Author Topic: Mukasey on Torture  (Read 7000 times)

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Lanya

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Mukasey on Torture
« on: October 19, 2007, 12:00:13 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt8v_GAgOK4

    WHITEHOUSE: Is waterboarding constitutional?

    MUKASEY: I don?t know what is involved in the technique. If waterboarding is torture, torture is not constitutional.

    WHITEHOUSE: "If waterboarding is constitutional" is a massive hedge.

    MUKASEY: No, I said, "If it's torture." I'm sorry. I said, "If it's torture."

    WHITEHOUSE: "If it's torture." That's a massive hedge. I mean, it either is or it isn?t. Do you have an opinion on whether waterboarding, which is the practice of putting somebody in a reclining position, strapping them down, putting cloth over their faces, and pouring water over the cloth to simulate the feeling of drowning. Is that constitutional?

    MUKASEY: If it amounts to torture, it is not constitutional.

    WHITEHOUSE: I'm very disappointed in that answer ? I think it is purely semantic.

    MUKASEY: I?m sorry.
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Michael Tee

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2007, 12:29:57 PM »
This, in the Bush administration, is what passes for progress.  You go from a guy who is a torture fan to someone who just won't take a stand on it one way or the other.  Impressive.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2007, 03:40:48 PM »
The way to determine whether Mukasey thinks waterboarding is a crime should be to waterboard the turkey and THE ask him what is felt lilke

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2007, 05:09:11 PM »
The way to determine whether Mukasey thinks waterboarding is a crime should be to waterboard the turkey and THE ask him what is felt lilke

I bet he won't like it.  Following that you should then dislocate both his shoulders and pull out his tongue, then ask him to compare the 2....if he's able to of course
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2007, 06:08:29 PM »
<<Following that you should then dislocate both his shoulders and pull out his tongue, then ask him to compare the 2....if he's able to of course>>

Wouldn't it be easier just to ask him first if he considers THAT to be torture?  As long as no reports have surfaced from Amerikkka's secret torture chambers about it, he'' probably be able to admit that YES, that IS torture - - just as long as he can prove the Arabs did it.

sirs

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2007, 06:53:28 PM »
<<Following that you should then dislocate both his shoulders and pull out his tongue, then ask him to compare the 2....if he's able to of course>>

Wouldn't it be easier just to ask him first if he considers THAT to be torture?
 

Hey, I'm only going along the logic of Xo.


As long as no reports have surfaced from Amerikkka's secret torture chambers about it, he'' probably be able to admit that YES, that IS torture - - just as long as he can prove the Arabs did it.

Ahhh, the ever famous Tee's lack of evidence/proof is proof positve tact to validating his opinion     ;)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2007, 09:19:46 PM »
<<Ahhh, the ever famous Tee's lack of evidence/proof is proof positve tact to validating his opinion >>

Don't look at me, I was only speculating.  Until he's asked, how would I know what he'd say?

Plane

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2007, 09:52:20 PM »
The way to determine whether Mukasey thinks waterboarding is a crime should be to waterboard the turkey and THE ask him what is felt lilke



That is an interesting concept , should the rule be that techniques shall be allowed if the user is willing to have the tecnique applied to himself , and not if not?

sirs

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2007, 10:02:46 PM »
<<Ahhh, the ever famous Tee's lack of evidence/proof is proof positve tact to validating his opinion >>

Don't look at me, I was only speculating.  Until he's asked, how would I know what he'd say?

I, of course, was referring to your ever frequent use (and support) of secret torture chambers and Gestapo-like tactics, by we American forces.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2007, 01:25:24 AM »
<<I, of course, was referring to your ever frequent use (and support) of secret torture chambers and Gestapo-like tactics, by we American forces.>>

Are you saying that I imagined it all?  That rendition never happens?  That the whole point of the rendition is not torture?  Are there some secret Club Meds that the public doesn't know about, where the captured Arabs are sent to rest up from the stress of imprisonment?

sirs

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2007, 01:56:35 AM »
<<I, of course, was referring to your ever frequent use (and support) of secret torture chambers and Gestapo-like tactics, by we American forces.>>

Are you saying that I imagined it all?  

Oh I'm sure you imagine alot.  No, what I'm saying is you have nada, zilch, zip proof/evidence of American forces running secret torture facilities or using gestapo-like tactics that the Administration, and those who support our war efforts, support.  If you DO have some examples, by all means, NOW'S the time to support your asanine hypothesis.

Here, I'll even start the sentence for you;
Look, you worthless piece of conservative crap, right here in - (insert location here) - Bush and his nazi cronies demonstrated their support in how our american troops did - (insert dismembering/disfiguring/disabling torture here).  Now, stick that fact up your fascist Amerikkan Bush worshipping torture loving ass

Should be a pretty simple assignment, except of course to those with an active imagination


« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 11:47:27 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Lanya

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2007, 03:25:01 AM »
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/15/4538/

 Published on Monday, October 15, 2007 by Truthdig.com
Outsourcing Torture
by Chris Hedges

The Bush administration has called for the respect of human rights in Burma, a pretty safe piece of posturing, but it remains silent as Egypt?s dictator, Gen. Hosni Mubarak , unleashes the largest crackdown on public opposition in over a decade. Our moral indignation over the shooting of monks masks the incestuous and growing alliance we have built in the so-called war on terror with some of the world?s most venal dictatorships.

Mubarak, who has ruled Egypt for 26 years and is grooming his son, Gamal, to succeed him, can torture and ?disappear? dissidents-such as the Egyptian journalist Reda Hilal, who vanished four years ago-without American censure because he does the dirty work for us on those we ?disappear.? The extraordinary-rendition program, which sees the United States kidnap and detain terrorist suspects in secret prisons around the world, fits neatly with the Egyptian regime?s contempt for due process. Those rounded up by American or Egyptian security agents are never granted legal rights. The abductors are often hooded or masked. If the captors are American the suspects are spirited onto a Gulfstream V jet registered to a series of dummy American corporations, such as Bayard Foreign Marketing of Portland, Ore., and whisked to Egypt or perhaps Morocco or Jordan. When these suspects arrive in Cairo they vanish into black holes as swiftly as dissident Egyptians. It is the same dirty and seamless process.

We have nothing to say to Mubarak. He is us. The general intelligence directorate in Lazoughli and in Mulhaq al-Mazra prison in Cairo allegedly holds many of our own detained and ?disappeared.? The more savage the torture techniques of the Mubarak regime the faster the prisoners we smuggle into Egypt from Afghanistan and Iraq are broken down. The screams of Egyptians, Iraqis, Pakistanis and Afghans mingle in these prison cells to condemn us all.

We know little about what goes on in the black holes the CIA has set up in Egypt. But snapshots leak out. Ibn-al Shaykh al-Libi, who was captured by U.S. forces in late 2001, was an al-Qaida camp commander. He was taken to a prison in Cairo where he was repeatedly tortured by Egyptian officials. The Egyptian interrogators told the CIA that he had confirmed a relationship between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida. The tidbit, used by then U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell in his United Nations speech, turned out to be false. Victims usually will say anything to make severe torture stop. Al-Libi was eventually returned to Afghanistan, although he has again disappeared.

Mamduh Habib, an Egyptian-born citizen of Australia, was apprehended in October 2001 in Pakistan, where, his family says, he was touring religious schools. A Pentagon spokesman claimed that Habib spent most of his time in Afghanistan and was ?either supporting hostile forces or on the battlefield fighting illegally against the U.S.?

Habib was released a few days after The Washington Post published an article on his case. He said he was first interrogated and brutalized for three weeks in Islamabad. His interrogators spoke English with American accents. He was then bustled into a jumpsuit, his eyes were covered with opaque goggles and he was flown on a small jet to Egypt. There he was held and interrogated for six months, according to Joseph Margulies, a lawyer affiliated with the MacArthur Justice Center at the University of Chicago Law School, which is representing Habib,.

Habib claims he was beaten frequently with blunt instruments, including an object that he likened to an ?electric prod.? He was told that if he did not confess to belonging to al-Qaida he would be anally raped by specially trained dogs. Habib said he was returned to U.S. custody after his stint in an Egyptian prison and flown to Bagram air base, in Afghanistan, and then to Guantanamo Bay, where he was kept until his release.

Al-Libi and Habib are but two cases. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands more. These accounts of American-sponsored torture in Egyptian prisons are not new. They hardly make news. But the close cooperation between Egyptian and American security officials represents a frightening melding of despotisms, an international cabal of state-sponsored brutality and abuse. It does away with the concept of law and human rights. It mocks international protocols and treaties. It permits the despotic states we support, such as Egypt, to veer away from democratic structures and propagate, with our assistance, a more ruthless tyranny and brutality. It enrages and finally empowers those who oppose us to engage in the same behavior. It is dividing the world into competing spheres of intolerance. In this new world order there is nothing left to appeal to other than the mercy of someone standing over you with an electric prod.

Mubarak has in the past few weeks decided to shut down the last remnants of opposition. He has sent in riot police to arrest dozens of striking labor leaders, rounded up more than a thousand members of the Muslim Brotherhood, the largest opposition group, and tossed seven journalists into prison. The charges against the journalists range from misquoting Egypt?s justice minister to spreading rumors about the health of Mubarak to defaming his designated heir, Gamal. The detainees, as usual, complain of torture and beatings. And persistent rumors of death squads, bolstered by the ?disappearance? of some of the regime?s most outspoken critics, have turned Egypt into a state that has mastered the art of internal and external extraordinary rendition.

The few lonely Egyptian voices and institutions that dared to speak out against the mounting repression have been silenced, including the Association for Human Rights and Legal Aid, which was shut down by the government last month. The government also recently arrested two political activists-Mohammed al-Dereini and Ahmed Mohammed Sobh, both members of Egypt?s tiny Shiite minority-after the men publicized testimonies from prisoners detailing torture in the Egyptian prison system. Egypt?s most prominent dissident, the sociologist Saad Edin Ibrahim, is in exile, too frightened to go home and repeat his own brutal experience in an Egyptian prison.

The Egyptian Organization for Human Rights has confirmed more than 500 cases of police abuse since 1993, including 167 deaths-three of which took place this year-that the group ?strongly suspects were the result of torture and mistreatment.? There are now 80,000 political prisoners held in Egyptian prisons. The annual budget for internal security was $1.5 billion in 2006, more than the entire national budget for health care, and the security police forces comprise 1.4 million members, nearly four times the number of the Egyptian army.

The United States has subsidized Egypt?s armed forces with over $38 billion in aid. Egypt receives about $2 billion annually-$1.3 billion in foreign military financing and about $815 million in economic and support fund assistance-making it the second largest regular recipient of conventional U.S. military and economic aid, after Israel.

We have nothing left to say to the Mubarak regime. The torture practiced in Egypt is the torture we employ for our own ends. The cries that rise up from these fetid cells in Egypt condemn not only the Mubarak dictatorship but the moral rot that has beset the American state.

We are losing the war in Iraq. We are an isolated and reviled nation. We are pitiless to others weaker than ourselves. We have lost sight of our democratic ideals. Thucydides wrote of Athens? expanding empire and how this empire led it to become a tyrant abroad and then a tyrant at home. The tyranny Athens imposed on others, it finally imposed on itself. If we do not confront our hubris and the lies we tell to justify the killing and mask the destruction carried out in our name in Iraq, if we do not grasp the moral corrosiveness of empire and occupation, if we continue to allow force and violence to be our primary form of communication, if we do not remove from power our flag-waving, cross-bearing versions of the Taliban, the despotism we empower abroad will become the despotism we soon experience at home.

Chris Hedges, who graduated from Harvard Divinity School and was for nearly two decades a foreign correspondent for The New York Times, is the author of ?American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.?

?2007 TruthDig.com
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Michael Tee

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2007, 02:21:28 PM »
Maher Arar,  a Canadian, was arrested illegally in the U.S.A. while in transit back to Canada.  With Canadian government OK, he was "rendered" by the U.S. authorities to Syria where he was tortured for 11 months.  Due to the tireless efforts of his wife, he was finally released from Syria.  Because of his wife's efforts to keep this case in the public eye, he was not "disappeared."  For his ordeal, and the role played in it by Canadian intelligence services, Arar was paid $10 million by the Canadian government.

It is through "accidental" mistakes like Arar that we even know about these programs whereby the Americans ship their prisoners to Egypt or Syria for torture.  Most of them aren't fortunate enough to have a dedicated, intelligent and persistent wife like Mrs. Arar, and so disappear forever into the American torture network.  The tortures are far more severe (scalding, burning of the flesh etc.) because the victim is never intended to return to the living world.  They are killed at the end of their tortures if they do not die of them first, and the bodies disposed of in secret.  This is the essence of "disappeared."  It was perfected in Chile and Argentina by the military regimes that the U.S. foisted upon those unfortunate countries in the 1970s.  Now the Americans are playing a much more direct role in it.

sirs

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2007, 02:31:09 PM »
Somehow, Lanya & Tee are still stuck in the policies Clinton got moving

Here, let's try again, since it was an apparent failure the 1st go around:
Look, you worthless piece of conservative crap, right here in - (insert location here) - Bush and his nazi cronies demonstrated their support in how our American troops did - (insert dismembering/disfiguring/disabling torture here).  Now, stick that fact up your fascist Amerikkan Bush worshipping torture loving ass

Ball in Tee's court.  Let's watch that imagination flourish now
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2007, 02:54:51 PM »
I'm still trying to get my head around sirs' thoughts on this subject.  Why bring Clinton into it?  Is the thinking here that it must be OK because Clinton thought of it first?  I don't buy that at all.  Maher Arar was arrested, rendered and tortured on BUSH's watch.  It was wrong for Clinton to think of the policy and wrong of Bush to execute it.  When are the fascist wing-nuts going to stop blaming it all on Clinton?  Is Bush merely Clinton's helpless puppet?  Has he no responsibility for his own actions?  Is "Bill Clinton made me do it" supposed to be some kind of all-encompassing excuse for every failure of the Bush administration?

Does America torture and murder?  YES and YES.  Is it OK if Clinton did it first?  No. 

I consider your original challenge more than adequately answered by both Lanya and myself, sirs.  Blaming it all on Clinton (as if Bush were merely his helpless puppet) is not a rebuttal that any sane or normal person would recognize.  You asked, we answered.  Ball's not in my court any more, sirs.  The match is over.  We won.