Author Topic: Criticizing the victims  (Read 2017 times)

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Lanya

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Criticizing the victims
« on: April 19, 2007, 12:44:45 AM »
[This just in: Derb and Steyn are such brave  men, they're enlisting in the ARMY! 
Not.]

Joan Walsh
Wednesday April 18, 2007 17:22 EST
More cruelty from right-wing crackpots

The difference between liberals and conservatives, Chapter 973: While liberal Salon readers were debating the decorum of criticizing the president on a national day of mourning over the Virginia Tech massacre, conservative bomb throwers wasted no time criticizing ... the victims.

It's not just Mad John Derbyshire yesterday -- "Where was the spirit of self-defense here ... [W]hy didn't anyone rush the guy?" That was bad enough. Today the National Review's Mark Steyn blamed the "awful corrosive passivity" of Virginia Tech students for not defending themselves against Cho Seung-Hui. He even mocks the male students as somehow not quite being men. (I found this at Think Progress.)

"I’m not sure I'm ready to go the full Derb but I think he's closer to the reality of the situation than most. ... Point one: They're not 'children.' The students at Virginia Tech were grown women and -- if you'll forgive the expression -- men.

"We do our children a disservice to raise them to entrust all to officialdom's security blanket. Geraldo-like 'protection' is a delusion: when something goes awry -- whether on a September morning flight out of Logan or on a peaceful college campus -- the state won't be there to protect you. You'll be the fellow on the scene who has to make the decision."

The hideous Michelle Malkin is even worse. "There's no polite way or time to say it: American colleges and universities have become coddle industries," she begins (as if she's ever thought about a polite time or way to say anything). She continues: "Instead of teaching students to defend their beliefs, American educators shield them from vigorous intellectual debate. Instead of encouraging autonomy, our higher institutions of learning stoke passivity and conflict-avoidance.

"And as the erosion of intellectual self-defense goes, so goes the erosion of physical self-defense." Malkin then goes off on a predictable rant against the Virginia law that prevents guns on campus.

So let's sort this out: On a day when people of conscience and common sense are asking what makes a miserable young man turn to guns and violence, conservative provocateurs are insisting the answer is more guns and violence. Over three tragic days, I've found solace in the actions of two Virginia Tech professors: the courageous Holocaust survivor Liviu Librescu, who died blocking the door so his students could get away, and English department chair Lucinda Roy, who tutored Cho personally when other students were afraid to be in class with him; who tried to get him counseling, and even went to the police with her concerns about the dangerously depressed student. But Malkin and Steyn are telling me Librescu and Roy are actually part of the problem.

Of course, I'd rather be in the camp where people debate whether it's OK to criticize the president in a time of tragedy than in the camp where people blame the victims of the tragedy. I actually feel sorry for decent conservatives today, having to be soiled by association with such garbage. But if you ever find yourself wondering why liberals are so often out-shouted in the public sphere, even though most Americans agree with their politics, remember this moment. It isn't easy to compete with wingnuts who will say absolutely anything to make their points. When Ann Coulter's cracks about the 9/11 widows start to look tame by comparison, you know standards of public discourse are continuing to erode.
-- Joan Walsh

http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/politics/2007/04/18/wingnuts/index.html
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Plane

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2007, 01:09:37 AM »



    I remember some talking after the Columbine shooting about plans to train the students in classes to throw books at an assailant .


     Armchair quarterbacking isn't really fair , after all we do know about at least one professor who resisted the shooter.


       Would rushing the gunman and throwing books save some lives?  Perhaps , but there would be precious little time to organise .

       There is just nothing possible to do that would leave such a very malicious person harmless and any prepartion for such an attack would have to be done wth the knoledge of the malicious as much as the rest of us.

BT

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2007, 01:12:35 AM »
Lanya

What makes you any better than Steyn or Derbyshire?

You, by you choice to post this diatribe, are trying to make the same political hay as they are.

If it is to be shame on them, shouldn't it also be shame on you?

Hemingway once wrote about moments of truth.

Life is full of forks in the road.

I don't know what was going through the minds of the students at the time, but i can be reasonably sure the survivors have a lot of "what if"  soul searching in their future. Realistic or not. Rational or not.

That is the nature of the beast.



Plane

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2007, 01:24:55 AM »
Quote
  [John Derbyshire]


http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YzllOTU0MDUzY2NhZDE2YmViYmRiNmE5ZjM1OWQxYTU=


As NRO's designated chickenhawk, let me be the one to ask: Where was the spirit of self-defense here? Setting aside the ludicrous campus ban on licensed conceals, why didn't anyone rush the guy? It's not like this was Rambo, hosing the place down with automatic weapons. He had two handguns for goodness' sake—one of them reportedly a .22.
 
At the very least, count the shots and jump him reloading or changing hands. Better yet, just jump him. Handguns aren't very accurate, even at close range. I shoot mine all the time at the range, and I still can't hit squat. I doubt this guy was any better than I am. And even if hit, a .22 needs to find something important to do real damage—your chances aren't bad.
 
Yes, yes, I know it's easy to say these things: but didn't the heroes of Flight 93 teach us anything? As the cliche goes—and like most cliches. It's true—none of us knows what he'd do in a dire situation like that. I hope, however, that if I thought I was going to die anyway, I'd at least take a run at the guy.



Well John , counting the shots won't work unless you know what sort of gun is being used and what size the magazine is , could be eight ,could be sixteen.

If the gunman were rushed while he was already fireing he would hold the advantage untill the survivors actually arrived at him .

The question is left begging, would it be a good idea for the students to  have something more like defense   , or something more like easy retreat?

How about sturdy doors?

Lanya

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2007, 05:47:11 AM »
Sturdy doors would really help.  Locked, too.

Nothing makes me better than these writers.  I am not second-guessing the victims which makes me feel better, but as to being any better, I'm sure I'm not.
People are going to experience survivor guilt over this as it is.   
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Amianthus

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2007, 08:06:00 AM »
Armchair quarterbacking isn't really fair , after all we do know about at least one professor who resisted the shooter.

And that professor saved many lives with his resistance.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2007, 09:57:08 AM »
Quote
Well John , counting the shots won't work unless you know what sort of gun is being used and what size the magazine is , could be eight ,could be sixteen.

LOL

Excellent point Plane. Plus, he could have a number of already loaded handguns on his person (for all that the victims knew).

Quote
If the gunman were rushed while he was already fireing he would hold the advantage untill the survivors actually arrived at him .

Perhaps John envisioned a China-like human wave assault where each student climbed over the dead body of his comrade until there were no bullets left to fire. One wonders how many lives that would have saved?
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Amianthus

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2007, 10:31:01 AM »
Perhaps John envisioned a China-like human wave assault where each student climbed over the dead body of his comrade until there were no bullets left to fire. One wonders how many lives that would have saved?

Because we know that Cho was Rambo-like in his skills, and could mow them down as fast as they came on him.

A few going at him at the same time, and he would only be able to take out one or two.

Think New York train.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2007, 12:38:57 PM »
Quote
Well John , counting the shots won't work unless you know what sort of gun is being used and what size the magazine is , could be eight ,could be sixteen.

LOL

Excellent point Plane. Plus, he could have a number of already loaded handguns on his person (for all that the victims knew).

Quote
If the gunman were rushed while he was already fireing he would hold the advantage untill the survivors actually arrived at him .

Perhaps John envisioned a China-like human wave assault where each student climbed over the dead body of his comrade until there were no bullets left to fire. One wonders how many lives that would have saved?

We only really know that what we have done so far was not enough.

If I were King , I would have every citizen who didn't have a very serious reason not to carry a Government issue single shot pistol.

A wave of human bodys might be effective ,and might not, but in a class of fifteen to fourty the odds that one could get a good shot off is pretty good.

The Government issue single shot would not be a very good murder wepon if we used MT's idea of marking each bullet with a serial number.

I would still leave buying better guns as an optional right of a citizen , but a citizen found with no gun at all should be fined with a fine big enough to buy such a gun.

_JS

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2007, 12:59:17 PM »
Surely you'd not make someone carry a firearm who did not believe in harming another human being, Plane?

And, what if they missed? If a stray bullet killed an innocent? Who is legally liable?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

kimba1

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2007, 01:44:40 PM »
where the hell were you .plane?
I had a talk about people requiring to own guns
and sirs was almost thinking i was making it all up.
i needed you there to back me up
dude!!!!!!!!!!!

Amianthus

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2007, 01:49:04 PM »
I had a talk about people requiring to own guns
and sirs was almost thinking i was making it all up.
i needed you there to back me up

Codifying a requirement to own firearms is different from calling people idiots for not owning them.

The former is what Plane proposed, the latter is what you claimed.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2007, 04:45:34 PM »
where the hell were you .plane?
I had a talk about people requiring to own guns
and sirs was almost thinking i was making it all up.
i needed you there to back me up
dude!!!!!!!!!!!


I am here for you man.

The origin of this idea is Archie Bunker .

Plane

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Re: Criticizing the victims
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2007, 04:50:31 PM »
Surely you'd not make someone carry a firearm who did not believe in harming another human being, Plane?


No, if they were Quakers or otherwise contientious objectors I would give them a special hat instead so that the police would not hassle them.

And, what if they missed? If a stray bullet killed an innocent? Who is legally liable?

A miss is the worst problem , can I mandate training from an early age also?
The government should carry the liability unless someone were behind on his training schedule.