DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Knutey on September 24, 2008, 07:00:29 PM
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MSNBC.com
Obama rejects McCain call to delay debate
Republican plans to return to Washington to help deal with credit crisis
BREAKING NEWS
MSNBC and NBC News
updated 2:36 p.m. PT, Wed., Sept. 24, 2008
Democratic Sen. Barack Obama rejected Republican Sen. John McCain’s dramatic call Wednesday to delay Friday’s presidential debate because of the economic crisis.
“This is exactly the time when the American people need to hear from the person who in approximately 40 days will be responsible for dealing with this mess,” Obama told reporters in Clearwater, Fla.
Obama agreed with McCain on the need for the two men to issue a joint statement of support for legislation to rescue the banking industry, but he declined McCain’s call to postpone the first debate, scheduled for Friday in Oxford, Miss.
“In my mind, it’s more important than ever that we present ourselves to the American people and describe where we want to take the country and where we want to take the economy,” he said.
McCain said earlier in the day in New York that he would suspend his campaign and return to Washington to work on banking legislation, saying President Bush’s proposed $700 billion appeared unlikely to pass.
Obama stopped short of following his model, saying he had told congressional leaders that he was willing to help out, but only if they thought it would be useful.
As for the debate, he said, “It’s going to be part of the president’s job to be able to deal with more than one thing at once.”
The Commission on Presidential Debates and the University of Mississippi, the scheduled host of Friday’s debate, said they expected the debate to go forward. They did not say what they would do if McCain failed to show up.
Obama camp sees political ploy
Obama said he and McCain discussed the economy in two telephone calls earlier Wednesday. Obama said it was he who proposed issuing a joint statement on the bailout plan.
He indicated that McCain’s statement seeking to delay the debate came as a surprise, saying McCain had told him in their second call only that he was thinking through the idea.
“I guess he was further along than I thought,” Obama said.
Aides to Obama characterized McCain’s proposal as a ploy to distract attention from his standing in the polls, which has fallen sharply in the last few days as Americans focus on the economic crisis on Wall Street.
A senior aide to Obama said McCain would have been better advised to have made his proposal several days ago. The aide said the only thing that had changed was McCain’s poll numbers.
Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., a close adviser to Obama, called the idea “the longest Hail Mary pass in the history of either football or Marys.”
But Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, welcomed MCCain’s offer.
“This is the John McCain I know,” Hatch said in an interview on MSNBC’s “Hardball.” “He is willing to risk election to do what’s right for the country.”
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., meanwhile, said McCain’s and Obama’s presence during congressional negotiations over a rescue package would “not be helpful at this time,” saying they would be a distraction.
“We need leadership, not a campaign photo op,” Reid said. “If there were ever a time for both candidates to hold a debate before the American people about this serious challenge, it is now.”
White House press secretary Dana Perino, however, said the Bush administration welcomed McCain’s announcement, adding, “Bipartisan support from Senators McCain and Obama would be helpful in driving to a conclusion.”
McCain to suspend campaign
McCain said he would suspend his campaign after he addressed former President Bill Clinton’s Global Initiative gathering Thursday. A
dvisers said they were also reaching out to the Obama campaign to discuss pulling political television advertisements from airing.
Aides denied that the proposal was a political move. They said McCain hoped to create a “political free zone” until a deal to rescue the the financial industry could be reached.
Mark Salter, a senior adviser, held out the possibility that McCain could yet take take in Friday’s debate if congressional negotiators worked out a bank agreement by Friday morning. But he said McCain had been convinced in conversations Tuesday and Wednesday with colleagues on Capitol Hill that passage was next to impossible.
In his statement, McCain said it had become clear that “no consensus has developed to support the administration’s proposal.” He called on Bush to convene a leadership meeting in Washington that would include him and Obama.
McCain said that if Congress did not pass legislation to address the crisis, credit would dry up, people would no longer be able to buy homes, life savings would be at stake and businesses would not have enough money
“If we do not act, every corner of our country will be impacted,” McCain said. “We cannot allow this to happen.”
By Alex Johnson of msnbc.com with David Gregory, Andrea Mitchell, Kelly O’Donnell, Chuck Todd and Mike Viqueira of NBC News and Chris Matthews of MSNBC.
© 2008 MSNBC Interactive
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26872907/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26872907/)
M
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Well, Knutey, you had more faith than I did. But I'm delighted Obama did not fall for it. Insane must be desperate at this point. Probably climbing the walls when he heard Obama wasn't going along. That was probably his last chance.
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Well, Knutey, you had more faith than I did. But I'm delighted Obama did not fall for it. Insane must be desperate at this point. Probably climbing the walls when he heard Obama wasn't going along. That was probably his last chance.
He is going to look even worse when he relents and debates. It will prove that high blown rhetoric was what it was: bullshit
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I almost feel sorry for the guy. Till I remember what he did to the children and women of Viet Nam.
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I think it was a brilliant move on McCain's part.
I'll let you guys worry about why.
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I think it was a brilliant move on McCain's part.
I'll let you guys worry about why.
Youre the guy that thought it was brilliant to go into Iraq. I am not the least bit worried.
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Then don't worry.
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I think it was a brilliant move on McCain's part.
I'll let you guys worry about why.
The days of Strategy winning over Substance are over.
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The days of Strategy winning over Substance are over.
Then the GOP also has nothing to worry about.
Damn you walked right into that one!
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;D
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The days of Strategy winning over Substance are over.
Then the GOP also has nothing to worry about.
Damn you walked right into that one!
Pfffft.
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<<Then the GOP also has nothing to worry about.
<<Damn you walked right into that one!>>
You're assuming (incorrectly, as usual) that there was something for Brass to walk into. Sorry 'bout that.
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You're assuming (incorrectly, as usual) that there was something for Brass to walk into. Sorry 'bout that.
Where is the substance in blank slate Obama.
Where substance in his make up homeworks on economic policy where he basically copied Dodd and Pelosi's notes and threw in his platform( not to implemented now of course) to boot.
One day before he announced his plan he was promising to cut spending. WHere is the substance in that.
Brass knows his guy is smoke and mirrors. He just thinks in this day of superficiality that is all it will take.
Sadly he may be right.
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When you come down to it, the government cannot fight the Iraq War, bailout the mortgage mess and grant tax cuts without printing money and causing inflation. If it does that, then the interest rate on all that money borrowed from the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans rises accordingly and suddenly we have major inflation everywhere, with Colombians buying a new Jeep for three sacks of coffee.
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When you come down to it, the government cannot fight the Iraq War, bailout the mortgage mess and grant tax cuts without printing money and causing inflation. If it does that, then the interest rate on all that money borrowed from the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans rises accordingly and suddenly we have major inflation everywhere, with Colombians buying a new Jeep for three sacks of coffee.
There goes Obama's middle class tax cut.
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When you come down to it, the government cannot fight the Iraq War, bailout the mortgage mess and grant tax cuts without printing money and causing inflation. If it does that, then the interest rate on all that money borrowed from the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans rises accordingly and suddenly we have major inflation everywhere, with Colombians buying a new Jeep for three sacks of coffee.
There goes Obama's middle class tax cut.
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Not only that, but the extension of Juniorbush's fatcat tax cut if McCain is elected. Its' either that or the value of the dollar plummets, and we'll have that $20 a gallon gasoline and $4.00 a loaf bread by 2011 or so.
If they choose inflation, then everyone who deals in dollars will take part of the hit, and they can blame the foreigners as well, so I would imagine this is what they will be doing.
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<<Where is the substance in blank slate Obama.>>
Where does "blank slate" really come from? We know his academic record. We know he chose to come to Chicago to work as a community organizer rather than take a job with a six-figure salary which is always waiting for any former editor of a law school review, even a black one. Maybe even, especially a black one. And we know that the people he worked with as an organizer had the highest possible opinion of him.
So I would say, on this "blank slate," I read: extraordinary intelligence, diligence, hard work, ability to manage people, ability to organize communities, interact with government and a concern for and desire to uplift those NOT blessed with wealth or social advantage. To fight for them, to give them a better life. I read, on this 'blank slate," excellent analytical and problem-solving skills. I see and hear with my own eyes and ears, excellent oratorical and persuasive skills. And most important of all, I see on this blank slate WISDOM, and JUDGMENT in his opposition, against the main current, to the quagmire of the Iraq War, which so many politicians, almost all of them, on both sides of the Congressional aisle, endorsed either out of dull, sheep-like obeisance or, knowing it was wrong, out of cowardice, out of fear of being labeled "unpatriotic."
So spare me the "blank slate" bullshit. Please. I know about as much about him as you do and it's enough. He is no "blank slate."
<<Where substance in his make up homeworks on economic policy where he basically copied Dodd and Pelosi's notes and threw in his platform( not to implemented now of course) to boot.>>
Honest to God, I don't know what the hell you are talking about. I don't know enough about the subject to determine if he copied Dodd's and Pelosi's work or not, but what the hell difference would it make if he did? Is it not possible he reviewed other plans before he formulated one he could endorse? What is the point of reinventing the wheel? This was a problem that required a solution, not an academic test of his own knowledge. People want to know where he stands. Of course he would try to avoid reinventing the wheel. He looks at Pelosi's and Dodd's work, and if it made sense, he endorses and/or adopts it. This isn't creative literature where each artist's work has to be unique. There may only be one solution to the problem, and if there is, should he endorse a plan that doesn't contain the correct solution just to appear original? You are not making any sense at all. Your objection here is totally spurious, of no merit whatsoever. It's ridiculous.
<<One day before he announced his plan he was promising to cut spending. WHere is the substance in that.>>
Cutting spending is a legitimate goal. When he finally had a plan he could endorse, perhaps it made cutting spending more difficult, perhaps not. Where is your evidence that the plan and the spending cuts are mutually exclusive?
<<Brass knows his guy is smoke and mirrors. He just thinks in this day of superficiality that is all it will take.>>
"Smoke and mirrors" I would think is what it takes to make Insane look "Presidential." His criminality brushed under the table, his advisers' and managers' intimate connections to corporate wrongdoers and frauds airbrushed away, his fucking God-damned stupidity played down, never mentioned, just like his vile and profane outbursts, his "heroism" played up to the max, including his phony "torture" stories - - you want smoke and mirrors? see John Insane, he's got smoke, he's got mirrors.
Sadly he may be right.
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Where does "blank slate" really come from?
It comes from Obama himself. Or is he a liar?
Even after two autobiographies, Mr. Obama remains something of a floating, uncrowded presence. His story (and he is so impressively self-aware as to have made the most acute comment on it) is temptingly open-ended, very much a page to be written on. He himself has written, most memorably: "I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views."
http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=7607.msg77675#msg77675 (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=7607.msg77675#msg77675)
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Where does "blank slate" really come from?
It comes from Obama himself. Or is he a liar?
Even after two autobiographies, Mr. Obama remains something of a floating, uncrowded presence. His story (and he is so impressively self-aware as to have made the most acute comment on it) is temptingly open-ended, very much a page to be written on. He himself has written, most memorably: "I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views."
OMG! You are such a fucken genius !
http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=7607.msg77675#msg77675 (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=7607.msg77675#msg77675)
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I guess maybe we should define "blank slate" because it definitely has been used in at least two different ways.
I agree that Obama is often a "blank screen" on which people project their own wishes. Clinton was a blank screen in that way too. I took his avoidance of the draft and association with Lani Guinier as evidence of a left-wing tendency that really never got to manifest itself, that he moved away from. And I would say that in that sense "blank screen" is probably more useful than "blank slate" because of the projection phenomenon.
The other sense in which I hear "blank slate" is that it's a slate with nothing written on it, so we don't know who this guy is, he's left no record. Nobody wrote on his slate. The inference there is that more facts are needed, I want to know how old is he, has he a family, where is he from? etc.
If you meant "blank screen" I would have agreed that he was in fact something of a blank screen, but in context, I think "blank slate" (i.e., more background facts needed) was what you meant.
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If he is projecting a blank screen by design, the contents of the slate are immaterial also by design.
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<<If he is projecting a blank screen by design, the contents of the slate are immaterial also by design.>>
I don't agree. I still need the contents of the slate to see what it's feasible to project onto the screen. It might not guarantee that I'll get the elected official that I projected, but at least it'll tell me what I shouldn't bother even to project.
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<<If he is projecting a blank screen by design, the contents of the slate are immaterial also by design.>>
I don't agree. I still need the contents of the slate to see what it's feasible to project onto the screen. It might not guarantee that I'll get the elected official that I projected, but at least it'll tell me what I shouldn't bother even to project.
It is in any way , an amazeing leap of faith.
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<<It is in any way , an amazeing leap of faith.>>
Not when you consider that I already know the other guy to be pure evil, a murderer of helpless women and children, a liar and an adulterer, a scumbag and a virtual moron.
Not when you consider I already know the "blank screen" has an impressive academic record, fantastic judgment and political courage and chose to work as a Chicago community organizer when he could have found a prestigious job paying six-digit salary fresh out of law school. AND is a wonderful husband and father.
It's not much of a leap at all. I call it a no-brainer, and I think you'll be amazed at how many Americans do as well. You're gonna see a landslide.
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<<It is in any way , an amazeing leap of faith.>>
Not when you consider that I already know the other guy to be pure evil, a murderer of helpless women and children, a liar and an adulterer, a scumbag and a virtual moron.
Not when you consider I already know the "blank screen" has an impressive academic record, fantastic judgment and political courage and chose to work as a Chicago community organizer when he could have found a prestigious job paying six-digit salary fresh out of law school. AND is a wonderful husband and father.
It's not much of a leap at all. I call it a no-brainer, and I think you'll be amazed at how many Americans do as well. You're gonna see a landslide.
Did you feel this way about the RAF pilots of the Battle of Britian? or the firestorm of Hamburg?
You have got noevidence that John McCain ever bombed anything but legitamate targets , or that he had any right as a pilot to pick and choose his targets.
Americans do not generally share your deep hatred of the US military .If I recall correctly your deep hatred has deepened a lot since John Kerry was a canadate and you considered him a better canadate than George Bush ,whose military service didn't include actually shooting any Vietnameese as John Kerry's did.
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<<Did you feel this way about the RAF pilots of the Battle of Britian? or the firestorm of Hamburg?>>
Why? Suddenly it's a crime to kill Nazis? I didn't realize.
<<You have got noevidence that John McCain ever bombed anything but legitamate targets , >>
Bullshit. There were no legitimate targets in Viet Nam because the U.S. had no legitimate right to be there in the first place. That they go there illegally and then think they have some right to pick which targets are legitimate and which are not is totally ludicrous. If all their targets were "legitimate," how did half a million Vietnamese children get killed?
<<or that he had any right as a pilot to pick and choose his targets.>>
He had no right to be in Viet Nam.
<<Americans do not generally share your deep hatred of the US military .If I recall correctly your deep hatred has deepened a lot since John Kerry was a canadate and you considered him a better canadate than George Bush ,whose military service didn't include actually shooting any Vietnameese as John Kerry's did.>>
John Kerry was a war criminal but at least he was a repentant war criminal. He threw back all his medals. He denounced the war crimes and the atrocities and crimes against humanity of the American military. He did what he could to stop the on-going slaughter. That took real courage. All the fascists and militarists and racists of Amerikkka still hate his guts because of his stand against war and fascism, because he exposed their crimes and atrocities.
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I don't agree. I still need the contents of the slate to see what it's feasible to project onto the screen. It might not guarantee that I'll get the elected official that I projected, but at least it'll tell me what I shouldn't bother even to project.
I think he was fairly explicit in his statement. He is a blank screen for people to project their own views.
No need to muddy the vision with his own views. He is all things to all people.
By design.
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John Kerry was a war criminal but at least he was a repentant war criminal. He threw back all his medals. He denounced the war crimes and the atrocities and crimes against humanity of the American military. He did what he could to stop the on-going slaughter. That took real courage. All the fascists and militarists and racists of Amerikkka still hate his guts because of his stand against war and fascism, because he exposed their crimes and atrocities.
This is the reason that stepping up to the podium and saluteing "reporting for duty" and pointing at a collection of decorations , didn't work for him.
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<<This is the reason that stepping up to the podium and saluteing "reporting for duty" and pointing at a collection of decorations , didn't work for him.>>
Pretty cheezy, huh? He's not the only one of my Sixties and Seventies heroes who had their finest moment back in the day, and then later embarrassed themselves (and me!) in later life. Jerry Rubin, Jane Fonda (apologizing to vets for calling them war criminals) and yes, John Kerrey. They sold out in one way or another as time marched on.
Which is why I'm such a fan of Bill Ayers. He never repented, he's still a radical and he's working effectively within the system. And he's married to Bernardine Dohrn. He's the man.
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Not when you consider I already know the "blank screen" has an impressive academic record, fantastic judgment and political courage and chose to work as a Chicago community organizer when he could have found a prestigious job paying six-digit salary fresh out of law school.
Then you don't know much about your guy at all.
He quit community organizing to go to law school, because that was the path to power.
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Ah, you are right. He apparently came to community organizing from Columbia to some jobs in New York to Chicago to community organize and then to law school.
Still, same principle - - a Columbia University grad could probably have earned more in the corporate world than he could as a community organizer.
And I'm still correct in that the people he worked with in community organizing thought the world of him.
He did a lot more for society's underclass than Bush and Cheney combined. Those selfish greedheads never gave them a thought, neither did McCain or Palin. Compared to the whole Republican pantheon, he's Mother Teresa.
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You think Mother Theresa would make a good President, if she were still alive , that is?
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<<You think Mother Theresa would make a good President, if she were still alive , that is?>>
How could a Catholic be a good President? Wouldn't she take her orders from the Pope? But why ask me? Why not go to McCain's former pastor friend, Rev. Hagee? He'll tell ya all about Catholics and he's a solid Republican too.
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How could a Catholic be a good President?
So Kennedy wasn't a good president?
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<<So Kennedy wasn't a good president?>>
I forgot. You don't get irony. Sorry 'bout that.
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Not when you consider I already know the "blank screen" has an impressive academic record, fantastic judgment and political courage and chose to work as a Chicago community organizer when he could have found a prestigious job paying six-digit salary fresh out of law school.
Then you don't know much about your guy at all.
He quit community organizing to go to law school, because that was the path to power.
Um, my understanding is that he went to community organizing from law school.
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Obama is the first African American to be nominated by a major political party for president.[1] A graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, where he served as president of the Harvard Law Review, Obama worked as a community organizer and practiced as a civil rights attorney before serving in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004. He taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School from 1992 to 2004. Following an unsuccessful bid for a seat in the U.S. House of Representatives in 2000, he announced his campaign for the U.S. Senate in January 2003. After a primary victory in March 2004, Obama delivered the keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in July 2004. He was elected to the Senate in November 2004 with 70% of the vote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barak_Obama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barak_Obama)
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Um, my understanding is that he went to community organizing from law school.
"Then you don't know much about your guy at all."
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After graduating from Columbia University in 1983 with a major in political science, Obama worked as a financial consultant in New York City. But he was bored?and drawn to public service. In 1985, he moved to Chicago to work with local churches organizing job training and other programs for poor and working-class residents of Altgeld Gardens, a public housing project where 5,300 African-Americans tried to survive amid shuttered steel mills, a nearby landfill, a putrid sewage treatment plant, and a pervasive feeling that the white establishment of Chicago would never give them a fair shake.
Jerry Kellman, a social activist who recruited Obama, recalls, "He was very bright, very articulate, very personable, and very idealistic," inspired by civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr.'s philosophy of nonviolence. Kellman offered Obama a job at the annual salary of $10,000, and he threw in $2,000 so Obama could buy a ramshackle car to get around.
Obama was a stranger to the area but caught on quickly by showing humility and a strong work ethic. "We knew what was wrong in the community but we didn't know how to get something done about it," recalls Yvonne Lloyd, 78, who worked with Obama. Obama insisted on "staying in the background while he empowered us." By Obama's own admission, there were few big victories. But whether it was getting the city to fill potholes, provide summer jobs, or remove asbestos from the apartments or persuading the apartment managers to repair toilets, pipes, and ceilings, Obama encouraged residents to come up with their own priorities with the gentle admonition: "It's your community."
Newcomer. David Kindler, a colleague at the time, said the lanky newcomer with the funny name understood that a community organizer is a combination of educator, confessor-priest, social activist, motivational expert, mediator, and campaign leader. To accomplish his mission, Obama spent hours with Altgeld residents one on one, learning their problems and their dreams, and he resisted taking credit for success, preferring to give it to individuals in the community.
Obama lived a few miles away in a modest Hyde Park apartment, but he quickly became part of "the Gardens" community. He played pickup basketball. He walked from house to house to discuss what needed fixing. Wearing his trademark outfit of neatly pressed slacks and button-down shirts with no tie, he spent many hours meeting in kitchens, parlors, and churches.
Many of the older women took a liking to him. They fed him cookies, invited him for dinner, and introduced him to their friends?and their marriage-minded daughters. "I called him my little skinny boy," says Lloyd. "He was so thin, we wanted to fatten him up, but we couldn't do it."
Some critics say that if he wins the presidency, the partisan divisions and rancor of Washington would quickly overwhelm him. But his wife, also a lawyer, says Altgeld gave him the skills to bring Washington's warring factions together. "Barack is not one of those people who fight for the sake of fighting," says Michelle Obama. He's "willing to do it when it's necessary," but he knows "you have to keep the door open" to deal with the other side.
Perhaps his most confrontational effort was to pressure city authorities to remove asbestos from the apartments in 1986. When the on-site manager didn't take action, Obama nudged the residents into confronting city housing officials in two angry public meetings downtown. These generated "a victory of sorts," Obama said later, as workers soon began sealing the asbestos in the buildings. But the project gradually ran out of steam and money. In fact, some tenants still have asbestos in their homes, according to current resident Linda Randle, 53, who worked with Obama in the '86 anti-asbestos campaign.
Faced with such frustrations, after three years in Chicago, Obama decided to apply his skills in the wider world. He entered Harvard Law School in 1988, became the first African-American president of Harvard Law Review in 1990, and earned his law degree in 1991. He returned to Chicago to work as a civil rights lawyer and teach at the University of Chicago Law School. He eventually won a seat in the Illinois State Senate and was elected to the U.S. Senate in 2004.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070826/3obama.htm (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070826/3obama.htm)
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Faced with such frustrations, after three years in Chicago, Obama decided to apply his skills in the wider world. He entered Harvard Law School in 1988, became the first African-American president of Harvard Law Review in 1990, and earned his law degree in 1991. He returned to Chicago to work as a civil rights lawyer and teach at the University of Chicago Law School. He eventually won a seat in the Illinois State Senate and was elected to the U.S. Senate in 2004.
Ah, I see how I got it confused. He was a community organizer prior to going to Harvard Law. My mistake.
I got it confused with the fact that after going to Harvard Law, he didn't go to Wall Street but instead returned to Chicago to work as a civil rights lawyer and to teach.
I didn't have the facts straight but he did devote himself to his community rather than selling out, making a shitpot of money and then assuaging his guilt by tithing every week.
My bad.
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"...But whether it was getting the city to fill potholes,..."
He actually got potholes filled ?
In run down neighborhoods of a big city?
I have to say , that is impressive , I know of some pot holes in Macon older than I am.
This little essay gives me a better idea of what his job as a Community Organiser was like , and it doesn't look bad .
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I didn't have the facts straight but he did devote himself to his community rather than selling out, making a shitpot of money and then assuaging his guilt by tithing every week.
He worked in the civil rights division of a law firm. The same law firm whose biggest client was Commonweath Edison, whose president emeritus was Thomas Ayers, father of Mikey's hero William Ayers of Weatherman fame.
I doubt Obama was bringing home public defender wages. And the connections at the firm got him that professorship at the University of Chicago.