Author Topic: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah  (Read 18438 times)

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Plane

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2008, 06:57:32 PM »
Plane:  <<The US is hamstrung with so many pacifists and people who grow war weary quickly that it is a paper tiger whose threats and diplomats can be ignored.>>

Nonsense.
There are  realists who can see there would be no good result in attacking a country who did not attack us.

If they did, I'm sure we would reinstate the draft very quickly.

There is a diffrence between pacifisism and realism, there is no good reason to attack a country that means us no harm , the harm that another country means to cause us needs to evaluated carefully before any attack is proposed .

The Draft would be useless if we were attacked , I mean how would it help?

President James Carter attacked Iran , with just slightly too few vehicles , he had volenteers running out his ears but he needed two more helicopters to stage the raid he had planned.

There is no retroactive preparednedss , no way to deliver strength to the past. If there is an attack planned on Americans we have the response ready or we have nothing.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2008, 07:38:34 PM »
Neither Iran nor Syria has the motive nor the ability to do harm to the US, so attacking them would make about as much sense as attacking Nepal or Bolivia.

The draft would serve to turn pretty much everyone of draft age against the government and its foolish wars, as happened in Vietnam.

The Iran Hostage Crisis was the fault of Henry Kissinger and Jimmy Carter for listening to him. It would never have happened has Carter not sucked mightily up to the nasty little Shah.

At most all this silly talk of yet another war is truculent posturing by the US to counter the equally truculent posturing of Iran, Syria, and Israel. Everyone in the Middle East does this, and it's all blather.

There will be no new war. There certainly won't be a draft.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2008, 09:27:14 PM »
Neither Iran nor Syria has the motive nor the ability to do harm to the US, so attacking them would make about as much sense as attacking Nepal or Bolivia.

Tell this to Carter or the hostages kidnapped for 444 days , Iran is prone to crazyness and reprobate behavior.
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The draft would serve to turn pretty much everyone of draft age against the government and its foolish wars, as happened in Vietnam.

In the case being discussed , this would be a draft after a pearl harbor or 9-11 sort of incident , the people would turn on the government even when the people were under attack? I think that we will not have the time to institute a draft to any good effect so late , you seem to be saying that even under attack Americans won't organise a defense .
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The Iran Hostage Crisis was the fault of Henry Kissinger and Jimmy Carter for listening to him. It would never have happened has Carter not sucked mightily up to the nasty little Shah.

I absolutely reject this premise , these crimes should be blamed on the criminals that committed them , I don't give a fig that they felt insulted and I also reject the notion that the Ayatollah instituted any improvements above the standard of the Shah.
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At most all this silly talk of yet another war is truculent posturing by the US to counter the equally truculent posturing of Iran, Syria, and Israel. Everyone in the Middle East does this, and it's all blather.

I hope so. But better to have an extinguisher for a fire that never breaks out than to have no extinguisher when a fire does break out.
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There will be no new war. There certainly won't be a draft.

It will be nice if you are right and humanity has changed its ancient ways. I agree that the Draft is useless though for diffrent reasons.
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« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 10:00:44 PM by Plane »

Rich

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2008, 09:54:32 PM »
>>Pacifists have not managed to stop Juniorbush and Cheney ...<<

Pacifists can be pacifists only if people are willing to fight to protect them. Otherwise they'd just be dead. Which would be better for us all in the long run.

Plane

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2008, 10:01:46 PM »
>>Pacifists have not managed to stop Juniorbush and Cheney ...<<

Pacifists can be pacifists only if people are willing to fight to protect them. Otherwise they'd just be dead. Which would be better for us all in the long run.


I think Pacifists are very rightious and effective, In Iranian prisons.

Rich

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2008, 10:09:23 PM »
>>I think Pacifists are very rightious and effective, In Iranian prisons.<<

 :D

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2008, 12:17:56 AM »
The people who held the hostages are not running Iran now.
Iranians were ticked off at the US for deliberately destroying the democratically elected government of Mossadegh in the 1950's, and replacing it with the nasty little Shah. The US manipulated Iran for over 25 years through the Shah.

The point is not whether the Ayatollah was better or worse than the Shah. Iran is not run by the Ayatollah now, and has no motive for starting a war with the US.

Ahmedinejad is simply using the dislike that the Iranian people have for Israel to bolster his own support, but he does not have the power to start a war. Iran has helped the US in both Iran and Afghanistan from time to time.

US pacifists are nowhere near Iranian prisons.






"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2008, 12:26:39 AM »


Destroy Iran's nukes to save our cities
By Alasdair Palmer
27/04/2008

One of the most terrifying possibilities the world faces is that al-Qa'eda, or some other Islamist group, gets hold of a nuclear bomb. Islamist terrorists are certainly trying to obtain one: Osama bin Laden has issued a document entitled "The Nuclear Bomb of Islam", which insists it is "the duty" of Muslims to acquire a nuclear bomb in order to use "as much force as possible to terrorise the enemies of God".

Con Coughlin: The real reason the Syrian base was destroyed
The Foreign Office's senior counter-terrorist official has "no doubt at all" that Islamist terrorists are actively seeking a nuclear device. "There are people" he adds dryly, "for whom exploding a nuclear bomb in a city would be a triumph for the cause."

 A 10 kiloton nuclear bomb would be a relatively small one by today's standards, but a 10 kiloton explosion in a city would mean that, from the centre of the blast for a distance of one third of a mile, every structure above ground level would be obliterated and every person would be killed instantly.

For the next third of a mile, the city would look like the weird moonscape which Berlin had become by the end of World War Two, after almost a year of Allied bombing raids.

And for a third of mile beyond that circle of hell, buildings and people would burn, both with flames and the effects of radiation.

To consider that outcome is to realise that it must be prevented. But how? Deterrence - the threat that if you detonate a nuclear bomb in our country, we will retaliate in kind on yours - has so far prevented nuclear war between nations. The only time nuclear bombs have been used, it was against a country without the capacity to retaliate.

Deterrence, however, depends on your enemy having cities and a population that can be threatened with obliteration.

The problem is that terrorist organisations have neither. They are simply groups of individuals with no responsibility for, and no control over, a state or its population.

Deterrence breaks down as a consequence. If they could get hold of a nuclear bomb, Islamist terrorists would have every incentive to use it to cause as much destruction as possible in an "enemy" country such as Britain or America - and there's no threat we can brandish to stop them.

Which means that the over-arching aim of the civilised world must be to ensure that they cannot get hold of a nuclear bomb, because that is the only way we can protect ourselves against nuclear terrorism.

The most powerful argument against allowing nuclear proliferation is that the more countries that have the bomb, the more likely it is that one will end up in the hands of terrorists.

Nuclear bombs are still, mercifully, beyond the capacity of terrorist groups to engineer for themselves: a terrorist organisation would have to get one from a government.

When the governments trying to acquire the technology for making nuclear bombs are known to train and supply Islamist terrorist groups - as Syria and Iran, for example, certainly do - the importance of preventing them obtaining the capacity to make such bombs is overwhelming.

That is why the Israelis destroyed Syria's "not for peaceful means" nuclear facility last September, and why the rest of the world acquiesced in the destruction, which broke international law and had no United Nations resolution.

It is also why the US continues to send signals to Iran that it will not oppose, indeed might even join in, any attempt by Israel to hit Iran's fledgling nuclear facilities: sending precisely that signal must have been at least part of the point of last week's very public announcement that the Israeli raid on Syria's putative nuclear bomb factory had been successful.

Governments can perhaps be deterred from leaking nuclear weapons to terrorist groups by the thought of what the Americans would do to them if there were a nuclear explosion in an American city and the construction of the fatal bomb could be traced back to, say, Iran or Syria.

The Americans have not been shy about letting those governments know what would happen. As one US official put it to me: "We would totally obliterate the country responsible" - a phrase echoed by Hillary Clinton when she said the US would "totally obliterate" Iran if that country was responsible for a nuclear attack even on Israel, never mind America.

Governments, however, are not always able to control all their members. Some members of the Iranian administration might not be deterred by the prospect of nuclear armageddon (indeed, some seem to welcome it). Which means that the only way to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of terrorists it to keep them out of the hands of national governments who might give them to terrorists.

If Iran builds a nuclear bomb factory, you can be sure that Israel will try to destroy it. You can also be sure that, when it happens, the rest of the world will not object.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/04/27/do2705.xml



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fatman

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2008, 12:38:52 AM »
Yes, by all means let's invade Iran so that we can watch gas hit $9 a gallon.  Heck, maybe even $10.  Of course, at that price the military will need most of the domestic production to run the war machine, so get your gas ration card.

No doubt this will help an economy quickly sinking into a morass of debt with a falling dollar.  I mean, all of those high oil prices have helped the economy, right?

I'm sure that it is well worth it to grind this country to an economic halt to take on Iran.  Looking past the economic aspect, I'm sure that we can squander our already thin military resources in an Iranian campaign.  Hopefully we can mismanage this thing as badly as we did with Iraq for the first three or four years.  I think that Lanya has this one correct, we'd have to instate a draft for the manpower.  No doubt that will help the economy as well, removing all of those able bodied fellows from the work force.

No doubt CU4, who seems to want this war so damned much, will be first in line at the recruiting office.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Plane

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2008, 12:55:40 AM »
Yes, by all means let's invade Iran so that we can watch gas hit $9 a gallon.  Heck, maybe even $10.  Of course, at that price the military will need most of the domestic production to run the war machine, so get your gas ration card.

No doubt this will help an economy quickly sinking into a morass of debt with a falling dollar.  I mean, all of those high oil prices have helped the economy, right?

I'm sure that it is well worth it to grind this country to an economic halt to take on Iran.  Looking past the economic aspect, I'm sure that we can squander our already thin military resources in an Iranian campaign.  Hopefully we can mismanage this thing as badly as we did with Iraq for the first three or four years.  I think that Lanya has this one correct, we'd have to instate a draft for the manpower.  No doubt that will help the economy as well, removing all of those able bodied fellows from the work force.

No doubt CU4, who seems to want this war so damned much, will be first in line at the recruiting office.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Iran should be allowed to develop atomic wepons so that the price of gas will remain reasonable?

fatman

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2008, 12:58:51 AM »
Is the economic destabilization of this nation worth stopping Iran from developing a technology that in all honesty, they will develop if they really want it?

fatman

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2008, 01:08:37 AM »
I notice that you deftly sidestepped the military issue.  With ration cards and a draft, how long do you think that the people of this nation will support an invasion of Iran?  This isn't WWII with a clearly defined enemy, it's a backward nation that has a lot of oil wealth led by a religious monopoly.  With most petroleum production going to military resources, farmers will have to rely more on migrant labor for crop harvest.  Is it unrealistic to see agriculture production falling in such a scenario?

The pre-emptive doctrine is a poor one.  It was faulty with the Communist threat, detente and triangulation proved to be more effective than warfare in neutralizing the domino theory.  Why would I think that it would prove better in this case?

Plane

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2008, 01:51:32 AM »
Communism was wrestled down as strangled to death , lucky that Communism helped to strangle itself.

They want us dead , me and you included .

Now their problem is how to get us to sit still while they do what it takes to get it done.


Lately it seems that Iranian patriots make vague threatening statements or boat maneuvers that raise the price of oil on the spot market , increaseing the resorces availible to the government.


I suggest that they have few uses for a small number of atomic bombs , but they are building a tremendouus plant for bomb building they are going to need a lot of these bombs to fight us and they seem to be prepareing to do just that.

They are not patient though , they are killing americans in Iraq already , if that isn't an act of war what is?

I further suggest this course of action - close the straight of hormouz to all ship traffic that doesn't carry a badge issued by American ship inspectors , no Iranian oil gets out , no dollors or Euros or rice gets in , we can put up with $30 gas longer than they can deal with $50 rice , and the US Navy can close the straight better than anyone elese could. We would not want to occupy the territory or take the oil , we would want them to break down the Atomic bomb building plants and hand them over the way Quaddifi did.

Of course we can instead wait till they do what they promise each other every day in their twenty minutes hate "Death to America" after they have exploded a few bombs in a few of our citys we will obliterate them just as future President Hillary Clinton promises , no liveing thing left within their borders at all.

What makes the second idea preferable I don't see.

fatman

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2008, 02:06:15 AM »
They are not patient though , they are killing americans in Iraq already , if that isn't an act of war what is?

From my understanding, and feel free to correct it if I'm wrong, but what you have are Iranians leaving Iran to fight in Iraq, with the supposed backing of the Iranian government.  Are these regular Iranian soldiers, or are they individuals who take it upon themselves?  Because if they're not regular Iranian soldiers, then to say that their fighting is an act of war would be the same as saying that Spain could have declared war on the US because of the Abraham Lincoln brigade in the Spanish Civil War, or the South could have declared war on Ireland for the involvement of Irish brigades in our Civil War.  At least that's my thinking on the matter.

I further suggest this course of action - close the straight of hormouz to all ship traffic that doesn't carry a badge issued by American ship inspectors , no Iranian oil gets out , no dollors or Euros or rice gets in , we can put up with $30 gas longer than they can deal with $50 rice , and the US Navy can close the straight better than anyone elese could. We would not want to occupy the territory or take the oil , we would want them to break down the Atomic bomb building plants and hand them over the way Quaddifi did.

I would support this course of action, and I think most Americans would find it preferable to a land invasion of Iran.  There are two problems to be addressed with this proposal though.

First, the humanitarian crisis that it is nearly certain to cause.  Secondly, selling the idea to the Europeans, whose cooperation would be necessary.

If those could be worked out, I'd support a blockade.

Plane

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2008, 02:27:51 AM »
They are not patient though , they are killing americans in Iraq already , if that isn't an act of war what is?

From my understanding, and feel free to correct it if I'm wrong, but what you have are Iranians leaving Iran to fight in Iraq, with the supposed backing of the Iranian government.  Are these regular Iranian soldiers, or are they individuals who take it upon themselves?  Because if they're not regular Iranian soldiers, then to say that their fighting is an act of war would be the same as saying that Spain could have declared war on the US because of the Abraham Lincoln brigade in the Spanish Civil War, or the South could have declared war on Ireland for the involvement of Irish brigades in our Civil War.  At least that's my thinking on the matter.

I further suggest this course of action - close the straight of hormouz to all ship traffic that doesn't carry a badge issued by American ship inspectors , no Iranian oil gets out , no dollors or Euros or rice gets in , we can put up with $30 gas longer than they can deal with $50 rice , and the US Navy can close the straight better than anyone elese could. We would not want to occupy the territory or take the oil , we would want them to break down the Atomic bomb building plants and hand them over the way Quaddifi did.

I would support this course of action, and I think most Americans would find it preferable to a land invasion of Iran.  There are two problems to be addressed with this proposal though.

First, the humanitarian crisis that it is nearly certain to cause.  Secondly, selling the idea to the Europeans, whose cooperation would be necessary.

If those could be worked out, I'd support a blockade.


I can work out the European co-operation . Ignore them , they don't carry the strength that Iran does , if they want to stay out of it let them. Middle east Oil makes lots of diffrence in Europe so they would be the most vunerable , so if we are going to do it anyway they might as well help and try to make it short.

The Humanitarian crisis is the point of the exercise , they can give in immediately and no one will loose weight , Pride demands though that they see a lot of dieing before they admit that they are not able to defeat us , there would be smuggleing overland supplys so that their wealthy and powerfull would get fed , most of the dead would be those already marginal .

The best outcome would be upriseing of outraged populace , makeing the threat realistic seeming might be enough to do , the perception of a realistic threat  might preclude the need to lift a finger on our part.