Nasrallah: "If Israel wants open war, so be it"

[Amianthus]

Yes.

But then the thread continued, where you produced evidence that elderly Iranians had unmet social and medical needs, I asked if the U.S. was any different, and you then revealed that the U.S. had social security and medicare. 

No, actually you changed the conditions. You said "I should have asked..."

You didn't think anyone would present any evidence, and when it was presented you had to backpedal and change the conditions. As usual.

[Michael Tee]

<<No, actually you changed the conditions. You said "I should have asked...">>

Well, that's just a rhetorical way of posing a further question.  My first question being easily answered, but not too carefully thought out, I sharpened it so that it was more relevant to the point I was making.

<<You didn't think anyone would present any evidence . . . >>

That's why I was so sloppy with my first question.

<<and when it was presented you had to backpedal and change the conditions. As usual.>>

Nice try, except the "backpedalling" was just pressing forward on my original point with a better question, the conditions weren't changed (since I accepted the original Q & A) but merely followed up with a further question.  Which of course you were unable to answer.  And so to cover up your inability to answer the latter question (in effect, you failed to prove that the neglect and poor medical care was any worse for the elderly in Iran than in America) you resorted to the age-old technique of shoot the messenger. 

The focus is no longer on your inability to satisfy my last question, it becomes instead my ability to ask the right question the first time.

So I will ask you again.  Cut the bullshit.  You're not fooling anyone.  This isn't about my ability to ask the right question the first time.  It's about eldercare in Iran and Amerikkka.  Quit dodging.  Put up or shut up - - where's the evidence that the social and medical neglect of the elderly is worse in Iran than it is in Amerikkka?

[Amianthus]

This isn't about my ability to ask the right question the first time.  It's about eldercare in Iran and Amerikkka.  Quit dodging.  Put up or shut up - - where's the evidence that the social and medical neglect of the elderly is worse in Iran than it is in Amerikkka?

No, actually, it's about you habit of making claims, not presenting evidence when asked, and telling others to prove you wrong.

If you want to prove that elderly in Iran are no worse off than in the US, feel free to dig up the evidence yourself. Until then, I consider your claim - "Sharia law probably provides for care of the elderly, and did so for a thousand years before social security," - to just be another line of bullshit. Prove it or not, it's your job to support your own arguments.

[Michael Tee]

<<"Sharia law probably provides for care of the elderly, and did so for a thousand years before social security," - to just be another line of bullshit. >>

It may or may not be the truth, but that's my opinion, based on my knowledge of legal systems in general, particularly ancient Middle Eastern legal systems, what they do and don't provide for, and it's not my job to do anything other than state it for your consideration.  I believe it is very likely to be true.  It probably is.  If you don't like the opinion, give me your unsupported opinion against it, which I will probably treat with the contempt that it deserves, primarily because it is so unlikely.  Or if you really feel all that strongly about it, go dig up facts (if you can) which disprove it, which I would show more respect for, depending on the source of the facts (the "Future of Freedom Foundation," I can tell you in advance, will not generate a whole lot of respect as a source of facts.)

<<Prove it or not, it's your job to support your own arguments.>>

I gave basically an opinion, not an argument, and moreover, said "probably," meaning how the fuck would I really know, that is my best guess.  That is my opinion and I stand by it.  You haven't been able to disprove it.  First you tried but you failed.  That's fine, but then having failed in your attempts to disprove it, it's a little late in the day to come up with arguments that it's not your job to disprove anything.  If it wasn't your job to disprove it, why did you try at all?

You're like the little kid who takes three swings at the ball, misses every time and then walks off the field with the ball and bat, saying he doesn't have to play this stoopit game anyway.

[Xavier_Onassis]

It seems to me that if Amianthus was actually interested in the truth, he would find the facts to support his position.
If he was more interested in winning some sort of "points" for winning the argument, then he would instead shuffle the burden of proof off on Tee.

I think that the actual comparison of whether elder care is better in the US or in Iran is unknowable and unimportant.
I also think that Nasrallah, the subject of this thread, has very little to do with elder care in Iran, being as he is a Lebanese, and not one who is noted in any way for any position on elder care.

I am not prepared to present either party with the Irrefutable Guardian of the Truth Award. Nor do I actually possess this award, but if I did, well, what I said.

[Michael Tee]

<<I am not prepared to present either party with the Irrefutable Guardian of the Truth Award. Nor do I actually possess this award, but if I did, well, what I said.>>

Well, that's fine because I already have a shelf-full of those awards gathering dust on my mantelpiece, but in this case I didn't claim one, which is why I qualified my remarks with "probably."   They were just an educated guess.  The elderly in both countries re neglected to some extent, and both countries could probably produce the appropriate horror stories of elder abuse and neglect.  My guess would be it's probably worse in Iran because it's a much poorer society, but they might be a society with stronger family ties and greater reverence for their elders than America, so who knows really?

It was just funny to watch Ami making those vain efforts to disprove the thesis, and then after failing at each one, claiming he didn't have to disprove anything and whining that I had made him try.

[Amianthus]

It was just funny to watch Ami making those vain efforts to disprove the thesis, and then after failing at each one, claiming he didn't have to disprove anything and whining that I had made him try.

ROFL.

Wow, I spent a whole maybe 5 minutes during two days on those posts. The reference I found came off the first page of a Google search. It's not a "vain effort" unless I actually try.

[The_Professor]

<<Is relevative important? I mean, if the poor or elderly have needs, they are needs. Yuo keep searching for justificaiton. There are poor and elderly in Muslim countries. Surely, you do not dispute this?>>

There is just this attitude that if it happens in a Muslim country it must be bad.  Ooooooh, there are poor and neglected elderly in Iran!  Shocking.

Well, guess what?  My point is, there are poor and neglected elderly EVERYWHERE.  Yes, even in America, there are unmet needs.  Crazy, huh?

Whoa! You said Shia takes care of the poor in Muslim countires.  I am piont pointing out to you there are still poor there. So, do you then concede the point?

[Michael Tee]

<<Wow, I spent a whole maybe 5 minutes during two days on those posts. The reference I found came off the first page of a Google search. It's not a "vain effort" unless I actually try.>>

Yeah, good point.  Your effort was vain AND half-assed.  Thank you for the correction.

[Michael Tee]

<<Whoa! You said Shia takes care of the poor in Muslim countires. >>

We were actually talking about the elderly, I believe.  As cared for or not under Sharia law.

<< I am piont pointing out to you there are still poor there. So, do you then concede the point?>>

I concede that Sharia law falls short of its objectives in practice, sure.  The real point I was trying to make is that nobody's proven it substantially worse than the U.S. system of Medicare + Social Security.

[The_Professor]

Well, I wouldn't eve ntry to determine whether it is better or worse. I duppose you couldspend some time gahtering stats and such but they would be interpretive as well.

The point is that the Shia might indicate that Muslims are suppsoed to support the poor and they may beven pay their 10%, but the elderly and poor still exist in sizable numbers.

As they do here. A wise man once said that you will always have the poor with you and I concur.

[Michael Tee]

<<I suppose you couldspend some time gahtering stats and such but they would be interpretive as well.>>

Of course they would.  That's why it's an impossible task.