Author Topic: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head  (Read 3332 times)

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BT

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2010, 03:19:24 AM »
Why Arizona Drew a Line
By KRIS W. KOBACH

Kansas City, Kan.

ON Friday, Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona signed a law ? SB 1070 ? that prohibits the harboring of illegal aliens and makes it a state crime for an alien to commit certain federal immigration crimes. It also requires police officers who, in the course of a traffic stop or other law-enforcement action, come to a ?reasonable suspicion? that a person is an illegal alien verify the person?s immigration status with the federal government.

Predictably, groups that favor relaxed enforcement of immigration laws, including the American Civil Liberties Union and the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund, insist the law is unconstitutional. Less predictably, President Obama declared it ?misguided? and said the Justice Department would take a look.

Presumably, the government lawyers who do so will actually read the law, something its critics don?t seem to have done. The arguments we?ve heard against it either misrepresent its text or are otherwise inaccurate. As someone who helped draft the statute, I will rebut the major criticisms individually:

It is unfair to demand that aliens carry their documents with them. It is true that the Arizona law makes it a misdemeanor for an alien to fail to carry certain documents. ?Now, suddenly, if you don?t have your papers ... you?re going to be harassed,? the president said. ?That?s not the right way to go.? But since 1940, it has been a federal crime for aliens to fail to keep such registration documents with them. The Arizona law simply adds a state penalty to what was already a federal crime. Moreover, as anyone who has traveled abroad knows, other nations have similar documentation requirements.

?Reasonable suspicion? is a meaningless term that will permit police misconduct. Over the past four decades, federal courts have issued hundreds of opinions defining those two words. The Arizona law didn?t invent the concept: Precedents list the factors that can contribute to reasonable suspicion; when several are combined, the ?totality of circumstances? that results may create reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed.

For example, the Arizona law is most likely to come into play after a traffic stop. A police officer pulls a minivan over for speeding. A dozen passengers are crammed in. None has identification. The highway is a known alien-smuggling corridor. The driver is acting evasively. Those factors combine to create reasonable suspicion that the occupants are not in the country legally.

The law will allow police to engage in racial profiling. Actually, Section 2 provides that a law enforcement official ?may not solely consider race, color or national origin? in making any stops or determining immigration status. In addition, all normal Fourth Amendment protections against profiling will continue to apply. In fact, the Arizona law actually reduces the likelihood of race-based harassment by compelling police officers to contact the federal government as soon as is practicable when they suspect a person is an illegal alien, as opposed to letting them make arrests on their own assessment.

It is unfair to demand that people carry a driver?s license. Arizona?s law does not require anyone, alien or otherwise, to carry a driver?s license. Rather, it gives any alien with a license a free pass if his immigration status is in doubt. Because Arizona allows only lawful residents to obtain licenses, an officer must presume that someone who produces one is legally in the country.

State governments aren?t allowed to get involved in immigration, which is a federal matter. While it is true that Washington holds primary authority in immigration, the Supreme Court since 1976 has recognized that states may enact laws to discourage illegal immigration without being pre-empted by federal law. As long as Congress hasn?t expressly forbidden the state law in question, the statute doesn?t conflict with federal law and Congress has not displaced all state laws from the field, it is permitted. That?s why Arizona?s 2007 law making it illegal to knowingly employ unauthorized aliens was sustained by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

In sum, the Arizona law hardly creates a police state. It takes a measured, reasonable step to give Arizona police officers another tool when they come into contact with illegal aliens during their normal law enforcement duties.

And it?s very necessary: Arizona is the ground zero of illegal immigration. Phoenix is the hub of human smuggling and the kidnapping capital of America, with more than 240 incidents reported in 2008. It?s no surprise that Arizona?s police associations favored the bill, along with 70 percent of Arizonans.

President Obama and the Beltway crowd feel these problems can be taken care of with ?comprehensive immigration reform? ? meaning amnesty and a few other new laws. But we already have plenty of federal immigration laws on the books, and the typical illegal alien is guilty of breaking many of them. What we need is for the executive branch to enforce the laws that we already have.

Unfortunately, the Obama administration has scaled back work-site enforcement and otherwise shown it does not consider immigration laws to be a high priority. Is it any wonder the Arizona Legislature, at the front line of the immigration issue, sees things differently?

Kris W. Kobach, a law professor at the University of Missouri at Kansas City, was Attorney General John Ashcroft?s chief adviser on immigration law and border security from 2001 to 2003.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/opinion/29kobach.html?pagewanted=print

Michael Tee

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2010, 10:20:03 AM »
<<Why would a racist cop be worried about losing their job. The power of racism is that it is institutionalized and that the racist cop has a network of management behind him that will cover up, minimize and negate any negative repercussions that could possibly arise from some minority standing tall for their civil rights. >>

Well, I will just say that in the real world, which I have a considerable acquaintance with, even a racist cop in a racist police force with a racist management network and a racist or do-nothing Police Complaints Commission and a majority white racist consensus among the voting citizens STILL has to watch his ass.  It's a measure of the declining power of racism that the racist pig just can't get away with the kind of racist shit that would have been routine and unremarkable fifty or sixty years ago.  As racism has declined, it has become more "shameful" so that even hardcore racists feel compelled to deny their own racism.  They still hate the same people, but they invent new reasons for a hatred which once needed NO reasons at all - - the illegals "jumped the line," they are robbers, kidnappers, so we aren't fighting Mexicans, we are fighting robbers and kidnappers.  And so to maintain the hypocritical facade, inquiries have to be instituted even though we all know what the results of those "inquiries" are going to be, full exoneration for the racist pig, tacit condemnation of his victim, or else just a "tragic" misunderstanding with nobody at fault.

Nevertheless, for the racist pig, there is considerable inconvenience - - he is vilified in the press, which desperately needs stories of heroes and villains, his own kids, the charade of the "inquiries" must be gone through, not only police force internal hearings, but formal police charges if necessary, perhaps even a public trial on criminal charges, with appeals, changes of venue and all that is entailed - - millions of dollars ultimately spent for the dubious pleasure of breaking some Mexican's face.  How many times do you think one cop can get away with this shit, with all the sympathy in the world in all the right places, he is still costing his bosses time and MONEY and in America today, we all know that the strongest traditional value is the value of MONEY.  This one racist pig can just cost more MONEY than his racism is worth.  So there are limits even to his racism, and he knows not to trigger the powers of police and societal hypocrisy any more than is absolutely necessary.  Of course there are some cops - - Justin Volpe being one sterling example - - who just don't get it.  Even though he ALMOST escaped justice, "almost" isn't good enough for a guy still serving his thirty-year sentence.  The closeness of his escape from justice is a measure of the remaining force of institutional racism, but the fact that he ultimately got nailed when one of his fellow pigs turned state's evidence indicates, at least in New York State, that the bad guys don't ALWAYS win.

<<Now you are on record as stating the law in Arizona was written by racist legislators with the intent of their will being carried out by racist law enforcement personnel which indicates to me that you agree that the whole power structure of Arizona has institutionalized the concept of keeping the brother down. >>

Yeah but note how even the racist AZ legislators have to cloak their racist intent behind race-neutral verbiage; they can't come out and say frankly in the legislation what its real intent is or how it is actually intended to be enforced.  Racism can only exist today if accompanied by hypocrisy.  And that hypocrisy places barriers before racist pigs who previously would not have had to contend with such barriers.  The new legislation, still mindful to use race-neutral language, hopes to remove at least some of those barriers that impede racist pigs in their racism.

Michael Tee

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2010, 10:48:14 AM »
<<For example, the Arizona law is most likely to come into play after a traffic stop. A police officer pulls a minivan over for speeding. A dozen passengers are crammed in. None has identification. The highway is a known alien-smuggling corridor. The driver is acting evasively. Those factors combine to create reasonable suspicion that the occupants are not in the country legally.>>

Therein lies the essence of the problem.  Speeding.  A driver going 1 mph over the posted speed limit is "speeding."  Does he get pulled over for it in the real world?  Of course not.  But under the racist AZ legislation, a Mexican going 1 mph over limit can and will be pulled over, especially if his family is in the car with him.  The police are encouraged to harass each one by demanding papers ("You're on a highway where lots of immigrants are smuggled."  "But we live close by and we're going on a picnic, officer."  "Shut up and show me yer papers, beaner.")  It's an invitation to harass Hispanics and that's exactly how it's going to play out. 

<<While it is true that Washington holds primary authority in immigration, the Supreme Court since 1976 has recognized that states may enact laws to discourage illegal immigration without being pre-empted by federal law. As long as Congress hasn?t expressly forbidden the state law in question, the statute doesn?t conflict with federal law and Congress has not displaced all state laws from the field, it is permitted. That?s why Arizona?s 2007 law making it illegal to knowingly employ unauthorized aliens was sustained by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.>>

IN all probability the federal immigration statutes did not prohibit US citizens from employing illegal aliens, which is why SCOTUS would have permitted the AZ state law when it was enacted to prohibit such conduct - - there was no conflict between the state and the federal law.  The new AZ law seems to be directly related to, and in conflict with, the power of federal immigration officers to investigate (for prosecution) the status of suspected illegals.  The argument is that a state of AZ officer has no business doing what the Constitution tells the feds is their duty.  Hopefully this legislation will wind up in the Supreme Court and be resolved there.

Despite Prof. Kobach's head-in-the-clouds view of how things work on Planet Earth, a police state is EXACTLY what this law will create - - not for the average white guy, but definitely for anyone of Hispanic or Mexican appearance.  These people will be subject to incessant police stops for the most trivial infractions, subjected to humiliating and abusive searches, demands for papers, etc.  Despite the good Professor's lofty assurances that the need to carry papers is common in "other countries," the fact is that I have traveled extensively in many other countries and never once been asked for papers.  The power to demand papers from anyone is limited in practice to demanding papers from the poor, the darker-skinned and the poorly-clad.  AZ will become police-state hell for any Mexican or apparent Mexican and continue to be the land of country clubs, golf courses and luxury condos for white-skinned natives and tourists.  It was a joke that the statute bars "racial profiling" - - just as racist pigs can always find the broken tail-light or the partly-obscured plate, so they can always find some factor, real or imaginary, other than racial, to account for their actions.  Don't undersestimate the craftiness of the typical "dumb racist." 

BT

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2010, 11:43:15 AM »
Quote
Despite the good Professor's lofty assurances that the need to carry papers is common in "other countries," the fact is that I have traveled extensively in many other countries and never once been asked for papers.

You must not look Jewish.

Did you carry the papers with you, just in case?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 12:04:18 PM by BT »

Amianthus

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2010, 12:14:24 PM »
Despite the good Professor's lofty assurances that the need to carry papers is common in "other countries," the fact is that I have traveled extensively in many other countries and never once been asked for papers.

Funny, I've traveled extensively in other countries and in the US, and every time I have been stopped for a traffic violation I have been asked for my papers. How do you get away with not showing id when stopped?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2010, 12:16:54 PM »
IN all probability the federal immigration statutes did not prohibit US citizens from employing illegal aliens, which is why SCOTUS would have permitted the AZ state law when it was enacted to prohibit such conduct - - there was no conflict between the state and the federal law.  The new AZ law seems to be directly related to, and in conflict with, the power of federal immigration officers to investigate (for prosecution) the status of suspected illegals.  The argument is that a state of AZ officer has no business doing what the Constitution tells the feds is their duty.  Hopefully this legislation will wind up in the Supreme Court and be resolved there.


What is the conflict?

Seems very directly to be a ditto of already existing Federal law.

Michael Tee

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2010, 12:27:00 PM »
<<You must not look Jewish.

<<Did you carry the papers with you, just in case? >>

The most common nationality that I've been mistaken for, when people guess, is German, ironically enough.  Or Irish.   I don't fit the stereotype.  Don't "look Jewish."    I carry my passport with me only if there's no safe in the hotel room.  I keep anything important (passport, large bills) in a body pouch inside the waistband of my pants if I don't like the hotel security.  Never leave anything in the room unless it's in a room safe, no matter how good the hotel.  

<<Funny, I've traveled extensively in other countries and in the US, and every time I have been stopped for a traffic violation I have been asked for my papers. How do you get away with not showing id when stopped?>>

I'm a very good driver and I've never been stopped by a cop in a foreign country.  My credit cards and Ontario driver licence are in my wallet, and the rental agreement in the glove compartment.  That being said, I think the only places I've ever driven in were Germany (Frankfurt to Hanover) Italy (Naples to Sorrento) and France (all over.)   A lot of our trips were to big cities where we didn't need a car.  Usually we prefer public transit (subways, etc.) or for inter-city travel, trains.  Sometimes buses.  That's probably the way I've gotten around on over 80% of my trips.  Of course if I'm going from one city to another, my passport will be on me because we've checked out of the hotel.  

But as I say, I have never once been stopped and asked to show it and that's in over forty years of travel.  I'm sure that in those same forty years, plenty of Moroccans, Algerians, Indonesians etc. have been stopped many times in the same places I've been and asked to show ID.  The laws that require ID are ONLY for enforcement against visible minorities.  They are enacted in the knowledge that they will not be enforced against whites, otherwise they would not be enacted.

Self-correction:  I was once stopped for speeding on the road to Buffalo, about twenty minutes before entering the city.  Although I had my passport on me (I always used it for crossing the border even before the U.S. legally required it) I was NOT asked for a passport or visa, the trooper was satisfied with the Ontario driver licence.  I would have been very surprised if he'd asked me for my passport.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 12:38:53 PM by Michael Tee »

Michael Tee

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2010, 12:32:36 PM »
<<What is the conflict?

<<Seems very directly to be a ditto of already existing Federal law.>>

A ditto is a conflict.  Which is why I assumed that existing Fed law did not, at the time the AZ workplace law was before the SCOTUS, deal with American citizens who employ illegals.  If it had, then the AZ law would probably have been struck down as a ditto, which means a conflict.  You can't have two separate entities ruling on the exact same topic, otherwise they'll bump heads.  They won't always make the same calls on the same issues.

BT

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2010, 12:45:45 PM »
Quote
A ditto is a conflict.

Since when?

Amianthus

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2010, 01:14:44 PM »
The laws that require ID are ONLY for enforcement against visible minorities.  They are enacted in the knowledge that they will not be enforced against whites, otherwise they would not be enacted.

Guess I must look browner than you. I was asked for my passport while driving in Ontario. And I don't even get a rental car issued to me in other countries unless I show my passport.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2010, 01:24:02 PM »
<<Guess I must look browner than you. I was asked for my passport while driving in Ontario. And I don't even get a rental car issued to me in other countries unless I show my passport.>>

What can I tell ya?  Maybe I look more Aryan than you do.  I'm really surprised the cop asked you for a passport, probably when you showed him a Minnesota permit, or if you were driving a car with Minnesota plates.  But my family often drive here from Michigan and I can't recall any of them being asked for passports.  Until recently, citizens didn't even need a passport to cross the US-Canadian border.  That cop sounds like a real asshole, unless he was acting under new standing orders.

I can't recall whether I show the passport to rent the car but even if I did, it's at the airport so I'd have it on me anyway.  A passport is one of the commonest forms of photo ID, so I wouldn't know if showing the passport was on demand for a passport or just on demand for photo ID.  Then also it's with me on the drive to the hotel.  But once in the hotel and as long as I stay there, it's in the room safe if there's a room safe, or it's on me after I check out.  I used to take it with me if I planned to pay for an evening with Travelers Cheques, because they often ask for the passport and copy the number on the back of the traveler's cheque, but that was all before ubiquitous ATM's and the ATM does NOT ask for passports.

Amianthus

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2010, 01:29:54 PM »
What can I tell ya?  Maybe I look more Aryan than you do.  I'm really surprised the cop asked you for a passport, probably when you showed him a Minnesota permit, or if you were driving a car with Minnesota plates.  But my family often drive here from Michigan and I can't recall any of them being asked for passports.  Until recently, citizens didn't even need a passport to cross the US-Canadian border.  That cop sounds like a real asshole, unless he was acting under new standing orders.

I had a NC driver's license and was driving a car with Maryland plates.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2010, 01:41:23 PM »
NC plates made you fit the profile of a gun smuggler.

Michael Tee

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2010, 05:24:45 PM »
<<Since when? [is a ditto a conflict?]>>

Since forever.

If the godfather tells Joey Thumbs he can have a monopoly on selling coke in the Anchors Aweigh bar and he then tells the same thing (ditto) to Vinnie the Chin, when one of them finds the other selling coke in "his" joint, you can bet your ass there is going to be one hell of a conflict arising out of that "ditto" grant of authority.  It's an either/or proposition, not a "both/and."
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 06:08:28 PM by Michael Tee »

Amianthus

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Re: Peggy Noonan pretty much hits the nail on the head
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2010, 06:19:21 PM »
Since forever.

That's why there is no state level laws against murder - because the Federal government has already preempted that space of the law.

 ::)

And there is no conflicting firearms laws between the Federal Government and that various states.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)