Author Topic: Politicians running away from debate on guns  (Read 1701 times)

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modestyblase

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Politicians running away from debate on guns
« on: April 19, 2007, 03:32:35 PM »
The left-inclined should enjoy this article. From a british perspective, I can understand their point of view; but as an American I still advocate 2nd amendment rights. What I wonder is how they can be so hard on Bush-they are, after all, the world model of the "King's" unlimited sovereignty.
I disagree, as well, that "gun control" debates are what is needed. There is an economist(I want to say Tom Nailer, I can't recall his exact name) that advocates the decriminilization of nonviolent "crimes", specifically by moving them from the criminal code to the administrative code. THAT should be the discussion occurring in homes, forums, the media in general. Guns will be nary an issue when there is no black market to support them.


After the Virginia Tech massacre http://economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9040170

America's tragedy
Apr 19th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Its politicians are still running away from a debate about guns

IN THE aftermath of the massacre at Virginia Tech university on April 16th, as the nation mourned a fresh springtime crop of young lives cut short by a psychopath's bullets, President George Bush and those vying for his job offered their prayers and condolences. They spoke eloquently of their shock and sadness and horror at the tragedy (see article). The Democratic speaker of the House of Representatives called for a “moment of silence”. Only two candidates said anything about guns, and that was to support the right to have them.

Cho Seung-hui does not stand for America's students, any more than Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris did when they slaughtered 13 of their fellow high-school students at Columbine in 1999. Such disturbed people exist in every society. The difference, as everyone knows but no one in authority was saying this week, is that in America such individuals have easy access to weapons of terrible destructive power. Cho killed his victims with two guns, one of them a Glock 9mm semi-automatic pistol, a rapid-fire weapon that is available only to police in virtually every other country, but which can legally be bought over the counter in thousands of gun-shops in America. There are estimated to be some 240m guns in America, considerably more than there are adults, and around a third of them are handguns, easy to conceal and use. Had powerful guns not been available to him, the deranged Cho would have killed fewer people, and perhaps none at all.


 But the tragedies of Virginia Tech—and Columbine, and Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, where five girls were shot at an Amish school last year—are not the full measure of the curse of guns. More bleakly terrible is America's annual harvest of gun deaths that are not mass murders: some 14,000 routine killings committed in 2005 with guns, to which must be added 16,000 suicides by firearm and 650 fatal accidents (2004 figures). Many of these, especially the suicides, would have happened anyway: but guns make them much easier. Since the killing of John Kennedy in 1963, more Americans have died by American gunfire than perished on foreign battlefields in the whole of the 20th century. In 2005 more than 400 children were murdered with guns.

The trigger and the damage done
The news is not uniformly bad: gun crime fell steadily throughout the 1990s and early 2000s. But it is still at dreadful levels, and it rose sharply again in 2005. Police report that in many cities it rose even faster in 2006. William Bratton, the police chief of Los Angeles (and formerly of New York), speaks of a “gathering storm of crime”. Politicians on both sides, he says, have been “captured” by the vocal National Rifle Association (NRA). The silence over Virginia Tech shows he has a point.

The Democrats have been the most disappointing, because until recently they had been the party of gun control. In 1994 President Bill Clinton approved a bill banning assault weapons (covering semi-automatic rifles plus high-capacity magazines for handguns) and the year before that a bill imposing a requirement for background checks. But Democrats believe they paid a high price for their courage: losing the House of Representatives in 1994 shortly after the assault-weapons ban, and then losing the presidency in 2000. Had Al Gore held Arkansas or West Virginia or his own Tennessee, all strongly pro-gun, he would have won the election. These days, with hopes for a victory in 2008 dependent on the South and the mountain West, it is a brave Democrat who will talk about gun control. Some of them dismiss the very idea as “insensitive”.

Mr Bush however, has done active damage. On his watch the assault-weapons ban was allowed to lapse in 2004. New laws make it much harder to trace illegal weapons and require the destruction after 24 hours of information gathered during checks of would-be gun-buyers. The administration has also reopened debate on the second amendment, which enshrines the right to bear arms. Last month an appeals court in Washington, DC, overturned the capital's prohibition on handguns, declaring that it violates the second amendment. The case will probably go to the newly conservative Supreme Court, which might end most state and local efforts at gun control.

Freedom yes, but which one?
No phrase is bandied around more in the gun debate than “freedom of the individual”. When it comes to most dangerous products—be they drugs, cigarettes or fast cars—this newspaper advocates a more liberal approach than the American government does. But when it comes to handguns, automatic weapons and other things specifically designed to kill people, we believe control is necessary, not least because the failure to deal with such violent devices often means that other freedoms must be curtailed. Instead of a debate about guns, America is now having a debate about campus security.

Americans are in fact queasier about guns than the national debate might suggest. Only a third of households now have guns, down from 54% in 1977. In poll after poll a clear majority has supported tightening controls. Very few Americans support a complete ban, even of handguns—there are too many out there already, and many people reasonably feel that they need to be able to protect themselves. But much could still be done without really infringing that right.

The assault-weapons ban should be renewed, with its egregious loopholes removed. No civilian needs an AK-47 for a legitimate purpose, but you can buy one online for $379.99. Guns could be made much safer, with the mandatory fitting of child-proof locks. A system of registration for guns and gun-owners, as exists in all other rich countries, threatens no one but the criminal. Cooling-off periods, a much more open flow of intelligence, tighter rules on the trading of guns and a wider blacklist of those ineligible to buy them would all help.

Many of these things are being done by cities or states, and have worked fairly well. But jurisdictions with tough rules are undermined by neighbours with weak ones. Only an effort at the federal level will work. Michael Bloomberg, the mayor of New York, has put together a coalition of no fewer than 180 mayors to fight for just that. Good luck to him.

_JS

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Re: Politicians running away from debate on guns
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2007, 03:34:58 PM »
Quote
What I wonder is how they can be so hard on Bush-they are, after all, the world model of the "King's" unlimited sovereignty.

Huh?
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modestyblase

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Re: Politicians running away from debate on guns
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2007, 03:38:01 PM »
I was being snarky. The Economist is VERY much a Bush-bashing rag. In fact, in 2004 in their corrections section they apologized for implying the American president was properly elected.

It has nothing to do with the article. Just a bit of a bash to the periodical.  :D

Plane

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Re: Politicians running away from debate on guns
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2007, 03:45:08 PM »
The Democrats have been the most disappointing, because until recently they had been the party of gun control. In 1994 President Bill Clinton approved a bill banning assault weapons (covering semi-automatic rifles plus high-capacity magazines for handguns) and the year before that a bill imposing a requirement for background checks. But Democrats believe they paid a high price for their courage: losing the House of Representatives in 1994 shortly after the assault-weapons ban, and then losing the presidency in 2000. Had Al Gore held Arkansas or West Virginia or his own Tennessee, all strongly pro-gun, he would have won the election. These days, with hopes for a victory in 2008 dependent on the South and the mountain West, it is a brave Democrat who will talk about gun control. Some of them dismiss the very idea as “insensitive”.

Mr Bush however, has done active damage. On his watch the assault-weapons ban was allowed to lapse in 2004. New laws make it much harder to trace illegal weapons and require the destruction after 24 hours of information gathered during checks of would-be gun-buyers. The administration has also reopened debate on the second amendment, which enshrines the right to bear arms. Last month an appeals court in Washington, DC, overturned the capital's prohibition on handguns, declaring that it violates the second amendment. The case will probably go to the newly conservative Supreme Court, which might end most state and local efforts at gun control.




   Giveing the people of America something other than they want is "courage " but being obedient to the people is "damage".

   The English haven't caught on to the "democracy " thing yet .

Amianthus

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Re: Politicians running away from debate on guns
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2007, 03:45:58 PM »
No civilian needs an AK-47 for a legitimate purpose, but you can buy one online for $379.99.

This article is filled with many factual errors. This is one of them; an AK-47 is a firearm capable of "selective fire" - as such, it is illegal to own in the US without a Federal Class III firearms license. Here is a summary of what is required to purchase one:

Quote
All NFA items must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). Private owners wishing to purchase an NFA item must obtain permission from both the ATF and the county sheriff or city or town chief of police, pass an extensive background check to include submitting a photograph and finger prints, fully register the firearm, receive ATF written permission before moving the firearm across state lines, and pay a tax.
Class III NFA firearm

What the author actually means is that you can buy a firearm that looks like an AK-47 online. Which is why the "Assault Weapon Ban" is sometimes derisively called the "Vicious Looking Weapon Ban" - it didn't ban any actual assault weapons, it only banned weapons that look like assault weapons. Real assault weapons were still allowed under the regulations quoted above.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

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Re: Politicians running away from debate on guns
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2007, 03:51:15 PM »
Ah...ok.

I was going to say that the British have never really been the divine right monarchists that many other European nations have been, at least not in the past seven centuries or so.

I think you have to remember the wide disparity of cultures. It is truly remarkable to a Brit that anyone (as long as they have no criminal past, etc) can walk into a gun shop and purchase a handgun or even more powerful weapon. They don't grow up with any knowledge of shooting firearms and hunting is generally a sport of the countryside folk or the upper class. Even they support a system of rather tough classes to allow one to legally own and discharge a shotgun and rifle.

The other aspect is that for a long time the mainstay of weapons for the IRA came from the United States. Even when Libya became more of a supplier, money (and weapons) came from the U.S. It is not something the British have forgotten.

So whether one agrees or disagrees with their arguments, I think it is worthwhile to consider the differences in how they view the problem. Added to that is the fact that our system of federalism is considered rather odd, if not sometimes humorously foolish. Luckily Canada's federalism provides more complexity and more foolishness :)
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

modestyblase

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Re: Politicians running away from debate on guns
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2007, 03:52:17 PM »
Interesting! I didn't know that! I want Class III Firearms License! hehehe.

Amianthus

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Re: Politicians running away from debate on guns
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2007, 03:56:17 PM »
Interesting! I didn't know that! I want Class III Firearms License! hehehe.

Guy who lived next door to me in Minnesota actually manufactured machine guns in his basement as a hobby. We went out a few to times to shoot 'em, good fun.

Because of the scarcity imposed by the various firearms laws, he could sell 'em for around $30k a piece. He made 3 or 4 year and paid most of his bills with the income.

I also had a couple friends in Baltimore that owned selective fire firearms, and there is a firearms range there that will rent you one for an afternoon's shooting experience.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Politicians running away from debate on guns
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2007, 04:38:48 PM »
Interesting! I didn't know that! I want Class III Firearms License! hehehe.

Guy who lived next door to me in Minnesota actually manufactured machine guns in his basement as a hobby. We went out a few to times to shoot 'em, good fun.

Because of the scarcity imposed by the various firearms laws, he could sell 'em for around $30k a piece. He made 3 or 4 year and paid most of his bills with the income.

I also had a couple friends in Baltimore that owned selective fire firearms, and there is a firearms range there that will rent you one for an afternoon's shooting experience.


It is the law that makes them so expensive  , but if there were a real demand for automatic wepons wouldn't they be flowing in along with the Marajuanna?

AK 47s of the real sort are not very expensive where they are availible , but the smuggleing of them into the US as illeagal wepons is not common.

Amianthus

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Re: Politicians running away from debate on guns
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2007, 04:41:06 PM »
It is the law that makes them so expensive  , but if there were a real demand for automatic wepons wouldn't they be flowing in along with the Marajuanna?

I'm sure they are. I was talking about legal purchases here. The original claim was that the Assault Weapon Ban should be reinstated to prevent these sales; I was pointing out that it did not do so.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)