Author Topic: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues  (Read 20610 times)

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Plane

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2007, 12:02:40 AM »
To consider the war in Iraq to be "optional" one must presume that there were other options .


To leave the status quo was not an option availible , the embargo was already leaking a lot and Saddam was getting more sympathy than handicap from it. The Status quo we had was rickety and overdue for change.

To let Saddam loose from the strictures we had on him was a viable option , but it would have without any reasonable doubt have resulted in the extinction of the Kurds , Marsh Arabs and decimation of the Shia. Another war with Iran wouldn't be unlikely either.

I think that we have chosen the most humane and harmless option by going to war in Iraq , if you don't agree then you need to defend your favoriate option from its supposed faults , with the advantage of the perfection that only supposition could achieve.

BT

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2007, 12:04:28 AM »
I agree with Domer re:impeachment. Even without the pledge, you don't have a a case and politically it would be suicide.

yellow_crane

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2007, 12:15:11 AM »
Here I sit, targeted and "vilified" by both sides, when all I do is adopt the diction and syntax of any (wannabe) American politician, and struggle manfully to get a handle on this problem, intelligently and in good faith. If that "tack" doesn't work, I suggest we scrap the playbook itself and ready ourselves for a tumultuous time indeed.


The Neocons have already scrapped the playbook.

That is the point.

We have the Neocon war in Iraq, and the war with the Neocons at home.

At present, we have almost all Democrats and waking Republicans waging that war at home.

As has been so poignantly pointed out, it is indeed "a tumultuous time indeed."

Offering what "should be done" pales to the bigger question--what to do with the intransigent Neocons?

Please offer your feelings about watching the speech.   Were you chilled in the least?

Has the Neocon back been broken, or is Bush suddenly even goofier that we imagined?

Plane

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2007, 12:22:37 AM »
Please offer your feelings about watching the speech.   Were you chilled in the least?

Has the Neocon back been broken, or is Bush suddenly even goofier that we imagined?


I had to work so I didn't see.


But if the President is about to quit being moderate and middlefinding it will be good news to me .

President Bush's worst fault has been his constant atempts to compromise and find middle ways , this worked beter in Texas when he was govenor , it has brought him nothing but greif as President .

Michael Tee

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2007, 12:31:38 AM »
<<Please offer your feelings about watching the speech.   Were you chilled in the least?>>

I congratulate you for picking up on the control factor.  It was there but I missed it.  You're good, Crane.

To those who think there are no grounds for impeachment:  there are grounds for hanging Bush as a  war criminal so there are certainly grounds for impeachment.  Planning and waging wars of unprovoked aggression is a capital crime at international law, one that brought Ribbentrop and other top Nazi leaders to the gallows and it definitely IS a high crime and misdemeanour.  The problem is there aren't many politicians with guts enough to call Bush's crimes what they are.  THAT'S why impeachment is a non-issue, not that there isn't a case.

yellow_crane

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2007, 12:32:56 AM »
Yes, framing impeachment would be difficult.

Not impossible.

Only how long will America continue to swallow when ordered, only to witness a spiralling mass of so much corruption?

Was he also 'stupid' and 'oblivious" to the massive amounts of missing money in Iraq?

Can he be impeached for hanging around such accused and alledged criminals as Halliburton, Raetheon, Bectel?  Does that qualify for aiding and abetting?

Does the buck stop there, at his desk.  Nixon was wily and competent at evasion, Bush is woolly and cares not that his foot is being chewed on by himself.  He seems to suggest he is absolved beforehand, by a bigger hand.

Nixon was impeached for what, erasing tapes, while Clinton for fibbing on initial inquiry if he fed Monica in the Biblical sense.  Neither of those were established concrete proof beforehand.

Impeachment seems to be a process, which developes upon consecrated inquiry, and does not have to be locked tight before out of the gate.  

We have seen through Watergate, through Starr, through Spitzer, through Fitz et al, that it grows thorns and traps as it goes.

But you have to get them there first.

The Democrats have just begun to open investigations.  

I think there will be ample material to assemble impeachment credibility.

And, above all, I meant impeachment was the sound thing to do, for the sake of healing in this now-divided nation, and not that it would.  I said Pelosi took it off the table.  I didn't hear Pelosi argue in the paucity of legal credibility, like you.  I can't google it, but I believe Pelosi took it off the table because of fall out, not from lack of legal bullets.  It would have taken her longer to determine that, and she acted immediately, and preemptorilly.  She should explain this herself.



Xavier_Onassis

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2007, 12:33:10 AM »
Juniorbush has never been anything but a divisive asshole. There is a reason why so many of us utterly despise the jerk.

He lied about nonexistent threats made against the nation by Iraq and mongered a war that need not to have been mongered.

He did this in the most incompetent way possible, surrounding himself with moronic Zionist NeoCons and spurning the advice of his Official Adult Supervision, Colin Powell. Iraq was turned into an anarchy, the De-Baathification process ended any real hope of order being restored. Military officers who disagreed with Juniorbush and Cheney were canned.

Both of these lying clowns deserve impeachment, conviction and serious jail time. There should be no Juniorbush Library for this klutz at all.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2007, 12:39:51 AM »
Yes, framing impeachment would be difficult.

Not impossible.

Only how long will America continue to swallow when ordered, only to witness a spiralling mass of so much corruption?

Was he also 'stupid' and 'oblivious" to the massive amounts of missing money in Iraq?

Can he be impeached for hanging around such accused and alledged criminals as Halliburton, Raetheon, Bectel?  Does that qualify for aiding and abetting?

Does the buck stop there, at his desk.  Nixon was wily and competent at evasion, Bush is woolly and cares not that his foot is being chewed on by himself.  He seems to suggest he is absolved beforehand, by a bigger hand.

Nixon was impeached for what, erasing tapes, while Clinton for fibbing on initial inquiry if he fed Monica in the Biblical sense.  Neither of those were established concrete proof beforehand.

Impeachment seems to be a process, which developes upon consecrated inquiry, and does not have to be locked tight before out of the gate.  

We have seen through Watergate, through Starr, through Spitzer, through Fitz et al, that it grows thorns and traps as it goes.

But you have to get them there first.

The Democrats have just begun to open investigations.  

I think there will be ample material to assemble impeachment credibility.

And, above all, I meant impeachment was the sound thing to do, for the sake of healing in this now-divided nation, and not that it would.  I said Pelosi took it off the table.  I didn't hear Pelosi argue in the paucity of legal credibility, like you.  I can't google it, but I believe Pelosi took it off the table because of fall out, not from lack of legal bullets.  It would have taken her longer to determine that, and she acted immediately, and preemptorilly.  She should explain this herself.





Not a single instance yet of President being caught in a lie at all.

But you think that an impeachment would be a cinch?

Try to find the proven lie , proven to a reasonable doubts standard , and then call it a credible possibility .


Nancy Pelosi is doing what she can, not what can't.

Amianthus

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2007, 12:41:38 AM »
Nixon was impeached for what, erasing tapes

This is the second time tonight you've made this incorrect statement.

Nixon was never impeached. There have been only two presidents impeached by Congress - Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

domer

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2007, 09:19:38 AM »
I've expressed my view of impeachment and will stick by it as legally sound. What I decry is the substitution of this inflammatory issue for the one we should really be discussing: what is the realistic alternative to a surge according to the analysis I sketched in the initial post?

Could it be, as Bush promotes, the worst possible outcome to let the civil violence in Iraq take its course? Does one last try make any sense when the odds of success are prohibitive? Would it be better simply to accept defeat now rather than expend more Americans lives pursuing a fait accompli? Is this stark lineup of alternatives all that there is? Can a full strategic case be made for withdrawal as actually optimizing our chances in Iraq and in the overall struggle with violent, radical Islam?

These are the questions of the moment, I suggest.

BT

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2007, 10:15:07 AM »
Quote
Does one last try make any sense when the odds of success are prohibitive?

Why are the odds to success prohibitive?


Plane

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2007, 02:20:27 PM »
I've expressed my view of impeachment and will stick by it as legally sound. What I decry is the substitution of this inflammatory issue for the one we should really be discussing: what is the realistic alternative to a surge according to the analysis I sketched in the initial post?

Could it be, as Bush promotes, the worst possible outcome to let the civil violence in Iraq take its course? Does one last try make any sense when the odds of success are prohibitive? Would it be better simply to accept defeat now rather than expend more Americans lives pursuing a fait accompli? Is this stark lineup of alternatives all that there is? Can a full strategic case be made for withdrawal as actually optimizing our chances in Iraq and in the overall struggle with violent, radical Islam?

These are the questions of the moment, I suggest.


  The alternatives are ,to fight as if we mean to be effective, surgeing and draing down as required for desired effect , or , fighting as if we were reponding to polls taken ten thousand miles away from the battle ,increaseing or decreaseing the troop strength with the effect on the battle being a secondary concern.

  The decision for whether or not to grow more agressve hould be delegated to the wisest head , in closest proximity to the fight, if effectiveness is a hgh priority.

  Surgeing now might be ineffective for all I know from my vantge point , if it were my decision to make I would want to attend the breifings that that the dusty officers are holding.

   


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2007, 05:15:50 PM »
This is the second time tonight you've made this incorrect statement.

Nixon was never impeached. There have been only two presidents impeached by Congress - Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton.
==============================================================
Neither Johnson nor Clinton was convicted and thrown out of office.

Nixon knew that if he did not resign, be would be both impeached and ejected from office in disgrace, so he left.

Clinton knew that the GOP didn't have the votes, so he hung on.
Johnson I suppose was convinced of his innocence and did the same.
===================================================
The NeoCons are essentially a just jawboning society. They have no actual power other than the power to persuade, and their powers of persuasion are in extreme post-Viagra mode.
 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2007, 05:44:28 PM »
The NeoCons are essentially a just jawboning society. They have no actual power other than the power to persuade, and their powers of persuasion are in extreme post-Viagra mode.

Actually sounds more like the UN.  And FYI, Ami's still right.  Still only 2 presidents ever Impeached, and Nixon wasn't 1 of them
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: All Bullshit Aside: Here Are the Issues
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2007, 06:22:01 PM »
Quote
And FYI, Ami's still right.  Still only 2 presidents ever Impeached, and Nixon wasn't 1 of them

XO knows that. That is why he didn't directly address AMI's post.