Songbird - a devastating account of McCain's real-life incarceration . . .

[Xavier_Onassis]

All soldiers are heroes, or is it just American soldiers that are always all heroes?

I find this a confusing point of view.

Was Jeb Stuart a hero, because he was defending the Confederacy, or a monster because he was defending slavery?

[Michael Tee]

<<Was Jeb Stuart a hero, because he was defending the Confederacy, or a monster because he was defending slavery?>>

Depends, not so much what you thought about slavery, but on how strongly you felt about it.

[Xavier_Onassis]

So you think that slavery was a bad idea, but that Jeb Stuart was bravely defending is homeland, then he is a hero.

But of you think slavery was a neat idea, and Jeb was defending his homeland as well as slavery, then he is a monster.

Interesting.

Could it be that young Adolf deserved his Iron Cross?

[Michael Tee]

<<So you think that slavery was a bad idea, but that Jeb Stuart was bravely defending is homeland, then he is a hero.>>

If you're MILDLY opposed to slavery - - like, it's a shame but it's not the worst fucking thing on the planet, everybody did it, they all had a roof over their head and lotsa food and singing and dancing - - yeah, with that kind of take on slavery, Jeb Stuart could be a hero.

Same with these people who don't think the Holocaust was so terrible, sure it shouldn't have happened but neither should Hiroshima, we're all bad guys anyway, so they killed millions of Jews but who really gives a shit anyway? - - well, to those guys, an S.S. trooper could be a hero.

But if you think, slavery is a fucking abomination and every decent caring human being knows that in his guts, then Jeb Stuart is a criminal.  Same kinda thing with the Holocaust and the S.S. guy.

<<But of you think slavery was a neat idea, and Jeb was defending his homeland as well as slavery, then he is a monster.>>

That last one doesn't make sense - - if slavery's great and Jeb's defending THAT and his home, he'd be a good guy.

Interesting.

Could it be that young Adolf deserved his Iron Cross?

[BT]

Funny thing about heroism.

Right now many in here think Obama to be a fine caring guy. A guy who rose from nothing to be on the brink of being elected to the most powerful position in the land.

And if he is elected, I can pretty much guarantee you hat during the next 48 months an event will happen and a decison will be made , that could easily label him as a war criminal in the same eyes of those who tout his virtues today.

You have people and you have events. And sometimes those events overtake people.

Did JEB Stuart ride into battle, putting his life at risk in defense of his troops. Did he pull an injured troop  from the line of fire, again at great risk to himself, did he lead a squad of men into the bush, knowing they were decoys and might not survive?

Acts can be heroic even if you don't agree with the underlying causes that lead to that act.

Heroism is not contingent on ideology.

[BSB]

BT, has it.

A German soldier, who charged an American machine gun, took it, turned it on another American position, then took that one, went down the line taking a half a dozen positions, saving 20 German soldiers lives in the process, could get put in a concentration camp and be a sadistic thug. One day a hero, the next day a parasite.   

[Xavier_Onassis]

Heroism is not contingent on ideology.

==============================
So, then, young Adolf DID deserve his Iron Cross!


How about saying that anyone can act in ways that are both courageous and altruistic, but the cause for which one commits then define whether he (or she) is a hero or not?

I suppose we would have to see inside young Adolf's mind to determine whether his courageous service as a messenger was altruistic because he was thinking of saving the lives of his dear comrades, or less so, because he was defending Kaiser Wilhelm, who was a much nastier monarch than, say, King George.

Is a hero defined only after he dies, and is a consideration of lifetime service, like the Nobel Prize for Literature, or is one single act or set of acts adequate, like, say, being shot down on a bombing mission after offing both innocent civilians and military adversaries, then being tortured?

In Paraguay, Mariscal Lopez used to be vilified for picking a fight with three other countries (Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil) and followed by a five year war that left only 22,000 men in the entire country, out of a prewar population of a million "I die with my country", he said.

Now he's a national hero. Although it is a nice touch that the place of honor in the Panteon de los Heroes is the unknown soldado paraguayo.

[Amianthus]

Or, to remove Hitler from the equation, we can look at Che Guevara. From his Wiki article:

Forty years after his execution, Che's life and deeds still remain a contentious issue.

Some view Che Guevara as a hero; for example, Nelson Mandela referred to him as "an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom" while Jean-Paul Sartre described him as "not only an intellectual but also the most complete human being of our age." Guevara remains a beloved national hero to many in Cuba, where his image adorns the 3 $ Cuban Peso and school children begin each morning by pledging "We will be like Che." In his native homeland of Argentina, where high schools bear his name, numerous Che museums dot the country, which in 2008 unveiled a 12 foot bronze statue of him in his birth city of Rosario. Additionally, Guevara has been sanctified by some Bolivian campesinos as "Saint Ernesto", to whom they pray for assistance.

Conversely, others view him as a spokesman for a failed ideology and as a ruthless executioner. Johann Hari, for example, writes that "Che Guevara is not a free-floating icon of rebellion. He was an actual person who supported an actual system of tyranny." Detractors have also theorized that in much of Latin America, Che-inspired revolutions had the practical result of reinforcing brutal militarism for many years. He also remains a hated figure amongst many in the Cuban exile community, who view him with animosity as "the butcher of La Cabana."

Moreover, Guevara has ironically been subsumed by the capitalist consumer culture he despised. The primary variable of this phenomenon has been a monochrome graphic of his face, which has become one of the World's most universally merchandized images, found on an endless array of items including: t-shirts, hats, posters, tattoos, and even bikinis. Yet, Guevara also remains an iconic figure both in specifically political contexts and as a wide-ranging popular icon of youthful rebellion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara

[Xavier_Onassis]

I fail to see why to "remove Hitler from the equation". I realize being an Austrian homeboy, you'd prefer to pick on el Che, but reality is reality. Whatever Che did that was wrong was nothing compared with Herr Adolf.

If you like or dislike Che, there is certainly a nice amount of irony in his becoming an icon. Hitler's face is pretty recognizable too, but you don't see him on the teeshirts and bandannas of the cool youth of today, so you?

Of course, I don,t think Adolf ever learned to drive, let alone ride a motorcycle around the continent curing lepers.

[Michael Tee]

BT sez "Heroism doesn't depend on ideology."  I think he identified the issue succinctly enough.

The problem for me lies in the distinction between bravery and heroism.  Hitler for sure was brave enough to win the Iron Cross (for which it appears he was nominated by a Jewish officer, in one of history's little ironies, no pun intended.)

The reason I don't like to call the man a hero is, obviously, because I don't want to put him on the same level of other heroes who, IMHO, because of the cause to which their heroism was wedded, such as, for example, Winston Churchill or Rosa Parks, are worthy of respect and admiration.

I would say that bravery in itself is just a personal quality like height, corpulence, hair colour; in real life, bravery is a public virtue at times, a threat to one's own existence at others; stand up to the mob and you're a hero on the six o'clock news but maybe what it really gets you is a pair of cement overshoes and a permanent resting place on the bottom of the East River.  A smarter guy will let the mob be the mob, marry a well-put-together bit-part actress and at least pass a few genes into the next generation.  From a Darwinian perspective, bravery today ain't what it was in Neolithic times, a passport to babes, bread and the good life with many, many descendants, all well-armed with sturdy clubs and ready at any time to do battle for the clan and its progeny.

I'm not going to the dictionary on this one.  For me a hero is someone I can look up to and admire, can thank God that they existed and hope that I could be like.  On November 11 Canada will be celebrating Remembrance Day, when we gather formally across the country to pay our respects to our veterans both living and dead.  It's a day that means a lot to me.  I pause, we all stop whatever we're doing at 11:00 AM and pay a one-minute moment of silent tribute to our heroes. 

But Adolf Hitler a hero?  Not to me.  Not in a million years.  Not with a hundred Iron Crosses.  Physically brave?  Sure but so what?  I'd blast him out of existence with no more thought than I'd give to a cockroach if given the opportunity.  Who gives a shit for his bravery if it's exercised in the wrong cause?  We had millions of men who were brave enough to stand up to them and mow them down like grass, raze every home in their country and kill them by the millions.  Bravery itself was never in short supply on either side of the line.  But heroes?  That's our side.  Heroes are the good guys, not the bad guys.

[Amianthus]

I fail to see why to "remove Hitler from the equation".

Because there is pretty much nobody that would fail to see that Hitler was evil, and therefore people will have a hard time believing that German soldiers during WWII could be considered heroes.

However, there is some contention over whether Che was evil, so it's easier to see that soldiers following him could be considered heroes, regardless whether you agreed with Che or not.

[Cynthia]

Acts can be heroic even if you don't agree with the underlying causes that lead to that act.

Heroism is not contingent on ideology.


Precisely!

[Plane]

Acts can be heroic even if you don't agree with the underlying causes that lead to that act.

Heroism is not contingent on ideology.


Precisely!

What is the opposite of this idea?


Resolved : only our own people can be heros.

[Cynthia]

Acts can be heroic even if you don't agree with the underlying causes that lead to that act.

Heroism is not contingent on ideology.


Precisely!

What is the opposite of this idea?


Resolved : only our own people can be heros.

I am not interested in the "opposite" of the idea right now, Plane. This is an historic day! Time to focus on the positive as much as possible.

[Plane]

If you like or dislike Che, there is certainly a nice amount of irony in his becoming an icon. Hitler's face is pretty recognizable too, but you don't see him on the teeshirts and bandannas of the cool youth of today, so you?

Well ....  yes you do , but that is the other cool group , they don't mix well.