Author Topic: I know your not gonna believe this  (Read 19730 times)

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kimba1

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2007, 02:44:01 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Goetz

I think what sanked him was he shot one kid again after saying "you look ok here`s another"
it ain`t selfdefense when you do that.
your not supposed to mess with your attackers after shooting them.
the victim status will get revoked for such things

Michael Tee

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2007, 03:05:37 PM »
<<Think: Bernard Goetz>>

I thought Bernhardt Goetz or however he spells his first name.  If he didn't have the five bucks those punks were demanding, he was probably one of the exceptions to the rule - - better them than him.  OTOH, if he had the five bucks, better in the long run for everybody if he'd just handed it over.  The gunplay wound up costing the poor bugger everything he had.  Proving incidentally that if you DO shoot a street punk, you're probably way ahead of the game if you shoot to kill rather than merely wounding him.

Amianthus

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2007, 03:23:09 PM »
The gunplay wound up costing the poor bugger everything he had.  Proving incidentally that if you DO shoot a street punk, you're probably way ahead of the game if you shoot to kill rather than merely wounding him.

And don't bury the evidence in another state before turning yourself in. If you're gonna claim self-defence, turn yourself in immediately and cooperate with the police.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

kimba1

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2007, 03:26:47 PM »
what I didn`t know is he was able to file bankruptcy
I thought he`ll just owe the kid for life.

Michael Tee

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2007, 03:35:24 PM »
<<And don't bury the evidence in another state before turning yourself in. If you're gonna claim self-defence, turn yourself in immediately and cooperate with the police.>>

Exactly.   If his chances were good, he might have been justified in taking his shot at anonymity.  Turning himself in late was the worst of both worlds - - he should have thought it through carefully and decided right away: head for the hills or face the music.  Either or.  And stick with that first decision.

Plane

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2007, 04:30:45 PM »
If you are well armed you have the option to surrender .


If you are unarmed you have less option to fight , if I saw that I was going to loose the cash in my wallet and no more , I might just give it up rather than go to the trouble it takes to clean the gun.

If I were beset by someone that I perceived was liable to harm me , I would wish I were well prepared to resist.


What percent of Mugging victims are seriously hurt?

Home invasion victims?

How about rape victims?


At the beginning of this subject K mentioned the possiblibility of racially motivated harrassment , is submission the best choice more often than not?

I personally know one person who avoided being robbed by brandishing a gun that I had loaned to him,.....


...That was twelve years ago .... I might not be getting that gun back.

_JS

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2007, 05:00:50 PM »
Very few policemen, highway patrolmen, or park rangers ever have cause to draw their weapons, a very tiny percentage of them have had sufficient cause to discharge their weapon and kill another human being. It is not something to be taken lightly.

As was mentioned, be sure that you know the laws. Self-defense is not as cut and dry as some people make it out to be. Use of deadly force (in this case a firearm) is an extremely serious matter in most states and often it is incumbent on one to prove that the violence used was proportionate to the threat faced.

Defense of others is even more difficult to prove and there are duty to retreat issues as well.
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kimba1

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2007, 05:19:07 PM »
on crime in general having a gun may cut it down
but as a person who has worked with the public for over a decade
I have some serious doubts about the competency of the general population to use a gun.
having a gun doesn`t increase a persons intelligence

Amianthus

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2007, 05:20:55 PM »
I have some serious doubts about the competency of the general population to use a gun.
having a gun doesn`t increase a persons intelligence

Think of it as "evolution in action."
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2007, 05:23:04 PM »
Quote
Think of it as "evolution in action."

I thought that was driving.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2007, 05:24:52 PM »
I thought that was driving.

Evolution manifests itself in many ways every day. Some ways more direct than others.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

kimba1

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2007, 06:02:53 PM »
if gunership were to eliminate these slightly slower folks I`m talking about I`d be giving them away at the steets.
but I`m just thinking these folks are a danger period.
I know one kids who bought a qvc sword and popped a overhead light.
I`m not worried about his safety
I`m worried about mine.
the boy ain`t right.
he tried to swim with a plastic bag on his head.
and he ain`t even rare.
I swear in his neighborhood,I see the dna strand shredding before my eyes.
the term proud line of cousins come to mind

Michael Tee

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2007, 06:19:56 PM »
<<If you are well armed you have the option to surrender >>

Granted.  You also have the temptation to draw.  You also have a suppression of your early-warning instincts that say, "Move on!  Get out of here."

<<What percent of Mugging victims are seriously hurt?   Home invasion victims?  . . . rape victims?>>

Well, you don't know and I don't know.  Again, how many escaped harm because they listened to their early-warning systems?  Nobody even keeps stats on that.  You can't record a non-event.  How many of those who DID listen to their early-warning systems would have ignored the warnings if they had been armed?

<<I personally know one person who avoided being robbed by brandishing a gun that I had loaned to him,.....>>

Lucky guy.  Lucky that his robber wasn't more aggressive.  Lucky that he got the drop on the robber.  Lucky in one way or another.  Dumb as shit for escalating a potentially lethal situation without knowing the outcome and putting life and limb in jeopardy for the sake of a few bucks.

<<If you are unarmed you have less option to fight >>

That's probably a GOOD thing for most of us, unless we still nourish our own Rambo illusions.  Far better to flee, fork over the money or just not venture into bad-guy territory.  As I've said before, there are a lot less homicidal maniacs wandering about, determined to inflict serious injury for its own sake than there are muggers, grifters, extortionists of the kind who waylaid Bernhard Goetz, street punks and juvenile delinquents.  One guy in a thousand will encounter somebody who just wants to inflict serious injury and can't be escaped; the other 999 will encounter low-lifes whose first intention is not to do harm - - but who could be provoked or terrified into doing just that if you attempt, ineptly, to draw on them.

Rambo fantasies are fine for debating clubs, but in real life I think they're a lot likelier to end up in one kind of disaster or another for the guy dreaming the Rambo dream, especially if he's a sedentary, over-40 type guy with no special firearms training or practice.  Most of us just don't have what it takes to be Rambo, to get that weapon out and fire it with deadly effect all in the few seconds or fractions of a second that it will take before your adversary beats and kicks the living shit out of you without any fear of the consequences.




sirs

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2007, 07:03:11 PM »
Tee, with all due seriousness, it seems that you have concluded that anytime "any" person possesses a firearm, it mutates their way of thinking, turning them into some aggressive maniac, if not worse.  The point that Plane, Ami, Professor, and so many others have made, is that those who have gone thru significant firearms training & safety, are in large part MUCH safer in their handling of firearms than the punk kid on the street, who might not think twice in killing you or your loved one.  I can't count how many stories of lives that were saved by the presence of a firearm, as well as the many other tragic scenarios where a person with a firearm would have prevented some mass carnage/killing by some crackpot.

You're applying some mutation of a person's thought if someone is simply possessing & handling a gun.....which likely IS the case for those hoodlums, punks, and gang members.  They probably are much more likely to pull it and use it, if they have one.  The ones who are much more likely to stop said punk killers, if the police aren't around, are precisely those who have been trained to handle a firearm, and are carrying a concealed weapon.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Lanya

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Re: I know your not gonna believe this
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2007, 10:08:46 PM »
My huge worry about owning a gun is that I'll wound an attacker, they'll tell lies about the incident, and I'll go to jail. 

Better than being dead, yes. But it's a huge responsibility and worry.  Also I worry that, like a sheriff's deputy here, I would be disarmed and killed by my own weapon.
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