UN Charter and the rights of individuals under the UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights, the quicker we could reach some rational conclusions.

<<As a secondary issue we might ought to mitigate harm to the innocent as much as we can . . . >>

Yeah, well we've already seen from the leaked tapes of the New Baghdad Massacre how much chance there is of THAT happening in the real world.

<< . . . and leave the innocent in charge when we leave, we might even leave the innocent well armed .>>

The first guys you left well-armed in that hell-hole were the "innocent" OBL and his ilk, but let's play this out anyway.   Who are the "innocent" today (presumably at some point OBL and his fellow "freedom fighters" lost their mantle of "innocence")  and how did you - - or how will you  - - determine that issue, before arming them and leaving?  Inquiring minds need to know.

Michael Tee

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Re: Afghanistan - Beginning of the End
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2010, 01:23:32 PM »
<<What is says is that at the beginning of the war the trend was for coalition forced to kill more civilians.

<<After 2005 insurgents have taken the lead. >>

My apologies.  I was not reading that correctly and I see now that you are right.  Still, the "insurgents" are the participants in a civil war which is raging between a collaborator puppet government and other Afghans, chiefly the Taliban, who want to destroy the collaborators.  Naturally the insurgents will try to kill the collaborators.

Who is responsible for the on-going Afghan-on-Afghan slaughter of the civil war?  No-brainer - - the civil war was not only initiated by the Americans invading to destroy the existing Taliban government and replace it with their puppet Karzai government, but also perpetuated by them - - the civil war will grind on as long as the Americans stay to protect their puppet government.  It will end shortly after they leave.  The end of the war will end not only the slaughter of Afghan citizens by the U.S. Murder Corps, but will also end (or sharply diminish) the slaughter of puppet government collaborators by the Taliban, resulting in a net plus for the civilians of the country, counterbalanced only by the craziness of having to live under Taliban rule.  But that surely is a matter for the Afghan people themselves to decide - - whether to live in peace under a crazy Taliban government or to go back to another civil war and try to overthrow them.  To the Afghans themselves, it could well be that the benefits of peace under the Taliban are preferable to the rigors of war against them.