Author Topic: Contraception  (Read 9580 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2007, 06:45:31 PM »

Why do you need a reason, more than the opinions of some of the greatest theological minds in Christian history?


Because I'm a thinking person with my own mind. Saying this is the way it is because he said so just doesn't satisfy me. Onan was sent to his brother's widow to perform his cultural duty of giving her a child to raise as her dead husband's heir. Onan refused to inseminate her, and God killed him. The main reason I can discover for why Christian theologians have focused on the coitus interruptus and not the duty to impregnate the brother's widow is that culturally Christians were not engaged in the practice of taking care of widows in that fashion. Not even in the early church which was much more closely connected to Judaism than the church of today. And so I am left with the question of how much of the sexual morality lesson you've discussed is a result of culture and how much is theology.

Reading the related scriptures in several different versions, I see that Onan deciding to not produce offspring for his brother is an integral part of the story. And I don't see anything that says God killed Onan specifically for spilling the semen rather than for refusing to impregnate his brother's widow. So I have to ask myself, what makes theologians focus on the semen rather than Onan's intent? Intent almost always has more to do with sin and God's judgment than the actions themselves. The obvious answer, to me, is the culture in which the theologians lived.

So if we're going to use the story of Onan as a basis for a moral statute, I need a reason why I'm supposed to care about Onan's coitus interruptus but not that he was refusing to impregnate his brother's widow.

I get that you're asking why the judgment of the church, at least the Protestant side, seems to have changed regarding contraception. I'm ultimately asking is the issue purely theological, or is there a significant element of culture involved both in the change and in the prior theological opinion(s)? In my opinion, I think the latter question has to be answered before an answer to the former question can be found. And I think culture is deeply involved. So when our culture changed, our approach to the theology changed.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 06:50:28 PM by Universe Prince »
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The_Professor

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2007, 07:39:40 PM »
all this talk about onan made think
how can abstinence be accepted ?
if the dude says no than a kid will not be born also.


However, how often is THAT the case? Isn't it usually the gal who has to say no? I'm not syaing this is correct, only that, based upon my experience, this is the case.
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kimba1

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2007, 07:57:46 PM »
maybe in the past guys don`t say no
but in the present with lame excuses we will find reason not to.
remember the sitcom married with children al bundy is rarely in the mood
that`s not fiction.
publicly men will not admit it,but the drive does thin out with time.
hef needs 3 women to function ,when before one would be enough.

The_Professor

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2007, 09:39:25 PM »
Well, I can concur with that. I am in my fifties and the drive has lessened, which I understand from my physician, is perfectly normal. Still high, according to my wife.  ;D But lessened nonetheless.

But, at a younger age particularly, I believe in many cases, my statement is sound.

And, Hef has Bob Dole's solution to meet his, er, someone's needs.  Of course, at his advanced age, he might not want it as much, if your theory is true.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2007, 10:09:09 PM »

There are not too many people to sustainably survive now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is just not true: if the birth rate and the consumption rate of resources continues at its present pace, there will be a collapse, certainly within 200 years, probably sooner.

The Salvador war was about overpopulation; the present Iraq war is about resources.

Both caused the resources to be consumed more rapidly.
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kimba1

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2007, 11:35:52 PM »
he might not want it as much, if your theory is true.

remember he used to be with  seven blonds
and he`s paid to be with these women
it`s just a paycheck with benfits to him.
except for a couple of women,most of these women leave with affection for him.
he even charmed a highly offended jessica alba.
the duide has class

but speaking about bob dole
I just can`t help but like him for doing that viagra commercial
and that pepsi commercial talking about his blue friend
a sense of humor goes along way with me.

_JS

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2007, 09:09:12 AM »
Yes we do,do that , as Prodestants we do not thnk that a commentator a century ealyer is a century more right.

So morality is relative to the Zeitgeist?

No one is saying that earlier commentary is better, nor is anyone saying that Onan is more important than Tamar. Indeed, judging by the story itself, that certainly seems not to be the case. Nor is this teaching of the Church based upon one biblical part of Genesis.

Yet, it doesn't strike you as a little peculiar that an entire segment of Christianity reversed over 19 centuries of teaching in the same 30 year period?
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The_Professor

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2007, 09:28:52 AM »

Quote
And if we're going to use Old Testament as our values guide, is ejaculation during sex something that makes the participants unclean?

No. The first clause is a false premise and the second clause is a an issue for Jewish persons.


Then why should we be concerned about Onan refusing to ejaculate into his brother's widow to give her a child? Yes, I do realize there is a history of using Onan's story as a reason for opposing masturbation and contraception. But if I'm supposed to care about Onan's story as a morality tale, doesn't that mean I need to take the Old Testament seriously about other sexual issues? We don't get to pick and choose what parts of the Old Testament apply to us, do we? I need a reason why I'm supposed to care about Onan spilling his seed but not that he was refusing to impregnate his brother's widow.

I have never understand why this is construed as a message against masturbation. Onan got in trouble because he disobeyed God. If God says to dig a hole, you di a hole. If he says to do WHATEVER, you do  it or risk the consequences.
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_JS

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2007, 09:49:32 AM »
Because I'm a thinking person with my own mind. Saying this is the way it is because he said so just doesn't satisfy me. Onan was sent to his brother's widow to perform his cultural duty of giving her a child to raise as her dead husband's heir. Onan refused to inseminate her, and God killed him. The main reason I can discover for why Christian theologians have focused on the coitus interruptus and not the duty to impregnate the brother's widow is that culturally Christians were not engaged in the practice of taking care of widows in that fashion. Not even in the early church which was much more closely connected to Judaism than the church of today. And so I am left with the question of how much of the sexual morality lesson you've discussed is a result of culture and how much is theology.

Reading the related scriptures in several different versions, I see that Onan deciding to not produce offspring for his brother is an integral part of the story. And I don't see anything that says God killed Onan specifically for spilling the semen rather than for refusing to impregnate his brother's widow. So I have to ask myself, what makes theologians focus on the semen rather than Onan's intent? Intent almost always has more to do with sin and God's judgment than the actions themselves. The obvious answer, to me, is the culture in which the theologians lived.

Oh, but it is incorrect to assume that the theologians did not look to the duty of Onan to impregnate his brother's widow. Remember that Jewish teachers also taught (and a sect of Judaism still teaches) that contraception is wrong, especially in specific circumstances. Both Jerome and Augustine discuss Judah, Tamar, and Onan.

Quote
So if we're going to use the story of Onan as a basis for a moral statute, I need a reason why I'm supposed to care about Onan's coitus interruptus but not that he was refusing to impregnate his brother's widow.

Because Christ defined marriage as a sacrament from God (Matthew 19:5-6). Augustine made that clear when he addressed the Manichaens.

Quote
I get that you're asking why the judgment of the church, at least the Protestant side, seems to have changed regarding contraception. I'm ultimately asking is the issue purely theological, or is there a significant element of culture involved both in the change and in the prior theological opinion(s)? In my opinion, I think the latter question has to be answered before an answer to the former question can be found. And I think culture is deeply involved. So when our culture changed, our approach to the theology changed.[/color]

I think that is a fair questions and statement. Theological approaches and interpretative approaches do change over time. The problem in that question is that it assumes that the Church has not reviewed the issue either. She has, on many occasions - one of which I posted was Paul VI encyclical of Humanae Vitae. The Church has had councils and disagreements over this issue, but nothing to warrant a change in the overall precept.

I think there are two problems people have with any teaching that is anti-contraceptive. First, there is a misconception that this is some sort of strict rule that is arbitrarily waved about by the Church (or more sinister minds have claimed that it is part of some nefarious plot by the Church). Of course this is not true. The rule if it must be called that, is born very much out of love and as I said, was once accepted by all of Christendom. It holds marriage in the highest possible regard as a union of man and wife into one flesh. A Christian marriage cannot be dissolved. It is a calling (just as the presthood, or a religious vocation). More than that, it is vital to hold women to the highest regard. From Epiphanius and Augustine to Paul VI have come warnings that contraceptives will bring degredation and objectification of women.

The other problem is that people are so deeply engulfed in a society that is accepting of contraceptive use that they cannot imgagine a modern society without them. Western nations heavily prioritise constant economic growth and improvement of living standards (at least for segments of their population) and it has become accepted that population control is a part of this economic formula. To emulate that success, poverty-stricken third world nations follow suit. Along with contraceptive use comes abortion as a means to control family size or keep individuals within a certain economic range (children are expensive!).

But, it is interesting that in Germany, once a country that frowned upon women having children, they are now providing many incentives (mostly tax breaks) for women to do just that. So we might see a time where these views change, at least somewhat.
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The_Professor

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2007, 09:53:10 AM »
"Of course if Onan is simply being disobedient, then why aren't many others who are disobedient summarily executed as Onan is?"

This is God's call, not ours. He chooses what to do when. He obviously wanted to make a point here.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2007, 10:23:20 AM »
I have never understand why this is construed as a message against masturbation. Onan got in trouble because he disobeyed God. If God says to dig a hole, you di a hole. If he says to do WHATEVER, you do  it or risk the consequences.

==========================================================================
It is pretty difficult to disobey God directly these days, because the Supreme Being has become remarkably tongue-tied for the past thirty centuries or so.


He supposedly sent Jesus to explain stuff, but for some weird reason, Jesus wrote nothing, and all we have from him are some recollections by people who claim to have known him, written decades after the fact.

You can disobey God by refusing to follow some of the instructions mentioned in the Old Testament, such as allowing witches, homosexuals, and disobedient offspring to live, or eating the wrong sort of locusts, but this apparently is not sufficient to cause divine destruction.

I have decided not to stone witches, queers or sassy kids, and nothing really bad has happened to me. I don't even bother to look up when I hear thunder anymore.

Perhaps the Supreme Being is on vacation, or off creating another universe.
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Plane

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2007, 12:45:27 PM »
From Epiphanius and Augustine to Paul VI have come warnings that contraceptives will bring degredation and objectification of women.
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


Well in experimental terms , now that we have contraception widely availible , are we becoming an oversexed society that disrespects women and dismisses the reproductive acts importance ?

Are we emphasiseing the enjoyment of sex above responsibility ?


One might argue that we indeed are ,"Girls gone wild " seems evidence of it.

But is the connection to contraception direct inderect or illusionary?

kimba1

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2007, 02:11:33 PM »
girls gone wild is a funny thing

it`s not true porn but it sells more than porn
it promotes flashing without sex.
but it`s refer to as ther break down of our morals.
I personally think kids doing jackass type pranks more dangerous than legal age girls flashing in mardi gras
but i do see a connection here
excitement
until parents figure out studying and going to church is not equal to a extreme sport/video games
we will always have this problem.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2007, 02:41:56 PM »
From Epiphanius and Augustine to Paul VI have come warnings that contraceptives will bring degredation and objectification of women.

===================================================
This is nonsense: women were treated much more as objects by Paul himself than anyone would dare treat them now.

Paul said that women should not even speak in church.
Let him try that crap today, and he'd be pitched out on his ample, albeit possibly holy, butt.

Contraception means that women can decide whether they want to have children or not, and the same for men.

It takes the apprehension out of sex. That is a GOOD thing.

Think about it.

Most of you antediluvians who are against abortion are also against contraception. I am at a loss to understand why you aren't for cannibalism and ritual scarification as well.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 02:45:32 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
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Amianthus

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Re: Contraception
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2007, 02:59:44 PM »
Most of you antediluvians who are against abortion are also against contraception.

What a load of AMBE.
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