Songbird - a devastating account of McCain's real-life incarceration . . .

[Plane]

Acts can be heroic even if you don't agree with the underlying causes that lead to that act.

Heroism is not contingent on ideology.


Precisely!

What is the opposite of this idea?


Resolved : only our own people can be heros.

I am not interested in the "opposite" of the idea right now, Plane. This is an historic day! Time to focus on the positive as much as possible.

Well then let us rejoice that all four presidential canadates can be called heroic, but each one in a completely diffrent way.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Well ....  yes you do , but that is the other cool group , they don't mix well.

=========================================================

Nazis have not been a cool group since 1944 at the latest.
Genocide and total war are uncool activities.

[Cynthia]

Acts can be heroic even if you don't agree with the underlying causes that lead to that act.

Heroism is not contingent on ideology.


Precisely!

What is the opposite of this idea?


Resolved : only our own people can be heros.

I am not interested in the "opposite" of the idea right now, Plane. This is an historic day! Time to focus on the positive as much as possible.

Well then let us rejoice that all four presidential canadates can be called heroic, but each one in a completely diffrent way.

Hey,  why don't you go to the opposite side and share what you think. You brought it up. I am just not in the mood today to go there. However, I am all ears. Pontificate on, Plane. BTW, are you a hero in someone's eyes? Why?

[Plane]

Well ....  yes you do , but that is the other cool group , they don't mix well.

=========================================================

Nazis have not been a cool group since 1944 at the latest.
Genocide and total war are uncool activities.

It really depends on who you ask, to me ,Hitler and Che are both uncool , Hitler would still be much more marketable if he had died earlyer and accomplished less of his aims , Che got lucky and got killed before he had caused as much enslavement as Herr Hitler.

Imagine the Martyred Hitler killed somewhere as he rallied his people maybe ten years earlyer than his demise actually was, he would be on shirts because we would not know how bad he would have got.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Murdering and flying planes into buildings does not count as fighting for a nation under such circumstances. ..THUS they are murdering others based on their own selfish "cause".

====================================================
So Hitler's troops COULD be heroic, because they had a flag and a country, but the Al Qaeda terrorists, who also intentionally gave their all for a cause they considered greater than themselves...they were not heroic.

Mullah Omar of Afghanistan seemed to agree with them, and gave at least some of them refuge. They were, after all, Arabian patriots who felt they were defending Islam from those who had corrupted their leaders, the Saudi Royals.

I find this to be a rather odd view. Nazis can be heroes, but Al Qaeda cannot. Both were rather opposed to the US and iuts troops, after all.

What, pray tell, is the distinction that separates the Nazis from the Al Qaeda terrorists?

It would seem to be that all are heroes or none of them. I do nt see the distinction.
Could it be a difference of pigmentation?  
Religious heritage?

[Plane]

Acts can be heroic even if you don't agree with the underlying causes that lead to that act.

Heroism is not contingent on ideology.


Precisely!

What is the opposite of this idea?


Resolved : only our own people can be heros.

I am not interested in the "opposite" of the idea right now, Plane. This is an historic day! Time to focus on the positive as much as possible.

Well then let us rejoice that all four presidential canadates can be called heroic, but each one in a completely diffrent way.

Hey,  why don't you go to the opposite side and share what you think. You brought it up. I am just not in the mood today to go there. However, I am all ears. Pontificate on, Plane. BTW, are you a hero in someone's eyes? Why?

I am a hero to a four year old that I sometimes read to.

I recall very fondly someone who read to four year old me.

She picked up some strange politics and doesn't even live in the US anymore , but the admiration I had for her then has not faded.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Che got lucky and got killed before he had caused as much enslavement as Herr Hitler.


==================================================================
Hitler was all for enslavement of pesky and inferior minority groups.

Che Guevara may not be cool to you, but his image is marketed as a cool one and is everywhere.

It would be difficult to find a Hitler keychain, teeshirt or poster anywhere. In Germany, they would be illegal.

Che Guevara had no plans to enslave anyone, and never tried. Cuba is poorly run, but the people are not slaves. The biggest problem in Cuba these days is that there are few willing to be farmers, and in an intensely fertile country, much of the food is imported, and from the US, too.

If there were slavery in Cuba, there would be peasants toiling in those fields. But no, the peasants have moved to the cities, and the fields are full of weeds.

The principal problem in Cuba is that the children grow up hearing that they should want to be like Fidel and el Che, and that is what they do: Just like Fidel, they leave the farm and come to the cities. El Che was always a city dweller, a middle-class urbanite for nine generations.



When it comes to Cuba, you are utterly clueless.

[Plane]

Che got lucky and got killed before he had caused as much enslavement as Herr Hitler.


==================================================================
Hitler was all for enslavement of pesky and inferior minority groups.

Che Guevara may not be cool to you, but his image is marketed as a cool one and is everywhere.

It would be difficult to find a Hitler keychain, teeshirt or poster anywhere. In Germany, they would be illegal.

Che Guevara had no plans to enslave anyone, and never tried. Cuba is poorly run, but the people are not slaves. The biggest problem in Cuba these days is that there are few willing to be farmers, and in an intensely fertile country, much of the food is imported, and from the US, too.

If there were slavery in Cuba, there would be peasants toiling in those fields. But no, the peasants have moved to the cities, and the fields are full of weeds.

The principal problem in Cuba is that the children grow up hearing that they should want to be like Fidel and el Che, and that is what they do: Just like Fidel, they leave the farm and come to the cities. El Che was always a city dweller, a middle-class urbanite for nine generations.



When it comes to Cuba, you are utterly clueless.

Market forces are packing every city in the world , and the US producing cheap food is one of the causes, Cuba still responds to market forces because thay cannot repeal the laws of the market.

Hitler's Germany was very comfortable for the proper Germans lots of people became refugees because they were not the right sort.

Cuba has maintained that caricteristic a lot longer than Germany did.

Now of course Che did not become responsible for nearly as many killings as Hitler , he was proply only responsible for a few thousand killers he might have recruited and led, but given more time , would he have turned away a large number of Killers if he had found as many willing as Hitler did?

I have a shirt that is kind of a Joke , it looks like a Che shirt from a distance and like a Geico Caveman when you get closer , I work on an AFB so I don't wear that shirt to work.

[Cynthia]

Acts can be heroic even if you don't agree with the underlying causes that lead to that act.

Heroism is not contingent on ideology.


Precisely!

What is the opposite of this idea?


Resolved : only our own people can be heros.

I am not interested in the "opposite" of the idea right now, Plane. This is an historic day! Time to focus on the positive as much as possible.

Well then let us rejoice that all four presidential canadates can be called heroic, but each one in a completely diffrent way.

Hey,  why don't you go to the opposite side and share what you think. You brought it up. I am just not in the mood today to go there. However, I am all ears. Pontificate on, Plane. BTW, are you a hero in someone's eyes? Why?

I am a hero to a four year old that I sometimes read to.
I
I recall very fondly someone who read to four year old me.

She picked up some strange politics and doesn't even live in the US anymore , but the admiration I had for her then has not faded.

I am a hero to my little niece who is 5. I spent time  such quality over the weekend with her and her new born baby brother--my new nephew. So, I know that definition of hero, for certain, Plane.... Good for you. Keep reading!

[Michael Tee]

<<I find this to be a rather odd view. Nazis can be heroes, but Al Qaeda cannot. Both were rather opposed to the US and iuts troops, after all.

<<What, pray tell, is the distinction that separates the Nazis from the Al Qaeda terrorists?

<<It would seem to be that all are heroes or none of them. I do nt see the distinction.
<<Could it be a difference of pigmentation? 
<<Religious heritage?>>

==================================================

This goes back to what I said before, it all comes down to how strongly you feel about the "hero's" actions.  If you think the guy was merely "wrong," he could still be a hero.  If you really, really HATE the guy, he can't be a hero.

A lot of people don't really give a shit about the Holocaust.  They will tell you Hitler was bad, but they think it was an everyday kind of bad - -  he's bad, you're bad, we're all bad.  A kind of "He gases Jews, we bomb Dresden," so really, how bad can the guy really be?  Certainly, not bad enough that he can never be a hero.

OTOH, bin Laden HATES AMERICA.  This is the worst fucking crime anyone can commit (at least in the eyes of a right-wing moron.)  The guy has CROSSED A LINE.  There is no fucking way that this guy will ever be a hero.  He killed thousands of Americans.  And of course, gassing millions of Jews and hundreds of thousands of Roma pales into insignificance beside the monstrosity of bin Laden's crime.  Killed 'em LIVE  on morning network TV, to add insult to injury.  Betcher ass, this guy (unlike Hitler or his stormtroopers) will never EVER be a hero, man this is the lowest form of life you will ever see on this planet.

[Cynthia]

He killed thousands of Americans.

Mtee, Bin Laden was responsible for killing a world of people...not just Americans.

http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/1year/numbers.htm

[Xavier_Onassis]

Mtee, Bin Laden was responsible for killing a world of people...not just Americans.


===============================
He could have slaughtered acres of Hindus, bushels of Bahi'as, tons of Tamil Tigers, and he could still be a hero. It was killing New Yorkers that ruined his chances of sponsoring heroism.

[Cynthia]

Mtee, Bin Laden was responsible for killing a world of people...not just Americans.


===============================
He could have slaughtered acres of Hindus, bushels of Bahi'as, tons of Tamil Tigers, and he could still be a hero. It was killing New Yorkers that ruined his chances of sponsoring heroism.

That's a silly argument, X0.
Besides.....
 To whom would he be a hero for killing Tamil Tigers?

A butcher is not a hero. A murderer is not a hero. IMO

[Michael Tee]

<<Mtee, Bin Laden was responsible for killing a world of people...not just Americans.>>

Yeah but when he was killing Russians and Afghan Communists, the Americans were paying him to do it. 
And as XO points out, no one in America gives a shit about who else he killed, as long as they weren't American civilians.  Hitler and his S.S. killed tens of millions - - French, Poles, Dutch, Italians, Danish, Norwegian, Bulgarian, Jewish, Roma, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Greeks, Albanians, Macedonians, Serbs, Hungarians, just you name it - - but they left American civilians alone and had the further good grace to commit all their killings outside the U.S.A., so they sure as hell CAN be heroes, and basically because no one gives a shit about the people they killed.

Bin Laden, though, was different - - he attacked buildings and planes in the U.S. and killed U.S. civilians.  Which is why, to an American, he can never, never, ever be a hero.  If he really wanted to be a hero in the U.S., he should have joined Hitler's S.S. - - only he was decades too late.

[Xavier_Onassis]

 To whom would he be a hero for killing Tamil Tigers?

==================
To the Buddhist Sri Lankans, of course.

Tamil Tigers, by the way, allow me to clarify, are NOT a sports team like the Cinncinati Bengals or the Detroit Tigers, nor are they wild large felines. They are a mostly Hindu Tamil ethnic minority that occupy southern India and parts of Sri Lanka. They want a separate nation of their own in Sri Lanka, formerly known as Ceylon.

Just so you know...