The Democrats Are the Problem

[BT]

I don't think so, but you still haven't answered my question:  which words of yours did I "twist" and how exactly did I "twist" them?

Talking about parties does not equate to talking about candidates.

I never claimed Obama talked down to constituents, though Jesse Jackson might tyake issue with that.

I never claimed Obama was an elite.

Though some of his supporters think that, for example, if you are not a member of the teachers unionm you have no standing to discuss education issues. or if you have never served in the armed services your opinion concerning nation security issues is suspect.

[Cynthia]

There has to be  intelligence, compassion and common sense to go along with that wad of cash .

Bush had his share of money, prestige and a family name, but did he have the the 'other'?

Are you saying Bush does not have compassion, intelligence or common sense?

Because i can provide evidence that he does.

I'll never forget reading about Bush's "decision" to give a "go ahead" to execute a death row prisoner in a Texas jail. This woman had a chance to live if Bush would have given the ok...( I have forgotten her name) She was a born again Christian and had proven that she was capable of helping others, having completely repented; proven  far and above many prisoners in her situation that she was worthy to live...That was my first shocking assessment of Bush's lack of compassion. His call to go into Iraq shows his lack of intelligence, imo, of course. (and compassion)

You might show that he is a brilliant scholar, or that he has an IQ worthy of a leader, but no amount of "proof" you find, BT, will show that he walks that test talk.

I believe that Obama is both intelligent in such matters and compassionate.


Obama voted against the Iraq war.
Smart and Compassionate.

Obama listens to teachers
Compassionate and Smart.

to name a few.

[BT]

I'll never forget reading about Bush's "decision" to give a "go ahead" to execute a death row prisoner in a Texas jail.

That wasn't Bush's decision to make. Repeating stories without the facts to back them is neither smart nor compassionate. But it is not unexpected.

Obama listens to teachers
Compassionate and Smart.

One persons smart and compassionate is another persons pandering.

BTW what is so smart about claiming a program is unfunded when it clearly is?

[Michael Tee]

The woman was Karla Faye Tucker, and the decision (to grant or withhold clemency) was certainly Bush's to make, as Governor of the State of Texas.  Bush wasn't so much condemned for his decision (the murders were committed with great brutality) as for his mocking of the condemned woman's pleas to him for her life.

<<In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Faye Tucker. "Did you meet with any of them?" I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. "No, I didn't meet with any of them," he snaps, as though I've just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn't meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, "What would you say to Governor Bush?" "What was her answer?" I wonder. "Please," Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "don't kill me." I must look shocked — ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel — because he immediately stops smirking.>>

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/tucker/1.html

I have to say that Karla Faye Tucker definitely deserved the death penalty, in fact it's too bad the bitch couldn't have been killed the same way she killed her victim, 46 hits with a pick-axe wielded by members of the family, but Bush apparently lost a lot of points for mimicking her plea for mercy.  Especially among evangelicals, because Karla apparently "found Jesus" while awaiting her execution.

This is just to clear up the record.  I have a lot of reasons to despise George W. Bush, but personally I have to agree with Bush's decision here.  When I read the details of the crime just now, I'm not even horrified that Bush mocked the plea for mercy.   Karla claimed she got a triple orgasm from the killing.  If she was lucky, maybe she got one last good one from the lethal injection.

[Michael Tee]

In answer to my question, "Which words of yours did I "twist" and how exactly did I "twist" them?" BT writes the following:

<<Talking about parties does not equate to talking about candidates.>>

First of all, you were talking about the American people not liking to be talked down to, AND the American people being "trained" to dislike the "rich and elite."

I did not twist those words of yours; on the contrary, I took them at face value and applied them to Obama's chances in the election.

<<I never claimed Obama talked down to constituents, though Jesse Jackson might tyake issue with that.>>

Leaving Jesse Jackson aside simply because he has nothing to do with the point of this discussion, how exactly did I "twist" your words to imply that you had accused Obama of talking down?  Where exactly did I do that?

<<I never claimed Obama was an elite.>>

No, what you said exactly was:  << they [the American people] have been trained to dislike the rich and elite.>>  Well, this wasn't a totally random remark, like "the American people have been trained to dislike anal sex" or "the American people have been trained to dislike the wearing of socks with sandals."  Your remark was made in the context of an election, an election in which Obama has been accused many times of being an "elitist<' and unless your remarks were plainly made with no relevant intention, along the lines of the sample "anal sex" or "socks & sandals" then they must have been made with reference to the election which is the subject of this thread.  I read your line "trained to dislike the rich and elite" as if you were referring to Obama, and not voicing abstract likes and dislikes of the American people totally unrelated to the election.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

<<Though some of his supporters think that, for example, if you are not a member of the teachers unionm you have no standing to discuss education issues . . . >>

Looked more to me like a simple and probably true statement that teachers would know a lot more about the workings of the educational system than people who did not work in education.

<< . . . or if you have never served in the armed services your opinion concerning nation security issues is suspect.>>

Oh, I've heard that before.  The old "trust the military" argument.  Usually advanced, at least here in this NG, not by the supporters of Obama but by the militarists and war-mongers.  The crypto-Nazis.

[BT]

was certainly Bush's to make, as Governor of the State of Texas.

The Governor of Texas has little to no pardon powers as it belongs to a board . It was removed from gubernatorial powers in Texas because of abuse in the 40's with a pardons for cash scandal.

Your assumption is ill founded.

[Amianthus]

The woman was Karla Faye Tucker, and the decision (to grant or withhold clemency) was certainly Bush's to make, as Governor of the State of Texas.

The power to grant clemency was taken away from the governor of Texas before Bush came into office. That power rests in a "Board of Pardons and Paroles."

You've been told this already, several times.

[Michael Tee]

Bush refused a 30-day stay of execution, which he DID have the power to grant.  And it was in connection with his refusal of the stay that the mockery occurred.

The point here isn't Bush's power to grant or withhold clemency, it's primarily his lack of empathy, as evidenced by his mocking of the pleas of a condemned woman.  The 30-day stay in a life-or-death situation was her last hope - - it gave an extra window of opportunity to her legal team to try to figure out another way to block the execution.  This Bush DID have the power to grant, and his refusal effectively sealed the woman's fate for good.  The rest is pure nit-picking about what powers a Texas governor has or does not have.

[BT]

Cindy's point was he did not intervene in a born again christians death sentence. The best he could do was issue a 30 day reprieve. Lot of good that would do.

http://texaspolitics.laits.utexas.edu/html/exec/0700.html

[Michael Tee]

<<The best he could do was issue a 30 day reprieve. Lot of good that would do. >>

LOL.  Yeah.  Like YOU wouldn't bust your ass to get one if it was you sitting there on Death Row.  Like no one in recorded history ever got a fresh appeal or a new trial during a 30-day extension

[BT]

A Series of Appeals Rejected

Karla Faye Tucker's appeal to halt her execution was rejected by the Texas Criminal Court of Appeals on January 28, 1998, less than a week before her scheduled execution. Tucker's lawyers had argued Texas's procedure for commuting death sentences, claiming that the law provides no guidelines for parole board members in considering clemency for death row inmates. The following week, on February 2, 1998 (the eve of Tucker's scheduled execution), the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles, which could have recommend a pardon for Tucker to Gov. George Bush, rejected her request to have her death sentence changed to life in prison.

On February 3, Tucker's last chance to avoid the death penalty lied with the U.S. Supreme Court, which considered her petition for a stay of the execution. But the Supreme Court denied the request, clearing the way for Tucker's execution later that day.

[Amianthus]

LOL.  Yeah.  Like YOU wouldn't bust your ass to get one if it was you sitting there on Death Row.  Like no one in recorded history ever got a fresh appeal or a new trial during a 30-day extension

Her request for clemency was already turned down by the board. Her appeals had been exhausted. All the 30 day extension would have done was set a new day for her execution.

[Michael Tee]

My point is that in 30 days anything can happen if the person is still alive and nothing can happen if the person has already been executed.  New evidence can surface of prosecutorial abuse, or abuse of authority by the Board of Paroles and Pardons.  New arguments can be found to persuade the Texas Board or a judge.  New people can be brought on board to lobby for her, turn around some key Board members, call for a re-hearing.

Remote chances, admittedly, but the last chance for the condemned.  Long shots pay off at the track, who can say they never do in the judicial system?  Who in their right mind wouldn't leap at it?  Don't tell me that BT or Ami or anyone else if in Karla Faye's position wouldn't have fought like hell for those 30 days.  It was the only chance she had.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The accusation that Juniorbush was a callous asshole stems from his mocking Karla Faye's voice on the air.

This woman was not a threat to anyone especially because they could have commuted her sentence to a life without parole.

Does anyone actually believe that executing her has caused any prospective murderers to refrain from murder?
=======
The death sentence is not a valid deterrent as it it carried out in the US. Perhaps if we did it the way the Saudis do, that would be a useful deterrent: whack their heads off on TV within weeks of the crime.

But that is just if we want people to think we are a barbaric as the Saudis.

[BT]

The charge was that GW Bush could have commuted her sentence. Her appeals had been exhausted all the way to the supreme court. And under the Texas constitution he did not have the power to commute.

The charge was blatantly false.

Debating the efficacy of a death sentence is one thing. Falsely representing facts is another.

We are dealing with the latter, once again.

What is even stranger is that folks like Chuck Colson who find Jesus behind bars is still vilified, yet cold blooded murderers like Karla Faye Tucker who are conveniently born again are nominated for sainthood.

Go figure.