DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: MissusDe on October 05, 2008, 10:48:48 PM

Title: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: MissusDe on October 05, 2008, 10:48:48 PM: Recriminations.

By Thomas Sowell

Abraham Lincoln said, ?You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you can?t fool all the people all the time.?

Unfortunately, the future of this country, as well as the fate of the Western world, depends on how many people can be fooled on Election Day, just a few weeks from now.

Right now, the polls indicate that a whole lot of the people are being fooled a whole lot of the time.

The current financial bailout crisis has propelled Barack Obama back into a substantial lead over John McCain ? which is astonishing in view of which man and which party has had the most to do with bringing on this crisis.

It raises the question: Do facts matter? Or is Obama?s rhetoric and the media?s spin enough to make facts irrelevant?

Fact Number One: It was liberal Democrats, led by Sen. Christopher Dodd and Congressman Barney Frank, who for years ? including the present year ? denied that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were taking big risks that could lead to a financial crisis.

It was Sen. Dodd, Congressman Frank, and other liberal Democrats who for years refused requests from the Bush administration to set up an agency to regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

It was liberal Democrats, again led by Dodd and Frank, who for years pushed for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to go even further in promoting subprime mortgage loans, which are at the heart of today?s financial crisis.

Alan Greenspan warned them four years ago. So did the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers to the president. So did Bush?s secretary of the Treasury, five years ago.

Yet, today, what are we hearing? That it was the Bush administration ?right-wing ideology? of ?de-regulation? that set the stage for the financial crisis. Do facts matter?

We also hear that it is the free market that is to blame. But the facts show that it was the government that pressured financial institutions in general to lend to subprime borrowers, with such things as the Community Reinvestment Act and, later, threats of legal action by then Attorney General Janet Reno if the feds did not like the statistics on who was getting loans and who wasn?t.

Is that the free market? Or do facts not matter?

Then there is the question of being against the ?greed? of CEOs and for ?the people.? Franklin Raines made $90 million while he was head of Fannie Mae and mismanaging that institution into crisis.

Who in Congress defended Franklin Raines? Liberal Democrats, including Maxine Waters and the Congressional Black Caucus, at least one of whom referred to the ?lynching? of Raines, as if it was racist to hold him to the same standard as white CEOs.

Even after he was deposed as head of Fannie Mae, Franklin Raines was consulted this year by the Obama campaign for his advice on housing!

The Washington Post criticized the McCain campaign for calling Raines an adviser to Obama, even though that fact was reported in the Washington Post itself on July 16th. The technicality and the spin here is that Raines is not officially listed as an adviser. But someone who advises is an adviser, whether or not his name appears on a letterhead.

The tie between Barack Obama and Franklin Raines is not all one-way. Obama has been the second-largest recipient of Fannie Mae?s financial contributions, right after Sen. Christopher Dodd.

But ties between Obama and Raines? Not if you read the mainstream media.

Facts don?t matter much politically if they are not reported.

The media alone are not alone in keeping the facts from the public. Republicans, for reasons unknown, don?t seem to know what it is to counterattack. They deserve to lose.

But the country does not deserve to be put in the hands of a glib and cocky know-it-all, who has accomplished absolutely nothing beyond the advancement of his own career with rhetoric, and who has for years allied himself with a succession of people who have openly expressed their hatred of America.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NGRjODM1MTJlOGZiZDk2ODI4NTUzMWMxYjgwMjliMGQ= (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NGRjODM1MTJlOGZiZDk2ODI4NTUzMWMxYjgwMjliMGQ=)
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 05, 2008, 10:59:52 PM: The people getting fooled into thinking Palin and McCain are not typical Juniorbush Republicans, managed by the same old Oligarchy.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Plane on October 06, 2008, 01:58:01 AM: What explains the time lag between these bad changes in law and the collapse of Fannie and Freddie?

What that the time it took for the amount of bad debt to pile up to a critical mass, or was this a weakness that was waiting on a shock to fracture?
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 02:39:25 AM: How come in eight years of being President, most of it with a Republican majority, George W. Bush did not do a God-damn thing to rectify the situation created by those evil Democrats?

How come on the morning of the very day that the roof fell in, John McCain was fatuously declaiming that the fundamentals of the American economy were strong? And a week later, that America was in its worst crisis since WWII?

"Blame the Democrats" not only insults the voters' intelligence, but it also reeks of desperation,
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Amianthus on October 06, 2008, 08:19:29 AM: Quote from: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 02:39:25 AM
How come in eight years of being President, most of it with a Republican majority, George W. Bush did not do a God-damn thing to rectify the situation created by those evil Democrats?

I seem to remember some action was tried around 2003-2004, but the Democrats shot it down "because there's nothing wrong with Freddie and Fannie."
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: MissusDe on October 06, 2008, 10:20:31 AM: Quote
How come in eight years of being President, most of it with a Republican majority, George W. Bush did not do a God-damn thing to rectify the situation created by those evil Democrats?

From Sowell's piece:

Fact Number One: It was liberal Democrats, led by Sen. Christopher Dodd and Congressman Barney Frank, who for years - including the present year - denied that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were taking big risks that could lead to a financial crisis.

It was Sen. Dodd, Congressman Frank, and other liberal Democrats who for years refused requests from the Bush administration to set up an agency to regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

It was liberal Democrats, again led by Dodd and Frank, who for years pushed for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to go even further in promoting subprime mortgage loans, which are at the heart of today's financial crisis.

Alan Greenspan warned them four years ago. So did the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers to the president. So did Bush's secretary of the Treasury, five years ago.

<snip>

Then there is the question of being against the 'greed' of CEOs and for 'the people.' Franklin Raines made $90 million while he was head of Fannie Mae and mismanaging that institution into crisis.

Who in Congress defended Franklin Raines? Liberal Democrats, including Maxine Waters and the Congressional Black Caucus, at least one of whom referred to the 'lynching' of Raines, as if it was racist to hold him to the same standard as white CEOs.

Even after he was deposed as head of Fannie Mae, Franklin Raines was consulted this year by the Obama campaign for his advice on housing!

The Washington Post criticized the McCain campaign for calling Raines an adviser to Obama, even though that fact was reported in the Washington Post itself on July 16th. The technicality and the spin here is that Raines is not officially listed as an adviser. But someone who advises is an adviser, whether or not his name appears on a letterhead.

The tie between Barack Obama and Franklin Raines is not all one-way. Obama has been the second-largest recipient of Fannie Mae's financial contributions, right after Sen. Christopher Dodd.

And this was posted last week; perhaps you missed it?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs[/youtube]
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 10:24:55 AM: <<I seem to remember some action was tried around 2003-2004, but the Democrats shot it down "because there's nothing wrong with Freddie and Fannie.">>

Did this not happen in a Republican-majority Congress?
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Knutey on October 06, 2008, 10:28:12 AM: Quote from: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 10:24:55 AM
<<I seem to remember some action was tried around 2003-2004, but the Democrats shot it down "because there's nothing wrong with Freddie and Fannie.">>

Did this not happen in a Republican-majority Congress?

Please T . Dont confuse them with thefacts. It might hurt their little feelers . They really do seem to be hypersensitive since their aged and retarded candidates are imploding. O wants to raise their taxes on their $250000 incomes and they just cant stand it!
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Amianthus on October 06, 2008, 10:54:16 AM: Quote from: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 10:24:55 AM
Did this not happen in a Republican-majority Congress?

As XO is (usually) quick to point out, there was not a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, so according to that theory, they couldn't get anything passed.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 01:30:05 PM: <<As XO is (usually) quick to point out, there was not a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, so according to that theory, they couldn't get anything passed.>>

Did they even TRY? Was there ever any evidence that anyone from the evil Democratic side was going to filibuster reform? Did Bush make any special addresses to the nation demanding that the Congress pass this oh-so-crucial necessary reform?

And in another vein - - were Fanny and Freddy the sole contributors to the mess? Was AIG the Democrats' fault as well? Was Merrill Lynch? Was Lehman Brothers?
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Amianthus on October 06, 2008, 01:33:36 PM: Quote from: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 01:30:05 PM
Did they even TRY?

I seem to remember some filibuster threats from that time which caused some bills to be dropped, but I don't remember the specifics.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 01:44:29 PM: Were the Republicans so totally lacking in foresight that they abandoned the putative bill merely from anonymous threats of filibuster, thereby losing forever the opportunity to demonstrate their vastly superior knowledge and foresight and also the culpability of the evil Democrats for the looming disaster which the Republicans in their wisdom clearly saw coming? Or was it that they preferred to be known as cowards and wimps, unwilling to advance legislation which they knew to be in the vital interests of the population because of the fear of anonymous threats of filibuster?

You know, Ami, I hope that after eight years in office, the Republicans DO try to blame this whole fiasco on the Democrats, because it would truly be the icing on the cake! The voting public would have to be MORONS to fall for this, and I don't think at this point, they are in a receptive frame of mind to being called or treated as morons by, of all people, the Republican Party.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: sirs on October 06, 2008, 01:54:31 PM: Quote from: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 02:39:25 AM
How come in eight years of being President, most of it with a Republican majority, George W. Bush did not do a God-damn thing to rectify the situation created by those evil Democrats?

News flash....because they were BOTH at fault. BOTH facilitated the current economic mess we're in. Bush and his administration for pusing for mass home ownership, regardless of their financial stability, and Democrats for looking the other way, when all the warning flags were showing themselves. Democrats even on record as singing the praises of Fannie & Freddie, in 2004, no reforms or regulations needed here, despite McCain & the GOP's warnings. All the while Obama & Co raking in the campain contributions from Fannie/Freddie, and Obama's cheif economic advisor, former Fannie CEO

Quote from: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 02:39:25 AM
How come on the morning of the very day that the roof fell in, John McCain was fatuously declaiming that the fundamentals of the American economy were strong?

Because of its continuing being taken out of context and LIED about by folks like.....yourself
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: richpo64 on October 06, 2008, 01:56:22 PM: >> ...Bush and his administration for pusing for mass home ownership ... <<

Could I ask what you're referring to here?

Thanks
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 02:05:34 PM: MT: <<How come on the morning of the very day that the roof fell in, John McCain was fatuously declaiming that the fundamentals of the American economy were strong?>>

sirs: <<Because of its continuing being taken out of context . . . >>

No, it was NOT taken out of context. There was no preceding reference to "the American worker" and no following reference to "the American worker" so there was no context which could give any meaning to the words other than the plain meaning of the words themselves.

<< . . .and LIED about by folks like.....yourself>>

Oh it was LIED about, alright. By John Insane himself, who claimed he meant something totally different from what he actually said, and by folks like . . . YOU, who claim it was taken out of context, but are totally unable to provide any example of the context of those words to indicate that the real reference was to the American worker and not to the American economy.

ahhhh, sirs, can't you appreciate how delicious this all is? That lying little weasel is being exposed AT THE SAME TIME as both an out-of-touch fool AND a cowardly liar who runs from his own words. And the people see it that way too. His campaign is in free-fall already, just wait for the next debate.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: richpo64 on October 06, 2008, 02:14:24 PM: McCain was correct of course. Capitalism has weathered many storms, large and small. We survived after 9-11 because the fundamentals of our economy are strong and will weather the current storm also. I might add it could have been done without the current give away bill. McCain should have voted against it. It would have been perfect positioning to point out Barry's connection to the crisis and given him leverage with the American people who overwhelmingly oppose it.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Plane on October 06, 2008, 02:44:47 PM: Lets get this timeline straight.

Republican executive
small Republican majority legislative branch

later

Republican executive
small Democratic majority legislative branch

And the failure occured after the change?

This doesn't prove that the change to Democratic Majority caused the failures , but no other indicator is any stronger.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2008, 02:50:53 PM: McCain was correct of course. Capitalism has weathered many storms, large and small. We survived after 9-11 because the fundamentals of our economy are strong and will weather the current storm also. I might add it could have been done without the current give away bill. McCain should have voted against it. It would have been perfect positioning to point out Barry's connection to the crisis and given him leverage with the American people who overwhelmingly oppose it.
======================================================================================

So you are for McCain doing nothing, simply for political advantage, regardless of whether it would be best for the country?
Even McCain's limited knowledge of economics is superior to yours. The fundamentals are not strong. Like everything else touched by the inept Juniorbush, this has turned to sh*t as well. It does not take a genius to know that one does not fight a war for five years on borrowed money without serious consequences.

Perhaps you think McCain should be awarded the Herbert Hoover Prize for Economic Ineptitude.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Plane on October 06, 2008, 03:13:51 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2008, 02:50:53 PM
McCain was correct of course. Capitalism has weathered many storms, large and small. We survived after 9-11 because the fundamentals of our economy are strong and will weather the current storm also. I might add it could have been done without the current give away bill. McCain should have voted against it. It would have been perfect positioning to point out Barry's connection to the crisis and given him leverage with the American people who overwhelmingly oppose it.
======================================================================================

So you are for McCain doing nothing, simply for political advantage, regardless of whether it would be best for the country?
Even McCain's limited knowledge of economics is superior to yours. The fundamentals are not strong. Like everything else touched by the inept Juniorbush, this has turned to sh*t as well. It does not take a genius to know that one does not fight a war for five years on borrowed money without serious consequences.

Perhaps you think McCain should be awarded the Herbert Hoover Prize for Economic Ineptitude.

It is possible that doing nothing might have been better than nationaliseing all of the nations bad debt.

But Bush , Obama, McCain are all together on this one , they all backed the same action.

I hope it works , but it won't work unless our fundamental economic situation is sound.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2008, 03:18:33 PM: The forces that drive Wall Street are fear and greed, and the speculation as to what actions will be most likely to drive the fear and greed of others.

Doing nothing is not really an option, as this simply allows fear and greed to chase speculation until companies are worth their salvage value in a depressed market.

I cannot say whether the bill passed is the best that could have been passed, but doing nothing was the worst action possible.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Plane on October 06, 2008, 03:21:22 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2008, 03:18:33 PM
The forces that drive Wall Street are fear and greed, and the speculation as to what actions will be most likely to drive the fear and greed of others.

Doing nothing is not really an option, as this simply allows fear and greed to chase speculation until companies are worth their salvage value in a depressed market.

I cannot say whether the bill passed is the best that could have been passed, but doing nothing was the worst action possible.

I am not sure you are wrong .

Neither am I sure that the bailout is anything like a good idea.

Time will tell I suppose.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: sirs on October 06, 2008, 03:46:25 PM: Quote from: richpo64 on October 06, 2008, 01:56:22 PM
>> ...Bush and his administration for pushing for mass home ownership ... <<

Could I ask what you're referring to here? Thanks

Well Rich, I heard, with my own ears, Bush sounding just like a Democrat, at some press coverence, shortly after he took office. He was advocating how important it was for people to own homes (How good it makes people feel, I guess), and how so often the problem is they don't have the money *shocking*. And of course, the government should do soemthing about those who can't come up with a down payment. I swear, he sounded just like any other Democrat. Was pushing for more laxed protocols my lending institutions, including messers Freedie & Fannie. Was advocating a pool of money (our tax dollars) to be used for certain families, that could not otherwise afford a down payment, have access to $$$ that could be used as a down payment. I'm not making this up. Then you may recall the frequent rhetoric used by the administration in touting how many new home owners were coming into being, under his watch >:(
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: sirs on October 06, 2008, 03:50:00 PM: Quote from: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 02:05:34 PM
MT: <<How come on the morning of the very day that the roof fell in, John McCain was fatuously declaiming that the fundamentals of the American economy were strong?>>

sirs: <<Because of its continuing being taken out of context . . . >>

No, it was NOT taken out of context.

YES it WAS. When it was made CLEAR what he meant, it STILL continues to be lied about, by folks like yourself.

Quote from: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 02:05:34 PM
ahhhh, sirs, can't you appreciate how delicious this all is?

Your latest round of distortion and lying? Not really. same 'ol, same 'ol
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Michael Tee on October 06, 2008, 04:49:05 PM: <<When it was made CLEAR what he meant [by "The fundamentals of our economy are strong."] it STILL continues to be lied about, by folks like yourself.>>

Ah, but it was ALREADY clear what he meant by it. Nobody could mistake that meaning. Hence the frantic efforts by the lying little weasel to convince someone, ANYone, that he meant something entirely different. THIS is exactly what is causing his supporters to desert him in droves and Obama's stock to continue to rise. The deeper he and his supporters try to dig him out of his own hole, the more the rest of the country can easily see what a despicable bunch of lying bastards they really are.

<<Your latest round of distortion and lying? Not really. same 'ol, same 'ol>>

Truth hurts, eh sirs? This is one blooper you and McSame can't lie your way out of. You're stuck with it, buddy. "Distortion and lying," eh? Now, now. Just remember what happens when you point one finger at somebody else.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: richpo64 on October 06, 2008, 05:05:09 PM: >>So you are for McCain doing nothing, simply for political advantage, regardless of whether it would be best for the country?<<

Not exactly. Voting against the bail out would be the right thing to do for the country and for the McCain campaign. Voting against it would allow him to differenciate himself from Obama and expose Obama and Franklin Raines
For their part in the cover up. He could then use the footage CU4 posted her in commercials pointing out how the democrats are complicate in this mess.

>>Even McCain's limited knowledge of economics is superior to yours.<<

And mine is superior to yours, obviously.

>>The fundamentals are not strong.<<

The parrot says.

>>Like everything else touched by the inept Juniorbush, this has turned to sh*t as well.<<

Isn’t he just precious!

>>It does not take a genius…<<

Then you’re safe.

>>Perhaps you think McCain should be awarded the Herbert Hoover Prize for Economic Ineptitude.<<

I think that award was renamed the Jimma Carter Prize for inept liberal leadership.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2008, 06:16:05 PM: Well, it is just too f*cking late for McCain to vote no on the bailout.
You might as well talk about how he should have picked Ron Paul, or Condi Rice or his nose, in lieu of the incompetent Palin.

You are beyond inept. You are among the least ept posters around. It is a close contest between Christians, RR and you, but keep talking about what might have been that will never be, and that should draw you closer.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: richpo64 on October 06, 2008, 06:43:53 PM: >>Well, it is just too f*cking late for McCain to vote no on the bailout.<<

Brilliant. Can I quote you on that?

>>You might as well talk about how he should have picked Ron Paul, or Condi Rice or his nose, in lieu of the incompetent Palin.<<
It’s amazing how people came make these kinds of comments with a straight face (I always picture XO with a permanent scowl). Barry has far, far, far, less experience in the real world and in government than Governor Palin has, yet they keep repeating this kind of nonsense. Well, democrats don’t really traffic in truth so I imagine it’s like anything else they do. They just say things and convince themselves it’s true. Governor Palin is certainly more competent than the teleprompter dependent Barry. And governor Palin loves her country. Obama and his big gummed wife have made it abundantly clear how they feel.

>>You are beyond inept…<<

I’ll just skip your little tantrum because as is always the case, you get personal when I bitch slap you with the truth.

Call your mommy and tell her how mean we Republicans are. I'm sure she'll make it all better.

::)
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2008, 06:58:04 PM: Obama and his big gummed wife have made it abundantly clear how they feel.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So now you are suggesting that the size of a spouse's gums is somehow relevant?

Other than to identify you as a flaming racist, HOW, pray tell HOW?

Democrats said nothing about Barbara Bush's Freddy Kruger looks, and here you are, ranting about gums.

I don't even see where Michelle Obama is in anyway unique in the size of her gums.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Plane on October 06, 2008, 07:09:16 PM: (http://www.whois-barack-obama.com/Portals/0/barack_and_michelle_obama2.jpg)

I don't see any gum problem with Michelle.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Plane on October 06, 2008, 07:13:37 PM: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/thesis.asp (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/thesis.asp)

That she wrote something we are not allowed to read is more like a problem.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2008, 08:20:03 PM: I fail to see how this is any sort of a problem.

There are summaries of all Theses and Dissertations available online.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Plane on October 06, 2008, 08:23:32 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2008, 08:20:03 PM
I fail to see how this is any sort of a problem.

There are summaries of all Theses and Dissertations available online.

You should straighten Snopes out about that.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: richpo64 on October 06, 2008, 09:24:55 PM: >> Well Rich, I heard, with my own ears ...<<

Thanks. I think it's a bit of a streach connecting what Bush said to banks making bad loans though.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: fatman on October 06, 2008, 10:47:01 PM: Sirs is right. The current crisis is the fault of both parties, the SEC and the Fed. I'm getting tired of hearing one side blaming the other, in the meantime no one seems to know what to do about it, other than spend money that we don't have. I was reading today that no one knows how exactly the bailout will help the economy. Isn't that kind of important before you ask for (and pass) a $700 billion ~~bailout~~ rescue bill? What I would love to see right now is someone, I don't care if it's a Congressman, a candidate, an economist, or whomever, to stand up and say "I know how to fix this. We need to do X and Y and Z, and this will cause A and B and C". But I think that both sides are too busy pointing the finger and trying to fling mud at the other side to stop and think about what might need to be done.

Today at work a co-worker and I were discussing the crisis and he related to me that he was having a hard time getting a loan for a washing machine. WTF? When did we as a society become so dependant on credit that we have to take loans for a fricking washing machine? I can understand a loan for a house, even a car if the borrower can afford it. I don't really see why the personal consumer needs a loan for anything else, if they're smart and planned ahead. If you can't afford a washing machine, then you need to save your money until you can buy one, or go on Craigslist and find one. During this same discussion, I came to find out that people take out loans for TV's, computers, and a bunch of other crap. This is what's going to kill us economically. Does no one save their money for something that they want anymore? And yes, I understand that credit allows the consumer to buy products that they might not necessarily buy otherwise, thereby keeping the manufacturer in business, keeping employment steady, etc. But isn't that kind of an artificial economy? It sure as hell isn't anything approaching self-sufficient.

The next area of big business that I expect to see start failing are credit card companies, for the same reason that the mortgage industry collapsed. There is way too much easy credit out there to people that probably shouldn't have it, and now that times are getting tougher I think that you're going to see more and more defaults. And we'll probably have to ride to the rescue again.

Just my $.02
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: richpo64 on October 06, 2008, 11:00:42 PM: >>Sirs is right. The current crisis is the fault of both parties, the SEC and the Fed.<<

I've said that. Sirs has said that. I believe BT has also said that. However you never hear our left leaning members blame anyone but Republicans. So we spend time pointing out just how complicit democrats are in this fiasco. And they still deny it.

So what ya gonna do?
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2008, 11:04:59 PM: Today at work a co-worker and I were discussing the crisis and he related to me that he was having a hard time getting a loan for a washing machine. WTF? When did we as a society become so dependent on credit that we have to take loans for a fricking washing machine? I can understand a loan for a house, even a car if the borrower can afford it. I don't really see why the personal consumer needs a loan for anything else, if they're smart and planned ahead. If you can't afford a washing machine, then you need to save your money until you can buy one, or go on Craigslist and find one.
============================================================
Amen to that.

If a new washer costs $300, you can get one barely used, with a bit of effort, on Craigslist or at a yard sale, for less than half that. All appliances are available in the same way. I have yet to buy a new appliance, or pay over $150 for anything.

What about Cindy Crawford, advertising that you can buy a whole houseful of furniture for $3000 and can make no payments for three years? I wonder how much of that furniture is set out on the curb when some defaulting family is evicted?
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: fatman on October 06, 2008, 11:43:30 PM: I've said that. Sirs has said that. I believe BT has also said that. However you never hear our left leaning members blame anyone but Republicans. So we spend time pointing out just how complicit democrats are in this fiasco. And they still deny it.

I should have clarified Rich that I was addressing more the national politicians than the forum members. The people here are who (and what) they are, I doubt any bitching on my part is going to change any of that, as the members here have no incentive from me bitching to change. Politicians, on the other hand, are always worried about votes, and if enough people bitch about their non-action, perhaps some action will be taken.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2008, 01:33:34 PM: However you never hear our left leaning members blame anyone but Republicans.

Do you not read? I just posted above a reply to what fatman said about people living beyond their means.

The problem is you only read your own nonsense.
Title: Re: Do Facts Matter?
Post by: richpo64 on October 07, 2008, 01:56:02 PM: It's true I tend to skim over your insults and curses. Which of course leaves only the leftist drivel and not much else.