Author Topic: The Melting Pot  (Read 9750 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2007, 05:12:17 PM »

Perhaps my question is better phrased by asking if the best outcome of the whole supercedes the best interest of the subgroup.

And yes i think it matters simply because it lays out the ground rules for doing business.

If you disagree with that, tell me why.


Why would the best outcome of the whole not be the best interest of the subgroup? For someone who can ask a lot of ridiculous questions hunting for clarification of straightforward comments, you sure do make some vague statements.  In any case, we've gotten back to diversity as divisions, which is what I said was wrong in the first place. You've now placed the subgroup (singular) against the whole and said it matters "because it lays out the ground rules for doing business." Why we need these divisions for business is not clear, neither is why the subgroup's interests must be at odds with the interests of the whole such that we need to decide whether the interests of the whole supersedes that of the subgroup. If what you want is clarification I suggest you should start by clarifying your own post first.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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BT

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2007, 05:22:39 PM »
If diversity is not about divisions, then why the need for labeling the various subgroups.

Or are you saying the needs and focus of urban-Americans is not different than that of rural-americans. Are they not both fighting over a slice of the american pie?





Plane

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2007, 05:23:28 PM »

Perhaps my question is better phrased by asking if the best outcome of the whole supercedes the best interest of the subgroup.

And yes i think it matters simply because it lays out the ground rules for doing business.

If you disagree with that, tell me why.


Why would the best outcome of the whole not be the best interest of the subgroup? For someone who can ask a lot of ridiculous questions hunting for clarification of straightforward comments, you sure do make some vague statements.  In any case, we've gotten back to diversity as divisions, which is what I said was wrong in the first place. You've now placed the subgroup (singular) against the whole and said it matters "because it lays out the ground rules for doing business." Why we need these divisions for business is not clear, neither is why the subgroup's interests must be at odds with the interests of the whole such that we need to decide whether the interests of the whole supersedes that of the subgroup. If what you want is clarification I suggest you should start by clarifying your own post first.


Quite often one subgroup seeks advantage over the rest or some other subgroup , this depends on how these "groups " are defined and organised , it isn't possible to gurantee all groups equal strength .

Universe Prince

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2007, 05:27:27 PM »

How are you insulted by my questions?

Are they beneath you?


Oh come on. "Am I an American or a German-Irish-American?" You don't know the answer to that? "Which is the set and which is the subset?" You don't know the answer to that? Do you really need me to answer those questions to understand my position when I've already explained it, and a couple times at least, in plain language? The questions are insulting because apparently either you think I don't know what I'm talking about or you're not paying attention to anything I say. And when you pull that kind of crap with me, 9 times out of 10, I'm going to throw it back at you. So if you want to play dumb and ask me questions about whether you should have been offended by people not identifying something I've already said I don't care about, I certainly can't stop you, but don't be surprised if I don't act pleased.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2007, 05:28:05 PM »
If diversity is not about divisions, then why the need for labeling the various subgroups.

Or are you saying the needs and focus of urban-Americans is not different than that of rural-americans. Are they not both fighting over a slice of the american pie?







Nobody calls Adam "unkle" the "group" that matters most is Humanity.

But there is no potential for organiseing all of humanity is there?

The various tribes and clans must deal with each other.


I would like to define an American Identity as a brotherhood with open enrollment but some requirements.

Plane

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2007, 05:31:34 PM »

How are you insulted by my questions?

Are they beneath you?


Oh come on. "Am I an American or a German-Irish-American?" You don't know the answer to that? "Which is the set and which is the subset?" You don't know the answer to that? Do you really need me to answer those questions to understand my position when I've already explained it, and a couple times at least, in plain language? The questions are insulting because apparently either you think I don't know what I'm talking about or you're not paying attention to anything I say. And when you pull that kind of crap with me, 9 times out of 10, I'm going to throw it back at you. So if you want to play dumb and ask me questions about whether you should have been offended by people not identifying something I've already said I don't care about, I certainly can't stop you, but don't be surprised if I don't act pleased.


I think he has a second step in mind that depends on narrowing the definition.

Can we divide our Citizens into two groups , those who take citizenship seriously and those who don't?

Can those who don't be further devided into those who care more for some other part of their identity and those who are apathetic?

Should we really have equal voteing rights for those of us who who do our homework as those who don't?

BT

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2007, 05:32:00 PM »
Quote
would like to define an American Identity as a brotherhood with open enrollment but some requirements.

I have no problem with that definition though it does imply threat the confederation  is supreme to the tribes otherwise it would not be able to impose requirements.

.

BT

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2007, 05:35:01 PM »
Quote
I think he has a second step in mind that depends on narrowing the definition.

More likely i am observing a leaf float down a stream with no idea where it will go.

I am not debating, nor am i arguing, i am simply trying to discuss.


Plane

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2007, 05:37:30 PM »
Quote
I think he has a second step in mind that depends on narrowing the definition.

More likely i am observing a leaf float down a stream with no idea where it will go.

I am not debating, nor am i arguing, i am simply trying to discuss.



Then I guessed wrong , what is the lacking part now?

Religious Dick

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2007, 05:43:36 PM »
 



PRINT WINDOW    CLOSE WINDOW


WONDER LAND

The Death of Diversity
People in ethnically diverse settings don't care about each other.

BY DANIEL HENNINGER
Thursday, August 16, 2007 12:01 a.m.

Diversity was once just another word. Now it's a fighting word. One of the biggest problems with diversity is that it won't let you alone. Corporations everywhere have force-marched middle managers into training sessions led by "diversity trainers." Most people already knew that the basic idea beneath diversity emerged about 2,000 years ago under two rubrics: Love thy neighbor as thyself, and Do unto others as they would do unto you. Then suddenly this got rewritten as "appreciating differentness."
George Bernard Shaw is said to have demurred from the Golden Rule. "Do not do unto others as you would have them do unto you," Shaw advised. "Their tastes may not be the same." No such voluntary opt-out is permissible in our time. The parsons of the press made diversity into a secular commandment; do a word-search of "diversity" in a broad database of newspapers and it might come up 250 million times. In the Supreme Court term just ended, the Seattle schools integration case led most of the justices into arcane discussions of diversity's legal compulsions. More recently it emerged that the University of Michigan, a virtual Mecca of diversity, announced it would install Muslim footbaths in bathrooms, causing a fight.

Now comes word that diversity as an ideology may be dead, or not worth saving. Robert Putnam, the Harvard don who in the controversial bestseller "Bowling Alone" announced the decline of communal-mindedness amid the rise of home-alone couch potatoes, has completed a mammoth study of the effects of ethnic diversity on communities. His researchers did 30,000 interviews in 41 U.S. communities. Short version: People in ethnically diverse settings don't want to have much of anything to do with each other. "Social capital" erodes. Diversity has a downside.

Prof. Putnam isn't exactly hiding these volatile conclusions, though he did introduce them in a journal called Scandinavian Political Studies. A great believer in the efficacy of what social scientists call "reciprocity," he wasn't happy with what he found but didn't mince words describing the results:

"Inhabitants of diverse communities tend to withdraw from collective life, to distrust their neighbors, regardless of the color of their skin, to withdraw even from close friends, to expect the worst from their community and its leaders, to volunteer less, give less to charity and work on community projects less often, to register to vote less, to agitate for social reform more, but have less faith that they can actually make a difference, and to huddle unhappily in front of the television." The diversity nightmare gets worse: They have little confidence in the "local news media." This after all we've done for them.

Colleagues and diversity advocates, disturbed at what was emerging from the study, suggested alternative explanations. Prof. Putnam and his team re-ran the data every which way from Sunday and the result was always the same: Diverse communities may be yeasty and even creative, but trust, altruism and community cooperation fall. He calls it "hunkering down."





Give me a break! you scream. What about New York City or L.A.? From the time of Sherwood Anderson's "Winesburg, Ohio" through "Peyton Place" and beyond, people have fled the flat-lined, gossip-driven homogeneity of small American "communities" for the welcome anonymity of big-city apartment building--so long as your name wasn't Kitty Genovese, the famous New York woman who bled to death crying for help.
It's a wonderfully thought-provoking study, suitable for arguing the length of a long August weekend and available as a lecture on Prof. Putnam's Harvard Web site, the "Saguaro Seminar." Astute readers, however, have already guessed who's thrilled with the results.

Pat Buchanan, reflecting an array of commentaries on the study from the American right, says, "Putnam provides supporting fire from Harvard Yard for those who say America needs a time-out from mass immigration, be it legal or illegal." The "antis" believe the Putnam study hammers the final intellectual nail in the coffin of immigration and diversity.

The diversity ideologues deserve whatever ill tidings they get. They're the ones who weren't willing to persuade the public of diversity's merits, preferring to turn "diversity" into a political and legal hammer to compel compliance. The conversions were forced conversions. As always, with politics comes pushback. And it never stops.

The harvest of bitter fruit from the diversity wars begun three decades ago across campuses, corporations and newsrooms has made the immigration debate significantly worse. Diversity's advocates gave short shrift to assimilation, indeed arguing that assimilation into the American mainstream was oppressive and coercive. So they demoted assimilation and elevated "differences." Then they took the nation to court. Little wonder the immigration debate is riven with distrust.

The diversity ideologues ruined a good word and, properly understood, a decent notion. What's needed now is for a younger black, brown or polka-dot writer to recast the idea in a way that restores the worth and utility of assimilation. Somebody had better do it soon; the first chart offered in the Putnam study depicts inexorably rising rates of immigration in many nations. The idea that the U.S. can wave into effect a 10-year "time out" on immigration flows is as likely as King Canute commanding the tides to recede.

Here, too, Robert Putnam has a possible assimilation model. Hold onto your hat. It's Christian evangelical megachurches. "In many large evangelical congregations," he writes, "the participants constituted the largest thoroughly integrated gatherings we have ever witnessed." This, too, is an inconvenient truth. They do it with low entry barriers to the church and by offering lots of little groups to join inside the larger "shared identity" of the church. A Harvard prof finds good in evangelical megachurches. Send this man a suit of body armor!

My own model for the way forward in a 21st century American society of unavoidable ethnic multitudes is an old one, a phrase found nowhere in the Putnam study or any commentary on it: the middle class. Its assimilating virtues may be boring, but it works, if you work at getting into it.

Of course Hillary Clinton believes this can't happen here because the middle class has been "invisible" to George Bush. As with diversity, progress is always just beyond the horizon.
Mr. Henninger is deputy editor of The Wall Street Journal's editorial page. His column appears Thursdays in the Journal and on OpinionJournal.com.

Copyright ? 2007 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

http://opinionjournal.com/columnists/dhenninger/?id=110010477

I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

BT

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2007, 05:44:45 PM »
Quote
Then I guessed wrong , what is the lacking part now?

Willingness. Apparently discussion is rare to this board after all these years.

Universe Prince

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2007, 05:46:56 PM »

If diversity is not about divisions, then why the need for labeling the various subgroups.


I don't know. I didn't bring up the labeling. You're the one who has placed so much emphasis on whether you're American or German-Irish-American, so why don't you tell me why you're so damn hung up on labels?


Or are you saying the needs and focus of urban-Americans is not different than that of rural-americans. Are they not both fighting over a slice of the american pie?


Are they fighting? Are "urban-Americans" fighting against "rural-Americans"? Is there a zero-sum "american pie" where if one group gets a bigger piece then some other group must have a smaller one? Why don't you explain your opinion of this matter rather than asking a lot of judgmental questions?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2007, 05:47:14 PM »
Quote
Then I guessed wrong , what is the lacking part now?

Willingness. Apparently discussion is rare to this board after all these years.


I disagree UP is generous with his thoughts , but he resists giveing them up on any but his own terms.

Universe Prince

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2007, 05:49:51 PM »

I am not debating, nor am i arguing, i am simply trying to discuss.


The frak you are.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: The Melting Pot
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2007, 05:51:44 PM »
[

Are they fighting? Are "urban-Americans" fighting against "rural-Americans"? Is there a zero-sum "american pie" where if one group gets a bigger piece then some other group must have a smaller one? Why don't you explain your opinion of this matter rather than asking a lot of judgmental questions?


Yes indeed , get a map of the election results for the last few elections broken down by county or district.

It is easy to note that Urban America is voteing very blue and rural America is voteing very red, this is the sharpest deliniation that we have between groups that split us so nearly evenly in half.

Urban people want to run an urbane government , this includes a set of ideas unpopular with people who are closer to the land .