Author Topic: The Chavez Meltdown!  (Read 8693 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2010, 12:15:31 PM »
On a slightly related tangent, Ami, what did you think of the Toyota Supra, circa 1986 - 1992?  Just curious

I never owned one (I had several Tercels and a Cressida). I had a friend who had a Supra from that time period ('87, maybe?) and loved it.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Rich

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2010, 12:21:59 PM »
>>Cars like the Vega, Pinto, Neon, Cavalier and Escort were not designed by any union people. Nor did unions decide that people should be sold enormous SUV gashogs and trucks when any fool could see that a surge in gas prices would collapse the market.<<

Notice that the cars he mentions were all cars built to address the high price of gasoline. By the way, Escorts were one of the best selling cars Ford ever made. All of them long before there was a perceived surge in gas prices. So the people who claim that American automobile manufacturers never address fule efficiency are nothing but drones repeating the statist line.

As for SUV's and pickup trucks, take a look at what you see on the road around you everyday. Then try and claim American automobile manufacturers didn't give the American car buyer what he/she wanted. You sure do see a lot of SUV's and pickups out there.


sirs

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2010, 12:42:32 PM »
On a slightly related tangent, Ami, what did you think of the Toyota Supra, circa 1986 - 1992?  Just curious

I never owned one (I had several Tercels and a Cressida). I had a friend who had a Supra from that time period ('87, maybe?) and loved it.

In college, that was the car that really stood out to me.  Simple but impressive.  A Sports car that was more of a luxury car than a performance car.  I recall reading how heavy it was for a car that size, and that if anything ever did go wrong with it, you wouldn't need a mechanic, you'd need someone with a PhD in computers.

Alas, never had that kind of money to buy one at the time.  Had to settle for an '82 200SX
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2010, 12:53:05 PM »
if anything ever did go wrong with it, you wouldn't need a mechanic, you'd need someone with a PhD in computers.

Compared to modern cars, it was a simple car with only 2 computers IIRC. My Five Hundred, for example, has something like 17 computers for handling the engine, emissions, and drive train. Plus a few more for climate control and entertainment. And my tablet and phone network with the car via BlueTooth when they're nearby.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2010, 01:28:36 PM »
.
The usual complaint about Toyotas is that they are boring.

If that's the complaint, then thats says a lot!



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sirs

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2010, 01:32:14 PM »
if anything ever did go wrong with it, you wouldn't need a mechanic, you'd need someone with a PhD in computers.

Compared to modern cars, it was a simple car with only 2 computers IIRC.

True.  We're speaking of "at the time".  Can't imagine all the computer and fly by wire stuff they're coming up with now

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BSB

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2010, 01:42:06 PM »
Ami: "Actually, I'll disagree with you on this. The early 90's cars were all crap, but that was also the time Toyotas started to go downhill."

And I gota disagree with you. The Toyotas were great in the 90s. I had a Camry, a Camry station wagon, and an Avalon in the 90s. They were all excellent cars. I've owned 3 Lexus products and that Camry station wagon, and that Avalon, were as good or better then two of the Lexuses I've had. I don't think they've made as good an Avalon since.

From my perspective Toyota started to slide a bit beginning 2001/2. I think you jumped ship a decade, or so, early, Ami.

Amianthus

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #67 on: February 01, 2010, 01:54:16 PM »
And I gota disagree with you. The Toyotas were great in the 90s. I had a Camry, a Camry station wagon, and an Avalon in the 90s. They were all excellent cars. I've owned 3 Lexus products and that Camry station wagon, and that Avalon, were as good or better then two of the Lexuses I've had. I don't think they've made as good an Avalon since.

From my perspective Toyota started to slide a bit beginning 2001/2. I think you jumped ship a decade, or so, early, Ami.

I notice you only mention their "top of the line" cars as being good. The lower end cars starting slipping in quality a decade earlier, notably the Tercel, Cressida, and Corolla, as I pointed out. That's like saying that Buicks are good because they also make good Cadillacs.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

BSB

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #68 on: February 01, 2010, 02:13:01 PM »
Not at all. What I listed is what I owned and drove. By the way, the Cressida wasn't a lower end car. It was their top of the line 4 door, before the Avalon, and wagon before the Camry station wagon.



Amianthus

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2010, 02:22:28 PM »
Not at all. What I listed is what I owned and drove. By the way, the Cressida wasn't a lower end car. It was their top of the line 4 door, before the Avalon, and wagon before the Camry station wagon.

By '92, the Camry and the Lexus had replaced the Cressida as their top of the line, and after '92 it was gone. At that time, it was at best a mid-line car. I had an '87 Cressida, a '92 Tercel, and three friends with Corollas ('90, '93, and I forget the last one) - none of them was in the same league quality wise as earlier models of those same model cars. My father had a Camry in the same time period and it was a good car, but it was a top of the line car at the time. As I said, the early 90's was when Toyota quality *started* slipping. Obviously, it wasn't all going to go "poof" overnight - the lower end cars are where you noticed it first.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2010, 04:17:41 PM »
They sold a lot of Escorts because they were cheap. Instead of saying that the Escort, Cavalier and Neon were icky little cars, I could have said that the LeBaron, the Buick Regal and Olds Cutlass and Mercury Topaz were also icky midsize cars.The point was that the unions were not to blame for the inferior design of US cars during the 80's and 9o's. I had an 82 Buick Regal, and it was seriously crappy: the plastic door fittings could be scratched permanently with a dull fingernail, the rear windows would not roll down at all, and the V-6 engine had about 80 bhp and blew a gasket at 58K. The AC was a constant problem and the dashboard caught fire and rendered the entire car undriveable and unrepairable at 82K. The car did not stop well, and I later discovered that the front rotors were the same size as those on a Chevette. The rear brakes were drums. Even the big GM cars sucked: the Eldorado had a terrible problem with the FWD.

None of this can be blamed on any union: they were poorly designed and made of shoddy materials.

I had a 77 Celica. I bought it in 1981 and drove it until 1998. It had over 200K and I got rid of it because it had rusted out under the front vents and when it rained, water poured in on my feet. The back window had a vented cover that caused the window gasket to rust out. It was fun to drive and averaged around 25 mpg, and I have never gotten so much for my money from any car. It looked like a small Mustang and had a 5 speed on the floor.

The major problem was keeping the front end in line and of course, the rust. It would have been a fine car for Arizona or NM.



 
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BSB

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2010, 04:36:55 PM »
I agree that they cut their teeth with the smaller cars. Engines you couldn't kill, etc. Whether it was a because of a different emphasis, the Camry, and Lexus, or whether they did it on purpose to herd people towards the bigger, newer cars, I don't know. Probably both. But a different emphasis isn't the same as slipping. It was a reorganization done to grow their appeal, and customer base, no doubt. And, they succeeded. Therefore I don't believe you can call the 90s anything but a success for Toyota as they made new lines of cars that where essentially bullet proof.


Amianthus

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2010, 04:56:58 PM »
It was a reorganization done to grow their appeal, and customer base, no doubt. And, they succeeded. Therefore I don't believe you can call the 90s anything but a success for Toyota as they made new lines of cars that where essentially bullet proof.

I guess they decided their customer base didn't need anyone who couldn't afford a $25K+ car, as those were the only ones that were any good. People who could only afford $10-15K cars weren't good customer material for Toyota, I guess, except for their poorer quality cars. So, those customers (like me) went with the better quality small cars from Ford, and we stuck with them as we moved up to bigger vehicles.


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Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2010, 02:57:28 AM »
<<The notion that the people need someone else, who is only a person or group of persons no better than the rest of the people, to tell them what is their best interests is arrogance and folly.>>

Take out that "no better than the rest of the people," turn it around in your hands long enough to examine it from every angle.  Maybe then you'll see where you went wrong.  You don't just JOIN the CP like one joins the Democrats or the Republicans, it's an elite group that you APPLY for membership in.  And the people at the top of the hierarchy have worked their way up there, though the apparat.

Than you for illustrating the arrogance that is one of the major flaws of communism/socialism. I know the people in the Communist Party want to believe they're better than everyone else, but that doesn't make it so. One has to apply to work for Apple or Harvard or Mensa too, and the people at the top of those groups have worked their way up, but that doesn't mean they're better people than the rest of us or are in any way qualified to determine what are the best interests of the rest of us. Yes, the dean of Harvard might know more than the head of the plumbing business, but no one with a modicum of sense is going to call the dean of Harvard when the toilet is clogged. They're all just people. Just human beings. They are not more perfect or more moral or more righteous than the rest of us. That goes for communists and socialists and members of the CP too.

I wanted to "steer" this auto tangent back to a great point Prince was making, and how impressively Tee provided the materials in doing so.  All these liberal socialist claims Tee has that Communism really has the people's best intentions at heart, all the while providing the very axe that tears that notion down, by the differing class of people.  Those that supposedly know better, the elites, and the rest of us troglodytes, who will always need the elites telling us what we need, what we'll get, how we'll act, and what will happen to us, if we don't.  All the while the elites remain above all the mundane societal obligations, since they have to spend so much energy telling us how things are to be, because they just know better.  Even if it means making things up, like man made global warming.  And if you don't accept that....well, there's always liquidation

Brings me to this little piece I saw, that helps highlight the most egregious flaws in liberal think.  And I'd challenge any of the leftists that frequent the board to refute or defend these flaws

1) Liberals believe they can change human nature. Sure, human beings can be shaped and molded to a certain extent. Any parent who has spanked a child can tell you that. However, most people care more about what they're having for lunch today than an earthquake that kills ten thousand people on the other side of the world. We're just built that way and no amount of sensitivity training, preschool classes, or Michael Moore documentaries is going to "fix" it.

2) Liberals believe we can talk everything out with our enemies. One of the weirder quirks of liberalism is their belief that many of our bitterest enemies have rational reasons for disliking us and that can easily be talked away if they realize we're good people. Hence, the common liberal refrain of, "Why do they hate us?" The reason this is a particularly odd belief is that liberals don't even believe this about conservatives in the United States. The average liberal thinks that if we're nice enough, we can reach an understanding with Hugo Chavez or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, but Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck can't be reasoned with.

3) Liberals don't have enough respect for our culture and traditions: To liberals, our cultural, economic, and political norms were formed by backwards troglodytes making arbitrary decisions based on superstition and racism. Unfortunately for them, as a general rule, that's not so and proceeding as if it is, will often lead to exactly the same difficulties that our ancestors already dealt with in times past. No matter how smart we are, as Thomas Sowell would say, our wisdom is often no match for the "distilled experience of millions who faced similar human vicissitudes before." Truly wise people are aware that there is a great deal that they do not know.

4) Liberalism is a fundamentally immoral political philosophy. Ironically, given all their talk about "shades of gray," liberals have a very Manichean view of the world. They consider their fellow travelers to be on the side of the angels, while the people who disagree with them are treated as evil. This leads to an "anything goes" mentality when dealing with their foes: ignoring the law via a "living constitution," politically based prosecutions, shouting down opposing speakers, and treating lying about their agenda or opponents to be moral. On the other hand, liberals will support other libs, no matter how corrupt, sleazy, or vile they are as long as they're politically useful to the left. See Ted Kennedy, Barney Frank, John Murtha, and Robert Byrd for examples of that. In other words, as Margaret Thatcher has said of the Left, "For them, the end always seems to justify the means."

5) Liberals believe merely being liberal makes them good people. Liberals who're obsessed with money think they're compassionate because they give away other people's tax dollars. They believe they care more about the earth than other people, even as they fly around in private jets, because they babble on about global warming. They can be dumb as a rock, but believe they're smarter than most other people because they're liberals. In other words, in the minds of most liberals, liberalism is an all-purpose substitute for actual virtue instead of just another political philosophy.

6) Liberals have too much faith in government. Even most liberals would admit that government regularly fails the people. If you don't believe that, just ask them about the Bush Administration and they'll give you an earful. However, liberals tend to believe that with the right person in charge, government won't be so slow, stupid, inefficient, and badly run. Human history proves that they're wrong about that.

7) Liberals have minimal interest in whether the programs they support work or not. To most liberals, whether a government program betters people's lives is completely irrelevant to whether they'll support it. A program that doesn't work and costs billions, but sounds compassionate and helps Democrats politically is a huge success in the eyes of the Left. Once you understand that liberals think this way, their baffling support for programs that make no "common sense" is much easier to understand.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 04:27:07 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BSB

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Re: The Chavez Meltdown!
« Reply #74 on: February 02, 2010, 06:09:51 AM »
If you've ever dealt with some little asshole, get a lifer, take out your problems on the world, sadistic, officious, pointy headed, pencil necked, four eyed, ignorant, bureaucrat, down at the local RMV, you've experienced communism in all its glory. Ain't it grand?