DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Michael Tee on September 24, 2008, 04:55:40 PM
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The latest McCain stunt is proof positive and unmistakable that all their dirty tricks, their lies, their smears, their evasions, have failed and failed utterly.
John Insane's proposal to avoid the scheduled debate "to work on the financial crisis" smacks of desperation and panic in a way that I've never seen in any Presidential campaign in my life. Probably a combination of Sarah Palin plus "the fundamentals are strong" has the senile criminal bastard on the ropes and his private polling and maybe the panicked and frantic demands of party bosses are now demanding a time out. They KNOW how these debates are going to turn out.
I've followed Presidential campaigns since the 1952 "I Like Ike" one and honestly this is the first time I've seen one in such a state of free-fall that the candidate is already baling. But I'm agonizing over the possibility that Obama may fall for it.
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Michael- I dont think Big O will fall for it. HE can walk & chew gum at the same time unlike the RW Repug loonies like McSameastheBushidiot
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But I'm agonizing over the possibility that Obama may fall for it.
Well, it IS a stunt. McCain does not need to do the heavy lifting on this one. But if he refuses to debate, Obama has little choice but to agree, and should also head for DC as well.
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But I'm agonizing over the possibility that Obama may fall for it.
Well, it IS a stunt. McCain does not need to do the heavy lifting on this one. But if he refuses to debate, Obama has little choice but to agree, and should also head for DC as well.
He should only go to DC if they are going to hold the vot at EXACTLY the same time as the debate. Now THAT would prove Repug chicanery
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080924/ap_on_el_pr/mccain;_ylt=AvIbD47gnU2nXc20cWxysSWs0NUE (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080924/ap_on_el_pr/mccain;_ylt=AvIbD47gnU2nXc20cWxysSWs0NUE)
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This from the folks who pissed and moaned that Bush didn't get to Louisiana soon enough.
::)
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First, I don't think that McCain is a "senile criminal bastard." All in all I think he's a decent bloke, especially considering what we've had for seven years. I think you're being unfair there.
Second, you're right. This is really, really strange. For one the host sites for these debates work pretty hard to get them prepared. Two, if you're deeply affected by the financial crisis today - you won't likely be better in a week or so. Three, if you aren't affected - you won't likely be in a week or so (other than watching Congress & Bush spend more money they do not have).
But what is most strange is that this is McCain's appeal. He's holding his own with Obama specifically because he's the guy with foreign policy experience. When you've just let the other team score a touchdown in the third quarter, you don't refuse to play offense.
My guess is that McCain knows Obama won't bail on the debate. Therefore he plays the role of the mediator who "cares about the voter" and "works with the other side." And he lowers expectations for the debate considerably (a W trick that plays well with the media). The risk is that he looks like a pansy to the public, but he's got white male votes for the most part so I think it is a risk he can take.
It is all a bit of chess.
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This from the folks who pissed and moaned that Bush didn't get to Louisiana soon enough.
Yeah, and Juniorbush was president.And his horse salesman FEMA director was out to lunch.
The busk stpops with the president.
McCain isn't secretary of the treasury or Commerce. Perhaps his vote might be needed, but his expertise in this field is nonexistent and therefore unnecessary.
The buck does not stop with the senator from Arizona.
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<<This from the folks who pissed and moaned that Bush didn't get to Louisiana soon enough.>>
The difference, obviously, is that Bush was elected to the office of President of the United States of America and had the Constitutional responsibility for dealing with the problems of the nation.
NOBODY elected either Obama or Insane to deal with the problem of the economy. Presumably the Constitutional government is still in place and still functioning, isn't it?
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<<But if he refuses to debate, Obama has little choice but to agree, and should also head for DC as well.>>
Here's one tactic for Obama to consider if Insane refuses to debate. Maybe there's a better one, but I'd like him to consider this.
1. Don't go to DC with Insane or do anything that could be taken as legitimizing or validating what Insane's doing.
2. Hit every venue and attack, attack, attack. (1) - attack George Bush and his do-nothing administration and the Cabinet - - where are their plans, why does Insane have to pretend that HE'S gonna fix the problem when they are the ones responsible for it?
(2) - attack Insane and his contempt both for the voters (debating would have given them a clearer idea of who to vote for) and for the Constitution of the United States and its duly elected leaders - - what makes him think that HE has to supplant Constitutional government to solve a problem (a) that he didn't even recognize as a problem and (b) that nobody asked him to solve?
3. Emphasize again and again that Insane is RUNNING and HIDING. Using pathetic, lame excuses (see above) to do so. And engage in mock debates with Insane, maybe even use the "empty chair" technique. My client believes X and Y and Z. Had he shown the courage [keep attacking Insane's "courage," which eats away at one of the few remnants of political credit he has, his phony "torture" story] to debate me here instead of running away to hide, I would have told him [here he restates his, Obama's foreign policy, as forcefully as possible.
4. This act of panic and cowardice is actually a GODSEND for Obama, but I believe he has to work at this 24/7 during McCain's absence, so he seems to be fully energized and in full attack mode.
5. Immediatelly - - starting NOW - - have his staff refine the existing Obama plan, expand, enlarge and break it up into numbered chapters. Cover as broad an area as possible, so that whatever Insane comes up with can be described as just a copy of some part of Obama's Plan. Just don't call it the Obama Plan, or Obama's plan or anything to indicate that Obama was copying Insane's idea of holing up somewhere to produce a plan. Remember, that was a STUNT. Call it The Democratic Policy Committee's Economic Blueprint, so it sounds like it has nothing to do with Obama.
6. When the Insane plan comes out, ridicule it as a cheap copy of the Democratic Policy Committee's Economic Blueprint, citing chapter and verse. "The guy holed up for four whole days and came up with a cheap knock-off of the Democratic Policy Committee's Economic Blueprint, Section III ? That's pathetic."
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>>My guess is that McCain knows Obama won't bail on the debate.<<
Given his track record there's nothing to indicate he wouldn't. This isn't going well for Barry. He's stepping in it again.
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Given his track record there's nothing to indicate he wouldn't. This isn't going well for Barry. He's stepping in it again.
What are you blathering about?
McCain is the one doing the stepping. If were wearing white spats when he started, they are brown now.
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This is where the curtain comes off the Wizard's door and the Great Foreign Policy Experienced Master is seen by the public as just a frightened old man who's afraid to debate on what he previously claimed was his strong suit.
I think he made a smart move, though, because he assessed that the game was lost if he continued playing to the end. The only thing was to strike out on a different path, shuffle the cards again in the middle of the game and see what would happen. A desperate situation calls for a desperate move. Insane is a tough, wily and resourceful fighter. Part of the test of Obama's mettle is how well he can deal with these sudden curve balls thrown by Insane when they are least expected I gave one possible course of action, wonder if there are others.
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It's funny how wrong these people are. McCain is doing the right thing for America, and all these leftists can do is play politics and throw around insults.
Oh well, that to is best for America.
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McCain is doing the right thing for America, and all these leftists can do is play politics and throw around insults.
McCain is somehow needed as a financial expert?
The country needs him to turn tail and flee from the debate he agreed to?
He is the one playing politics here.
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<<McCain is doing the right thing for America, and all these leftists can do is play politics and throw around insults.>>
Naaaah. Not in a million years. McCain is doing the right thing for McCain. The wheels have come off his campaign bus and he's running for cover. But don't give up yet. He might still out-fox Obama. Sometimes brains won't save ya, if ya don't have guts as well. Here, we're gonna see what Obama's made of. How will he respond to McCain's inspired manoeuvre?
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>>McCain is somehow needed as a financial expert?<<
Is that what you think? I'll try and help you out here. McCain is a US Senator. He will be required to vote on this pending bailout. That's why he's going to go back to Congress and help work out a plan that is best for America.
I hope that helps.
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McCain is doing the right thing for America, and all these leftists can do is play politics and throw around insults.
McCain is somehow needed as a financial expert?
The country needs him to turn tail and flee from the debate he agreed to?
He is the one playing politics here.
This McSameasbush stunt is worse than Big O standing behind the Presidential Seal . McCain is the real preposterous presumer.
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<<I'll try and help you out here. McCain is a US Senator. He will be required to vote on this pending bailout. That's why he's going to go back to Congress and help work out a plan that is best for America.>>
Lame, Rich, very lame. Insane and Obama are the only two U.S. Senators running for President. Insane in particular has already confessed to a very limited understanding of economics. He was never prominently involved in any Senate economic legislation. To claim that HIS input is now so desperately needed in Washington on this issue that he has to back out of a scheduled Presidential candidates' debate on U.S. foreign policy is, simply, unbelievable.
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Speaking of lame.
::)
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<<I'll try and help you out here. McCain is a US Senator. He will be required to vote on this pending bailout. That's why he's going to go back to Congress and help work out a plan that is best for America.>>
Lame, Rich, very lame. Insane and Obama are the only two U.S. Senators running for President. Insane in particular has already confessed to a very limited understanding of economics. He was never prominently involved in any Senate economic legislation. To claim that HIS input is now so desperately needed in Washington on this issue that he has to back out of a scheduled Presidential candidates' debate on U.S. foreign policy is, simply, unbelievable.
What it really shows is that McCain IS truly out of touch with the economy just as bad as Palin is out of touch with anything. It shows he needs to go back to DC to be "brought up to speed". Obama is already up to speed.
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<<Speaking of lame.>>
Yes, Rich, I WAS speaking of lame. Saying that your explanation of why Insane has to return to Washington immediately to work on a bail-out solution, given his (self-admittedly) meagre economic understanding, his lack of any major economic function in the Senate to date, and his responsibilities as a candidate for the Presidency of the U.S.A., was an incredibly LAME explanation.
Were you also speaking of lame? Funny, I don't recall that. In what connection?
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If all McCain needs to do is to vote on the bill, then McCain and Obama can jet back to DC. vote on the bill, and maybe hold the debate there.
No postponement is necessary
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>>Saying that your explanation of why Insane has to return to Washington immediately to work on a bail-out solution, given his (self-admittedly) meagre economic understanding...<<
Right. A senior Senator should just sit this one out because some Canadian doesn't think he knows enough about the subject.
Country First.
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<<This from the folks who pissed and moaned that Bush didn't get to Louisiana soon enough.>>
The difference, obviously, is that Bush was elected to the office of President of the United States of America and had the Constitutional responsibility for dealing with the problems of the nation.
NOBODY elected either Obama or Insane to deal with the problem of the economy. Presumably the Constitutional government is still in place and still functioning, isn't it?
Three of our Presidential canadates are Senators and one is a Govenor.
Yes they were elected to work on the problems of the nation and their constituants , should they really be free of these dutys for the duration for the campaign no matter what is going on?
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<<Yes they were elected to work on the problems of the nation and their constituants , should they really be free of these dutys for the duration for the campaign no matter what is going on?>>
Give Biden the week off. Seriously, neither Obama nor McCain were ever prominent in formulating the economic legislation of the Senate. Others are much more qualified than they to work on these things, usually the legislation comes out of Committees which Obama and McCain aren't members of. So practically speaking there isn't a hell of a lot for them to do.
OTOH, the country is going to be going to the polls shortly. If you think it's important for the voters to be able to make an informed choice, then as candidates they have an obligation to put their views forward to the voters any way they can, and give the voters some kind of idea as to their character and capabilty. Traditionally, the debates have played a big role in the process.
Given the relative importance of the election and the principle of democracy, I think it's much more important that for the sake of providing the voters with an opportunity to make an informed choice, that the other 98 Senators make do with the absence of two of their number, particularly these two, who don't have a hell of a lot of economic expertise to offer anyway.
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<<Yes they were elected to work on the problems of the nation and their constituants , should they really be free of these dutys for the duration for the campaign no matter what is going on?>>
Give Biden the week off. Seriously, neither Obama nor McCain were ever prominent in formulating the economic legislation of the Senate. Others are much more qualified than they to work on these things, usually the legislation comes out of Committees which Obama and McCain aren't members of. So practically speaking there isn't a hell of a lot for them to do.
OTOH, the country is going to be going to the polls shortly. If you think it's important for the voters to be able to make an informed choice, then as candidates they have an obligation to put their views forward to the voters any way they can, and give the voters some kind of idea as to their character and capabilty. Traditionally, the debates have played a big role in the process.
Given the relative importance of the election and the principle of democracy, I think it's much more important that for the sake of providing the voters with an opportunity to make an informed choice, that the other 98 Senators make do with the absence of two of their number, particularly these two, who don't have a hell of a lot of economic expertise to offer anyway.
You are actually confident that BHO would have no insight or ideas worthy of contributeing to the bill?
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<<You are actually confident that BHO would have no insight or ideas worthy of contributeing to the bill?>>
Oh, sure, because I know he can multi-task - - participate in the debates AND add his two cents' worth to the bill.
It's McCain that I believe has nothing positive to contribute. He'd probably still want to get some protection in there for his fat-cat pals, so it's probably just as well that he CAN'T multi-task. The debates will keep him from any further mischief in Washington.
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<<You are actually confident that BHO would have no insight or ideas worthy of contributeing to the bill?>>
Oh, sure, because I know he can multi-task - - participate in the debates AND add his two cents' worth to the bill.
It's McCain that I believe has nothing positive to contribute. He'd probably still want to get some protection in there for his fat-cat pals, so it's probably just as well that he CAN'T multi-task. The debates will keep him from any further mischief in Washington.
Your jab at fat cats is spurious .
But muilti tasking as mildly as this probly is a good point for BHO to make , and McCain probly does know that the campaign continues no matter what he is doing.
But if BHO is absent from an important vote , or two , so that he can keep a ribbon cutting appointment , ....
McCain will be back in the campaign with a new load of ammunition.
BHO already has a record of voteing "present" a lot , is this to preserve his political standing by not entangleing his blank screen with a history of standing up to be counted ? The time is past when he can get away with this , the bailout is lible to be the most important legislative event this year , and if it is bungled (quite likely ) it will be the biggest legislative event of the decade.
As a Senator , he can't escape his responsibility by voteng "present " certainly not by voteing "absent".
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Perhaps you are unaware of how they vote in the Congress. A senator who wants to vote FOR an item, but cannot appear to vote, calls another senator who will vote AGAINST, and they both agree that neither of them will vote. The net result is that the vote will be the same as it would have been had both been present to vote.
In any event, it would be entirely possible for both McCain and Obama to vote and still attend the debate.
This is just another McCain stunt.
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<<Your jab at fat cats is spurious .>>
Oh no it's not, you just wish it were.
<<But muilti tasking as mildly as this probly is a good point for BHO to make , and McCain probly does know that the campaign continues no matter what he is doing.>>
I'm not getting your point and in fact I'm not even sure I know what this means.
<<But if BHO is absent from an important vote , or two , so that he can keep a ribbon cutting appointment >>
That's ridiculous, but I see that XO has already answered it. Perfectly.
<<McCain will be back in the campaign with a new load of ammunition.>>
All of McCain's ammunition so far has been blanks, so I don't see why this would be any different. If I were McCain, I'd be a lot more concerned about ducking the other guy's ammo than about shooting off any at him.
<<BHO already has a record of voteing "present" a lot . . .>>
Is that why he's nine points ahead in the polls?
<< is this to preserve his political standing by not entangleing his blank screen with a history of standing up to be counted ? >>
I dunno. I thought maybe it's because he WAS present.
<<The time is past when he can get away with this , the bailout is lible to be the most important legislative event this year , and if it is bungled (quite likely ) it will be the biggest legislative event of the decade.>>
Obama's a multi-tasker, as I said, and a supremely able analyzer and thinker, with excellent judgment, much better than John ("the fundamentals are strong") McCain's. I'm not only confident that he'll make the right move, but that he'll do it AND whip McCain's ass if that little weasel ever musters the courage to show up.
<<As a Senator , he can't escape his responsibility by voteng "present " certainly not by voteing "absent".>>
Where was McCain's responsibility as a Senator when he swallowed Bush's lies hook, line and sinker and voted to plunge the nation into a $500 billion disaster?
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<<But muilti tasking as mildly as this probly is a good point for BHO to make , and McCain probly does know that the campaign continues no matter what he is doing.>>
I'm not getting your point and in fact I'm not even sure I know what this means.
This is because you are not accustomed to me saying you are right.
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Perhaps you are unaware of how they vote in the Congress. A senator who wants to vote FOR an item, but cannot appear to vote, calls another senator who will vote AGAINST, and they both agree that neither of them will vote. The net result is that the vote will be the same as it would have been had both been present to vote.
In any event, it would be entirely possible for both McCain and Obama to vote and still attend the debate.
This is just another McCain stunt.
On this issue?
I would hate to have to explain to my constituants this way , why I missed the vote of the year.
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Perhaps you are unaware of how they vote in the Congress. A senator who wants to vote FOR an item, but cannot appear to vote, calls another senator who will vote AGAINST, and they both agree that neither of them will vote. The net result is that the vote will be the same as it would have been had both been present to vote.
Must be how Democrats vote. I wouldn't trust the guy that wanted to vote against me to not show just on his word.
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<<This is because you are not accustomed to me saying you are right.>>
ROTFL. You're right. I was floored.
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<<Must be how Democrats vote. I wouldn't trust the guy that wanted to vote against me to not show just on his word.>>
Cross another legislator just once in your life on a deal like that and you'll never get another one. Works for both sides of the aisle. Works here too.
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Must be how Democrats vote. I wouldn't trust the guy that wanted to vote against me to not show just on his word.
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Everybody does this, and they do it all the time. If you fail to do as promised, no one will ever work with you again on anything ever again, not even members of your own party.
You will be shunned like an Amish who drove up in a Hummer chatting on his cellphone.
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Everybody does this, and they do it all the time.
Funny, I've seen plenty of vote tallies from Congress that show an odd number of absentee votes. Seems like they're not doing it consistently.
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Funny, I've seen plenty of vote tallies from Congress that show an odd number of absentee votes. Seems like they're not doing it consistently.
I would be surprised if they were. Not all votes are critical to all congresspeople. A bill on sugarbeet research might not be too critical to a senator from Rhode Island, where there are no sugarbeets (for example).
Maple syrup is not ever a likely issue for a senator from Mississippi, either.
Besides here is how it works. The positions of the Senate are known. 46 for, 54 against. Senator Smedley would vote for it, but he swallowed a golf ball and can't make it, so he calls up Senator Blowhard. Senator Blowhard is against it, so he agrees either not to vote or to vote present instead of 'nay'
Now the vote is 45 for, 53 against. If senator Blowhard abstains, it's 44 for, 54 against, 1 abstention. The bill is defeated as it would have been had Smedley not swallowed his golf ball.
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The latest McCain stunt is proof positive and unmistakable that all their dirty tricks, their lies, their smears, their evasions, have failed and failed utterly.
John Insane's proposal to avoid the scheduled debate "to work on the financial crisis" smacks of desperation and panic in a way that I've never seen in any Presidential campaign in my life. Probably a combination of Sarah Palin plus "the fundamentals are strong" has the senile criminal bastard on the ropes and his private polling and maybe the panicked and frantic demands of party bosses are now demanding a time out. They KNOW how these debates are going to turn out.
I've followed Presidential campaigns since the 1952 "I Like Ike" one and honestly this is the first time I've seen one in such a state of free-fall that the candidate is already baling. But I'm agonizing over the possibility that Obama may fall for it.
Third straight day Obama has lost ground in the Gallup poll. As they say, don't count your chickens....
PRINCETON, NJ -- John McCain has gained ground and is now tied with Barack Obama among registered voters in the latest Gallup Poll Daily tracking update for Sept. 22-24, with each candidate getting 46% support.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/110668/Gallup-Daily-Race-Back-Tie-46-Each.aspx (http://www.gallup.com/poll/110668/Gallup-Daily-Race-Back-Tie-46-Each.aspx)
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Does that mean the pom poms go on the bench, or is it the other sides turn to cheer:
We're Great
You Suck
Rah Rah Rah
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Does that mean the pom poms go on the bench, or is it the other sides turn to cheer:
We're Great
You Suck
Rah Rah Rah
That depends how the polls look at the end of the week.
I remain comfortable with my prediction McCain will win the election.
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Are you comfortable with a guy who says the Wall Street crisis is far too important to attend a debate, but who doesn't read the important bill, and then just sits there and says nothing in the meeting?
Why?
Is the sort of clown we need running the country?
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>>Are you comfortable with a guy who says the Wall Street crisis is far too important to attend a debate, but who doesn't read the important bill, and then just sits there and says nothing in the meeting?<<
Any idea if Barry read it?
I know you think you've scored a point here however, I recall hearing lots of pols admitting to not having read a propasol (it wasn't a bill at the time) at all, or just parts of it. Most rely on staffers to do the heavy reading and then giving them a summary of pieces of the bill they deem to be good or bad. I'm sure he's read it now anyway. when he was asked he hadn't seen it yet. So what? Also, I prefer a business partner who shuts up and listens before opening his mouth.