Author Topic: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius  (Read 1121 times)

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BSB/Hero/Genius/MovieStar

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"On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« on: August 23, 2012, 03:33:46 AM »
I just finished reading "The Swerve" by Stephen Greenblatt. Non-Fiction. Interesting. It's about a book hunter, Poggio Bracciolini,  who during the Renaissance discovered Lucretius' ancient poem "On the Nature of Things".  If you were a religious man, and most were back then, or a member of the Church, this was a very dangerous poem. One the Church wished had never turned up.  In it is depicted a universe that functions without the aide of a god, or gods. It further posits that human life is more likely damaged by religion than assisted by it.

Many artists, scientists, thinkers, were effected by the rediscovery of this poem that was originaly written so long ago. Among them: Galileo, Freud, Darwin, Einstein, and Thomas Jefferson.


From the poem:

"This terror, then, this darkness of the mind,
Not sunrise with its flaring spokes of light,
Nor glittering arrows of morning can disperse,
But only Nature's aspect and her law,
Which, teaching us, hath this exordium:
Nothing from nothing ever yet was born.
Fear holds dominion over mortality
Only because, seeing in land and sky
So much the cause whereof no wise they know,
Men think Divinities are working there.
Meantime, when once we know from nothing still
Nothing can be create, we shall divine
More clearly what we seek: those elements
From which alone all things created are,
And how accomplished by no tool of Gods.
Suppose all sprang from all things: any kind
Might take its origin from any thing,
No fixed seed required. Men from the sea
Might rise, and from the land the scaly breed,
And, fowl full fledged come bursting from the sky;
The horned cattle, the herds and all the wild
Would haunt with varying offspring tilth and waste;
Nor would the same fruits keep their olden trees,
But each might grow from any stock or limb
By chance and change. Indeed, and were there not
For each its procreant atoms, could things have
Each its unalterable mother old?
But, since produced from fixed seeds are all,
Each birth goes forth upon the shores of light
From its own stuff, from its own primal bodies.
And all from all cannot become, because
In each resides a secret power its own.
Again, why see we lavished o'er the lands
At spring the rose, at summer heat the corn,
The vines that mellow when the autumn lures,
If not because the fixed seeds of things
At their own season must together stream,
And new creations only be revealed
When the due times arrive and pregnant earth
Safely may give unto the shores of light
Her tender progenies? But if from naught
Were their becoming, they would spring abroad
Suddenly, unforeseen, in alien months,
With no primordial germs, to be preserved
From procreant unions at an adverse hour.
Nor on the mingling of the living seeds
Would space be needed for the growth of things
Were life an increment of nothing: then
The tiny babe forthwith would walk a man,
And from the turf would leap a branching tree-......................................."

BSB/Hero/Genius/MovieStar

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2012, 04:32:46 AM »
On the Nature of Things

By Lucretius

Written 50 B.C.E

Translated by William Ellery Leonard


http://classics.mit.edu/Carus/nature_things.1.i.html

Plane

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 06:57:56 AM »
It is so very nice to see you BsB!

Your back , and as a gift , you bring an anti-Darwin argument that predates Darwin!

Thank you!

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2012, 09:36:39 AM »
Lucretius was not anti Darwin so much as anti Creator God.

Darwin was a scientific and methodical observer of nature, but he did not reach his conclusions until he observed the diversity of the Galapagos, where similar creatures lived in isolation.

The Bible states that each animal was the product of a specific divine creation.

Darwin described the evolutionary process. He noted that it ran counter to the Bible, but could still have been God's scheme.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2012, 10:25:20 AM »
XO "Darwin was a scientific and methodical observer of nature, but he did not reach his conclusions until he observed the diversity of the Galapagos, where similar creatures lived in isolation."

That's right, Charles Darwin based his findings on his own observations. But his grandfather Erasmus Darwin's evolutionary theories had been influenced by "Lucretius' vision of an entirely natural, unplanned process of creation and destruction, endlessly renewed by sexual reproduction."(1)

On the Nature of Things was a table setter for so much of what we take for granted today.

1. "The Swerve", page 262, ISBN 978-0-393-06447-6 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 10:32:22 AM by BSB/Hero/Genius/MovieStar »

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 12:51:57 PM »
On the Nature of Things was a table setter for so much of what we take for granted today.

==========================
This is certainly true.

For Darwin to ask the question was the starting point. Lucretius caused people to question a lot of things.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 01:14:14 PM »
Welcome back, B
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 10:49:32 PM »
  I am sure that this poem was a good example of the wisdom of the time, but what is it that makes it especially signifigant?

  Didn't later science provide better theroys for many of the points the poem makes?

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2012, 01:49:52 AM »
Nothing comes from nothing, Plane. Ideas follow that same pattern. Myths, illusions, and so forth, die hard. A new way of seeing things will arise and begin to move throughout the intellectual cosmos. It may disappear for awhile then come back, perhaps stronger, or slightly modified. It may begin to inspire, and perhaps even spawn a new scientific, or political, theory.

This poem has made such a contribution, how great maybe debated. But it has contributed to the way in which our world has become modern. 

Thomas Jefferson owned 5 Latin editions, plus several other translations, of On the Nature of Things . It was one of his favorite books. He added "the pursuit of happiness" to the constitution as a direct result of studying this poem. 


BSB

Hello Sirs
 

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2012, 10:53:45 AM »
I believe the phrase "pursuit of happiness" came from British philosopher Jeremy Bentham. Perhaps Bentham translated this from Lucretius?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2012, 12:25:38 PM »
I'll let you debate that with professor Greenblatt (Humanities, Harvard), XO.

Since Lucretius work is littered with the idea that happiness is mans highest pursuit, and since we know that Jefferson owned at least 8 copies of his work,  I tend to agree with Greenblat. 
 
BSB

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2012, 02:18:40 PM »
The idea comes from Epicurian philosophy. I do not know what Greenblat said. The phrase seems to be original in English with Bentham. There was no English language in the days of Lucretius. Lucretius was, of course, not entirely original. The avoidance of pain and the pursuit of pleasure were main ideas in the works of Epicurus.

I think that Jefferson's Latin was rather a lot better than his Greek.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus

There is a lot of Jeremy Bentham involved here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham


And then there is John Locke (not the bald guy in "Lost"):

Locke argued in his Two Treatises of Government that political society existed for the sake of protecting "property," which he defined as a person's "life, liberty, and estate."[4] In A Letter Concerning Toleration, he wrote that the magistrate's power was limited to preserving a person's "civil interest," which he described as "life, liberty, health, and indolency of body; and the possession of outward things."[5] He declared in his Essay Concerning Human Understanding that "the highest perfection of intellectual nature lies in a careful and constant pursuit of true and solid happiness."[6]

According to those scholars who saw the root of Jefferson's thought in Locke's doctrine, Jefferson replaced "estate" with "the pursuit of happiness," although this does not mean that Jefferson meant the "pursuit of happiness" to refer primarily or exclusively to property. Under such an assumption, the Declaration of Independence would declare that government existed primarily for the reasons Locke gave, and some have extended that line of thinking to support a conception of limited government.[7][8][9][10][11]
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2012, 04:34:14 PM »
I get the impression that Jefferson used the term from the Epicurean point of view, as did Lucretius, rather than from the more limited point Looke was making.

I'm going to keep at this and see where it leads. I can't believe Greenblatt would just throw this out there without significant study.   

BSB
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 04:42:09 PM by BSB/Hero/Genius/MovieStar »

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2012, 05:56:27 PM »
I know nothing about Greenblat, so I cannot comment on what he meant.

Bentham did not agree with the Founding Fathers on everything:

Bentham became a leading theorist in Anglo-American philosophy of law, and a political radical whose ideas influenced the development of welfarism. He advocated individual and economic freedom, usury, the separation of church and state, freedom of expression, equal rights for women, the right to divorce, and the decriminalising of homosexual acts.[1] He called for the abolition of slavery and the death penalty, and for the abolition of physical punishment, including that of children.[2] Though strongly in favour of the extension of individual legal rights, he opposed the idea of natural law and natural rights, calling them "nonsense upon stilts".[3]

I assume that by usury, he meant "lending money at interest" and not the sort of usury practiced by Vinnie, Guido and Instant Payroll Lenders.

I sort of like the turn of phrase "nonsense upon stilts".

It sounds like something that could be applied to some gun nuts. (My right to pack this Glock is derived from Gawd Awmighty.)
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2012, 08:20:03 PM »



It sounds like something that could be applied to some gun nuts. (My right to pack this Glock is derived from Gawd Awmighty.)

Who are you quoting?