If You Were a Terrorist, How Would You Attack?

[Universe Prince]

I suggest you go back and read this thread.

I have.

Good, then maybe you noticed the answer to your question of who is speculating on how to kill citizens.

On the other hand, perhaps the folks at Fox hoped that just maybe a couple of the facilities managers for malls saw the show and wondered if their sites could be target hardened. Locked access, key control, vetting of maintenance personnel and vendors, etc etc etc.
http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=3535.msg31601#msg31601

Which is a more workable solution than your ideas about the illegal immigration situation which is basically to make it legal.

Please feel free to explain why that is so.

Almost as humorous as watching folks like Richpo suggest terrorist plots, is watching folks who routinely snipe at libertarians for "sitting in the bleachers complaining that govenment sucks" puff themselves up and declare that libertarian solutions are unworkable, particularly in the light of how poorly the so-called more practical solutions seem to be working now. But I confess, I am always happy to be persuaded that I'm wrong. (Almost always. That whole Dubai Ports World thing was a really nasty though eye-opening event.) So please, by all means, make your case. Prove me wrong. Either way, I get something out of it.

[BT]

But I confess, I am always happy to be persuaded that I'm wrong.

Simple. Resources are finite. Services are finite. Jobs are finite. Housing is finite. Food is finite.

And yet you want to open borders so that the 5.5 billion who don't live within the territory of the US can march right in and demand all of the above as if it is some universal right.

So how about we meet halfway. Open borders to anyone who can put 25k in escrow for a year while they get established?

Isn't that close to the requirement for legal immigrants. They need to have a sponsor who takes responsibility for them?

[kimba1]

but isn`t our food cheap because of illegal immigration?

and the jobs taken are usually the one nobody else will take

I`ved worked in a farm
lets just say ,it`ll be awhile I`ll be back there again.
backbreaking is right.

[BT]

but isn`t our food cheap because of illegal immigration?

Depends on whether you consider the majority of migrant workers illegal. I would hope  most of them would have work visas.

[_JS]

And yet you want to open borders so that the 5.5 billion who don't live within the territory of the US can march right in and demand all of the above as if it is some universal right.

It may come as a major shock, but not everyone in the entire world wishes to live in this country.

[BT]

If current estimates are correct at least 20 million people think this country provides a better way of life.

Perhaps you are implying that illegal immigration is an issue blown out of proportion. Much ado about nada. This is just politicians creating an issue so they can provide a solution and in the process gain more power.

[sirs]

And yet you want to open borders so that the 5.5 billion who don't live within the territory of the US can march right in and demand all of the above as if it is some universal right.

It may come as a major shock, but not everyone in the entire world wishes to live in this country.

By all means, please go elsewhere. (not specific to Js, obviously, unless he wishes to go elsewhere)

[Universe Prince]

Simple. Resources are finite. Services are finite. Jobs are finite. Housing is finite. Food is finite.

Yet we have an ample supply of much of this. And I disagree that jobs are finite.

And yet you want to open borders so that the 5.5 billion who don't live within the territory of the US can march right in and demand all of the above as if it is some universal right.

Did the people who live in Minnesota all move to New York? Did the people who live in Colorado all move to New Hampshire? Did the people who live in Arkansas all move to California? What makes you think we are at risk of all 5.5 billion people moving to the U.S.? That's not reasonable, and you know it.

Besides which, you're also missing part of the plan: open trade. No NAFTA nonsense, just open trade. Let the economic situation rise for people in Mexico, and the "flood" of them coming to the U.S. will diminish. And at the same, we will have a sharing of resources that will ultimately benefit us both.

And no, I am not proposing to let immigrants come here and demand jobs or housing or food or goods or services for free. I propose getting out of the way of people coming here and earning/paying for these things. I confess, I'm still mystified as to why you think a larger labor/consumer/tax base is so unworkable.

So Juan wants to come here from Mexico and work for a living. He wants to support his family, shop at local stores, buy a car, maybe even buy a house. What the frak is that to you or me unless we're employing him or selling to him? If Juan does the work and earns the money, should I be offended by his country of origin? No, of course not. If he is handing over money for food, should I be upset that he was born in Mexico? No, of course not. So why should I want to stand in his way to come here and do these things? What do I gain? If I stand in his way, and he sneaks past to work without paying taxes, is that a better outcome for the economic infrastructure here then if Juan was allowed to come, and work and pay taxes like everyone else here? Seems to me that everyone is better off if we stay out of his way.

So how about we meet halfway. Open borders to anyone who can put 25k in escrow for a year while they get established?

Isn't that close to the requirement for legal immigrants. They need to have a sponsor who takes responsibility for them?

If it's that close, how can it be considered halfway? How about something a little more reasonable. How about check points like Ellis Island used to be. We can even tech it up, make people scan fingerprints so we have something on record, get their names into computers and on they go. Anyone whose fingerprints are linked to serious criminal activity and, for lesser offenses, who hasn't also waited a reasonable waiting period, doesn't get in. Otherwise, most folks just go right in. I'm sure there are other details that would be worked out, but while it is not completely free access, it is also not ridiculously and needlessly impeding the progress of people who want to come here and work and maybe build better lives for their families.

[BT]

Prince,

There are two types of immigrants.

Legal and illegal.

I have no problems wth legal immigrants. I don't quite understand why you don't have a problem with illegal immigrants.

Trying to make this some kinda ethnic thing is bullshit.

It's about rewarding those who take shortcuts and game the system.

You want free trade, push for it. Merge Canada and Mexico with the US in some kind of European Union for all i care.  Don't secure the border. Move it.

You want to ease immigration restraints. Push for it. But let's not paint those who want the rules enforced as bigots, just because you disagree with those same rules.

Do a better job of selling your ideas instead of taking the lazy way out and demonizing those who disagree.

[sirs]

Prince, There are two types of immigrants.  Legal and illegal.  I have no problems wth legal immigrants. I don't quite understand why you don't have a problem with illegal immigrants.  Trying to make this some kinda ethnic thing is bullshit.  It's about rewarding those who take shortcuts and game the system.   You want to ease immigration restraints. Push for it.  But let's not paint those who want the rules enforced as bigots, just because you disagree with those same rules.  Do a better job of selling your ideas instead of taking the lazy way out and demonizing those who disagree.

Here here

[kimba1]

wellll
it is a little bit ethnic thing
when talking about illegals
very few times people have europeans or my people(canadian) in mind
when the last anyone complain about the irish.
it`s not like they`re all here legally
I know many who came here as visitors and are still here long after
and when I bring up the subject I never really get an answer
on this subject some ethnic groups are more illegal than others

[sirs]

wellll
it is a little bit ethnic thing
when talking about illegals
very few times people have europeans or my people(canadian) in mind
when the last anyone complain about the irish.
it`s not like they`re all here legally

Kimba, with all due respect, this is the erroeneous effort frequently made on this topic, taking the key component, that of the illegality of the act, by crossing into our country illegally, and trying to make it an ethinic/racial thing, simply because we happen to border Mexico.  If it were Ireland that we bordered, then it would be majority Irish crossing into this country illegally. 

The former is everything to this topic.  The latter is simply circumstantial, and has nothing to do with the former.  Yet used by many open border advocates by way of trying to apply the race card, when that is such a literal cop-out       

[kimba1]

I said alittle ethnic
it`s not a blatant thing
just subtle like when we think illegal
south of the border come to mind
never north
I`ve personally help deport somebody from quebec.

[BT]

I said alittle ethnic
it`s not a blatant thing
just subtle like when we think illegal
south of the border come to mind
never north
I`ve personally help deport somebody from quebec.

Perhaps in your mind.

In my mind i wouldn't know an illegal immigrant from a legal immigrant without seeing who runs when INS rolls up.

[Universe Prince]

I don't quite understand why you don't have a problem with illegal immigrants.

Then you haven't been paying attention. Some people think the problem is immigrants being here illegally. I think the problem is the laws that have made legal immigration so difficult that risking death and imprisonment is a preferable option for far too many immigrants. Not all the time, but sometimes the problem with people doing something illegal rests not with the people, but with the law(s).

Trying to make this some kinda ethnic thing is bullshit.

I'm not trying to make this some kinda ethnic thing. The example with the Juan from Mexico is just an example. You want one with Ivan or Sean or Jean, I can do that too. I used a Mexican because that seemed the most relevant. The point wasn't to care about the person's ethnicity, but to get out of the way of the immigrant.

It's about rewarding those who take shortcuts and game the system.

For you perhaps. I disagree. It's about getting out of the way of people who are not doing anything more than trying to earn money to make lives for themselves and their families. And that goes for whether they come from Mexico or Ireland or Iraq or Iceland or Greece or Russia or Brazil or Kenya or India or Canada or any place else. This isn't about ethnicity. This is about people.

You want free trade, push for it. Merge Canada and Mexico with the US in some kind of European Union for all i care.  Don't secure the border. Move it.

You want to ease immigration restraints. Push for it. But let's not paint those who want the rules enforced as bigots, just because you disagree with those same rules.

I did not paint anyone as bigots. You'll note, I did not use the word 'bigot' or 'racist' any other form thereof (direct, implied or otherwise). I also did not condemn anyone for disagreeing with me. I can only guess, but my guess is that you're offended by the paragraph with the example of Juan from Mexico. Since the discussion had turned to closing out borders, and since Mexico shares a border with the U.S. and since most of the illegal immigrants many folks complain about come from Mexico, that seemed like a reasonable example to make. But you're offended. Okay, so let's try something different so you don't feel like you're being called a bigot.

So Sean wants to come here from Ireland and work for a living. He wants to support his family, shop at local stores, buy a car, maybe even buy a house. What the frak is that to you or me unless we're employing him or selling to him? If Sean does the work and earns the money, should I be offended by his country of origin? No, of course not. If he is handing over money for food, should I be upset that he was born in Ireland? No, of course not. So why should I want to stand in his way to come here and do these things? What do I gain? If I stand in his way, and he sneaks past to work without paying taxes, is that a better outcome for the economic infrastructure here then if Sean was allowed to come, and work and pay taxes like everyone else here? Seems to me that everyone is better off if we stay out of his way.

If you're still offended, I suggest the problem lies with you, not with me. The name of the guy in the example, the imaginary guy's country of origin are secondary at best. The point (if you've been paying attention you'll know this by now) is not from where the immigrant comes, but what whether we, the U.S., should be trying to obstruct him. I say the answer is no, we should not. I repeat, seems to me that everyone is better off if we stay out of his way.

And in reply to this point, you managed to focus on the nationality of the guy in the example and to ignore the genuine issue of the immigration policy. I was talking about the policy, clearly and in a straightforward manner. And rather than try to convince me I'm wrong, you pull some rant about how unfair it is for me to make this "some kinda ethnic thing". Here is a clue: I'm not the one making this about ethnicity.

Do a better job of selling your ideas instead of taking the lazy way out and demonizing those who disagree.

I did not demonize anyone. I argued my case that we are better off letting people come here and work. I asked pertinent questions. Should I care what a worker's nation of origin is so long as he does the work? Should I care whether someone is from another country when he spends his money with my business? We are talking about immigration, are we not? Immigration is people from other countries coming here to work and live and play, is it not? So why the frak are you offended that I dared to address the issue? If the issue is immigration, then we ought to be talking about the whys and wherefores of people coming here from other nations. That isn't demonizing anyone. That is addressing the issue. If that offends you, then I suggest you don't have a case to make and have no frakking business telling me that my idea is unworkable because you're obviously not willing to discuss the meat of the issue.

If you want to convince people your ideas practical and workable and all the things you seem to think libertarian ideas are not, then you need to try harder. So far, I have to say, your attempt to persuade me that I'm wrong on immigration is flimsy, weak, insubstantial, tenuous and feeble. Do a better job of selling your ideas rather than taking the lazy way out and piously bitching about imaginary slights.