Mukasey on Torture

[sirs]

I'm still trying to get my head around sirs' thoughts on this subject. 

It was pretty crystal clear the 1st go around.  You claimed of secret torture chambers run by the U.S.  I said show us.  I even provided you the sentence to make it even easier.  Not sure how that gets confusing. 

Perhaps that imagination of yours is currently stuck in a rut.........OR you actually have validated my point that you have ZIP/NADA/ZILCH evidence to your asanine allegations.  You just think throwing around the term "rendition" is all that's necessary.  It's not.  FACTS are what's necessary.  FACTS/EVIDENCE of AMERICANS running torture chambers.  FACTS/EVIDENCE of AMERICANS running gestapo-like tactics and getting high fives for doing such.  It doesn't get any simpler than that

[Lanya]

Rendition means rendering (like giving, as in, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's...") a prisoner to a FOREIGN COUNTRY to be TORTURED.  That is so we can say, "We don't torture."  Hell no, we pay our good buddies in Egypt, etc.  to have dogs rape people, to have people boiled in oil.    But never let it be said that WE torture.  That would be so unAmerican and wrong, to say that. 

[Michael Tee]

The loony Right loves to nit-pick.  Torture is not torture if you just send the guy (against his will, naturally) to be tortured by someone else, somewhere else.  If anything, the hypocrisy only makes it worse.    But to study the psychopathology of these nuts is really interesting.  I'm always wondering, who do they think they're fooling?  Us?  Those who merely follow the debates without participation?  Themselves?  Or is it possible they know the truth all along and aren't aiming to fool anybody, just to engage in polemical exercises?

[Plane]

Rendition is what will happen to most of the inhabitants of Guntanimo prison camp when it gets closed.

[Michael Tee]

<<Rendition is what will happen to most of the inhabitants of Guntanimo prison camp when it gets closed.>>

I hope what you're thinking of is repatriation, not rendition.  I haven't seen anything indicating rendition is in the cards for them. 

[sirs]

The loony Right loves to nit-pick. 

Doncha love the new loony left definition to the phrase requiring facts ---> nit pick

[Michael Tee]

<<Doncha love the new loony left definition to the phrase requiring facts  ---> nit pick>>

Here's a fact for you:  The U.S.A. ships prisoners to torture chambers around the world to be tortured for information they may possess.  When the torture chamber is in another country, the process is called rendition.

[Plane]

<<Rendition is what will happen to most of the inhabitants of Guntanimo prison camp when it gets closed.>>

I hope what you're thinking of is repatriation, not rendition.  I haven't seen anything indicating rendition is in the cards for them. 

That is a synonym for a Saudi.

[Michael Tee]

I believe rendition requires a third   country, not the country of the victim's nationality, to receive him for torture.

[Plane]

I believe rendition requires a third   country, not the country of the victim's nationality, to receive him for torture.

No, I think that the same term applies when a prisoner is moved from the coustody of one government to another where he remains a prsoner.

When Guntanimo is closed some of the prisoners may indeed be repatraited ,which implys being set free , the others will return to teir home countries prisons in Egypt , Arabia ,Packistan etc..

[sirs]

I believe I asked for examples of Americans torturing, examples of these "secret torture chambers" run by Americans.....you know, what you were ACCUSING the U.S. of.  Don't worry though, I knew you had zip evidence, it was just fun to bring it to the forfront yet again. 

As Plane and the dictionary have demonstrated, rendition is simply moving a prisoner from 1 country to another, to DELIVER.  You're the one subjectively adding "torture" on the end of the actual defintion, and again with ZIP evidence/facts to validate its torture at the behest of America

[Plane]

Lanya's find points up the crux of the issue.

Torture is forbidden and this is unambiguous.


Getting tough on a prisoner is not forbidden unless it amounts to tourture.

So what is tourture?


I like MT's idea of trying out a tecnique of questioning on a questioner beore it is ever applied to a questionee , this might draw a very bright line beyond which our inquisitors would not want to cross.

[Michael Tee]

<<I believe I asked for examples of Americans torturing, examples of these "secret torture chambers" run by Americans.....you know, what you were ACCUSING the U.S. of. >>

What you were asking for is of course a total irrelevancy.  America is just as guilty of crimes committed by its agents at its request as if the crimes were committed by the Americans themselves.  Their twisted, delusional thinking ("We can't be blamed for what our agents do for us") and your apparent adoption of it is as crazy as the guy who hires a hit on his wife and then expects the jury to buy the defence, "It wasn't me, it was the hit-man."  All I can say is, historically, that kind of defence doesn't fly.  A hundred times out of a hundred, the guy who hires the executioner is as guilty as the executioner himself.  You're living in a dream-world (what else is new?) if you think otherwise, but don't worry, I know that irrational and fantastical thinking is the only kind of thought that you are capable of.

<<Don't worry though, I knew you had zip evidence, it was just fun to bring it to the forfront yet again. >>

What's fun for an idiot is hardly proof of anything to serious and normal people.

<<As Plane and the dictionary have demonstrated, rendition is simply moving a prisoner from 1 country to another, to DELIVER. >>

That appears to be correct.

<<You're the one subjectively adding "torture" on the end of the actual defintion, and again with ZIP evidence/facts to validate its torture at the behest of America>>

I should have been more precise.  What I was speaking of was technically "extraordinary rendition" and it probably wouldn't hurt to add the qualifier, "for the purposes of torture," a description which even the Voice of America is adopting.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-10-18-voa71.cfm
 
Again, the nit-pickers can score a few points off how I expressed myself, but the basic truth remains unaltered:  The U.S. tortures. One of the ways in which it tortures is by utilizing the process of extraordinary rendition to send a prisoner to another country to be tortured, so the lying bastards can falsely claim that they themselves do not torture.  Their claim is akin to the claim of innocence by a husband who hired a hit-man to kill his wife:  "I didn't kill my wife."  It's a lie because he killed his wife by causing her to be killed.  The U.S. tortured Maher Arar (and hundreds of others) by causing them to be tortured.

The known locations of rendition include Egypt, Syria, Uzbekistan and eastern Europe.

The article posted by Lanya and the printed material on the Maher Arar affair (including the link in this post) are more than sufficient evidence.  No further proof is needed.  That the torture chambers in those cases were not operated by Americans is irrelevant.  The victims were delivered by Americans for no purpose other than torture.

[sirs]

<<I believe I asked for examples of Americans torturing, examples of these "secret torture chambers" run by Americans.....you know, what you were ACCUSING the U.S. of. >>

What you were asking for is of course a total irrelevancy.

What you refer to as "irrelevency", most rationally minded people would refer to as facts.  So, actually, I was asking for FACTS to support the asanine rhetoric that Americans run secret torture chambers.  You of course provided ZIP examples of such.  Your efforts are indeed, appreciated.

 

[Michael Tee]

<<What you refer to as "irrelevency", most rationally minded people would refer to as facts.  So, actually, I was asking for FACTS to support the asanine rhetoric that Americans run secret torture chambers.  You of course provided ZIP examples of such.  Your efforts are indeed, appreciated.>>

What you received was abundant evidence of Americans torturing prisoners by proxy in secret torture chambers.  The actual detail of who is chosen to apply the tortures ordered up by the Americans on the prisoners whom they supply to the torturers is just that, an irrelevant detail.  The Americans are guilty of torture and the torture is applied in secret prisons.

Crow all you like over your "point" that the Americans don't actually run the torture chambers, that's just a cheap subterfuge that your criminal administration resorts to, which in no way shields them from criminal culpability.  The detail is irrelevant.  It fools nobody.  There is nothing asinine in the statment, abundantly proven in Lana's and my posts, that Americans torture prisoners in secret torture chambers.  The torture is done by agents but the agents report to the Americans who delivered the prisoners.

If you are looking for evidence that the Americans themselves torture prisoners, that too is abundantly evident.  Abu Ghraib and Baghram base, as well as the Guardian's stories of torture on American prison ships.

What are you really trying to prove?  That Americans don't torture their prisoners?  That the Americans are the "good guys?"  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.     In your dreams.