Author Topic: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee  (Read 4827 times)

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Plane

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2014, 01:44:49 AM »
Even McCain sees the light.


Where do you get this "EVEN"?

No one else has been as up front or as consistent in opposition to torture.

Who was earlier in opposition?

On this topic John McCain has been the light.

Plane

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2014, 01:59:57 AM »
   I feel personally conflicted.

    I would have stood in a long line to punch one of these guys in the nose myself, so I don't feel like I desire any punishment for the people responsible for the actual delivery of the real punch. I would feel hypocritical at that.

    I support decisive and strong actions such as bombings , raids and sniping of the fighters and leaders of Al Queda as they become available to shoot and until they are no longer a threat, but getting the bombs on the targets is not simple it requires knowing a lot about the targets, especially if collateral damage is to be minimized. Shooting in the dark and having little knowledge gathering is the formula for wasting bombs and maximizing collateral damage.

   Then on the other hand , I do indeed want the USA to be a moral leader of historical importance , and I want there to be a reasonable limit on coercion sometime earlier than when I become a suspect in custody myself.

     This is a hard line to draw, especially since I have such small experience in being mistreated or being responsible for inquisition.

       The administration at the time asked lawyers and doctors (MD) to help formulate a policy and they rejected some ideas and accepted others. Was this prudent or not?

 

sirs

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2014, 04:15:43 AM »
As Cu4 helped to highlight, this 40million dollar report is as as hypocritical as it is political.  NO WHERE in that report did the Democrats ever actually interview anyone involved.  This is all made worse by the fact that following 911, nearly everyone, including Feinstein, supported pretty much any measure, short of what AlQeada routinely performs, to stop the next terrorist attack.  An attack that most everyone believed wasn't if, but when.

And how is using EIT's to try and figure out the next terrorist attack, supposedly so much worse than hitting merely suspected terrorists, and any innocent collateral civilians, with a drone attack??
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2014, 09:40:19 AM »
Your logic is, as ever, flawed.
Since there is no difference between stomping on your toes or kicking you in the balls, why not do both?

The CIA interrogators, in their own CIA report were clearly sadistic and deliberately cruel to men rendered helpless. That is morally indefensible, and since people will confess to anything they can invent when tortured, just to make it stop, there was no reason whatever to do it.
 
They should put these sadists on trial.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2014, 09:57:31 AM »
Your logic is, as ever, flawed.
Since there is no difference between stomping on your toes or kicking you in the balls, why not do both?



  Speaking in terms of acts of war, what is the flaw in this logic?

sirs

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2014, 10:23:31 AM »
Since there is no difference between stomping on your toes or kicking you in the balls, why not do both?

And since there is a difference between sleep deprivation vs decapitation, why didn't we do both?  Sorry, the logic is as sound as the report is hypocritical.  Those "helpless" men were no more helpless than Scott Peterson or Charles Manson, as their organization they were fighting for just performed the largest mass murder on U.S. soil, in history.  And as already has been factually documented, did provide actionable intel.  Now you're free to claim "that was made up", but since its actually documented in other CIA reports, that you're apparently citing, I guess I can claim that "you're a moron who will believe anything they say"

So....how again is using EIT's to try and figure out the next terrorist attack, supposedly so much worse than merely hitting suspected terrorists, and any innocent collateral civilians, with a drone attack??
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2014, 07:35:18 PM »
You are obsessed with symmetry. Everything to you needs to be exactly the same or there is no justice.

If the CIA wanted to interrogate you, they would only have to threaten to have off half your hair, and you would crumble like feta cheese.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2014, 07:42:13 PM »
LOL...YOU'RE the one trying to compare what we do, to what they do, as some how symmetrical.  I don't have a problem with causing sleep deprivation.  I have no problem with terrorists being water-boarded.  No one is being killed, maimed, disfigured, mutilated, or ANYTHING even closely resembling what these terrorists perform on a routine basis

So, putting aside the rather ridiculous deflection effort of what the CIA cold do to "break me" (perhaps having to listen to a mere 15minutes of one of your lectures would do it), ....how again is using EIT's to try and figure out the next terrorist attack, supposedly so much worse than merely hitting suspected terrorists, and any innocent collateral civilians, with a drone attack??
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 03:29:40 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2014, 08:28:39 PM »
  The standard is not set by our enemy.

    The standard is probably the best available choice, whatever that is.

     We can't choose what doesn't work.

sirs

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2014, 03:33:34 AM »
     We can't choose what doesn't work.

Precisely.  No amount of "pretty please, will you tell us what's the next top AlQeada target supposed to be?" was going to provide anything actionable
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2014, 11:14:23 AM »
Dianne Feinstein's Travesty

By Rich Lowry - December 12, 2014

The Senate Intelligence Committee spent roughly $50 million on its investigation into the CIA and apparently couldn't find Michael Hayden's phone number.

The committee portrays Gen. Hayden, the former CIA director, as a liar who deceived Congress about the agency's interrogation program, yet the committee couldn't be bothered to interview him.

That's because the committee, led by California Democrat Dianne Feinstein, didn't bother to interview anyone. The committee didn't want to include anything that might significantly complicate its cartoonish depiction of a CIA that misled everyone so it could maintain a secret prison system for the hell of it.

The Feinstein report scores some points. It makes plain that the CIA program wasn't adequately controlled, especially at the beginning, that it went too far, and that the agency became too invested in defending it.

But the thrust of the report is devoted to the proposition that torture, or harsh interrogation, never works. This is important to critics of the CIA program because they are almost never willing to say that torture is wrong and that we should never do it, even if it sometimes works and potentially saves lives. They lack the moral conviction to make their case solely on principle.

Even though its executive summary runs more than 500 pages, the report lacks basic context, specifically an account of the post-September 11 environment in which nearly everyone expected another attack and wanted to do everything possible to avoid it. This is why the likes of the impeccably liberal Jay Rockefeller, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, could say after we captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in 2003 that we should be "very, very tough with him."

The interrogation program was born against this backdrop. No one was saying of KSM, "Let's give him some dates and olives and hope, once he finds out what nice people we are, he spills his guts and gives up Osama bin Laden's location."

The harsh methods that the CIA adopted don't, in isolation, shock the conscience. There's nothing, for instance, about throwing someone up against a flexible wall, grabbing and shaking him, keeping him in a tight space or slapping him that is clearly out of bounds.

It is cumulatively, over an extended period, as with Abu Zubaydah, who was put through the ringer for two weeks, that the methods take on a different complexion. Reasonable people can disagree about whether we went over the line of what we should do to anyone in any circumstance. But in making a totalist case against the CIA program, the Feinstein report implausibly asserts that it had no benefits whatsoever.

It points out, as though it settles something, that terrorists lied when they were subjected to coercive interrogations. Of course, terrorists also lied when they weren't subjected to coercive interrogations. The standard shouldn't be if the CIA program produced 100 percent truthfulness, but whether it produced intelligence that otherwise wouldn't have been available as quickly or at all.

The Feinstein report insists that the harsh interrogation of Abu Zubaydah didn't help lead to the capture of KSM. The Republican counterreport notes, "There is considerable evidence that the information Abu Zubaydah provided identifying KSM as "Mukhtar" and the mastermind of 9/11 was significant to CIA analysts, operators, and FBI interrogators."

The Feinstein report pooh-poohs the notion that the interrogations helped put the CIA onto bin Laden's courier, in part because the agency had information about him prior to its interrogations. But the interrogations highlighted the importance of the information already in the CIA?s possession.

The overall contention of the report is that we would have been just fine and achieved the same results in the war on terror with less information, rather than more. Not only does that defy common sense, it is a bet no one would have been willing to make in 2002.

Nor would anyone have guessed 10 years ago that it would be considered more in keeping with American values to assassinate people from drones rather than capture them and ask them questions under duress.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/12/12/dianne_feinsteins_travesty_124938.html
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2014, 02:58:37 PM »
The CIA is not concerned with American values and never has been.

I am against any sort of drone attacks unless they could clearly prevent an attack on this country, and could be carried out without wiping out innocent people, I am also opposed to torture, because it DOES NOT WORK. The proof is that the CIA have been unable to give even one specific example of how it has saved even one American life.

Still, ceasing to do one out of two immoral acts is an improvement of doing two of them.

The CIA clearly has acted and is continuing to act against specific orders to cease and desist from specific behavior, The government does not want to can the SOB's who do this, because the CIA will blackmail them in some way, shape or form. This crap has been going of for decades.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2014, 03:52:46 PM »
The CIA is not concerned with American values and never has been.

Your opinion on that claim, is duly noted, and found wanting.  Evidence has been provided on actual actionable intel.  But its obvious they can't divulge much, or else give terrorists an upper hand in using that against us.  That's just common sense.  The point being, such tactics HAVE provided our forces vital intel to help prevent more such 911's, all the while no one is killed, maimed, or disfigured in the process.  Yet, somehow you make that comparable/"symmetrical" to the beheadings, burning alive, and dismemberment of body parts, performed by the likes of AlQeada and its off shots, like ISIS.  Frellin amazing

And as Cu4, and others have provided, Dems like Feinstein were perfectly ok with this method of interrogation, following 911, when it wasn't a perception of if we were going to be hit again, but when.  Hypocrisy in the highest order of magnitude.  All of which merely to try and change the subject of political discussion from Obamacare & immigration.  A $40,000,000+ purely political partisan tax payer payed swipe, trying to give the Bush administration one last black eye, before the GOP is handed the keys to the Legislative process, by those same tax payers, Obama has given the middle finger to. 

« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 04:15:59 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2014, 05:20:06 PM »
The CIA makes up crap. They claim that torture helped them find Bin Laden, but they offer zero proof. They already got Bin Laden, they will not have to get him again, and there is zero evidence that their torture led to anything.

Naturally, they just cannot tell the truth and say that "we are vengeful sadists, and Cheney and Rumsfeld promised we could get away with it."

So they go the stupid Secret Squirrel route. Let the dummies believe their nonsense. The CIA has caused this country far more back and disasters than they have even benefited this country.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Hey Peee-Low-Cheeee
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2014, 10:52:13 PM »
The CIA makes up crap. ...... Let the dummies believe their nonsense. The CIA has caused this country far more back and disasters than they have even benefited this country.

You mean like if you like your Doctor and Insurance, you can keep them under Obamacare?  Or that the President doesn't have the constitutional authority to alter/ignore immigration law?  Or that there's not even a smidgen of corruption going on in DC?  Oh wait, that's the White House's crap that dummies are believing.  My bad
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle