Author Topic: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery  (Read 5032 times)

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sirs

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Compassion Versus Reality

BY WALTER E. WILLIAMS
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 6, 2007


Dr. Thomas Sowell, a distinguished economist and longtime friend and colleague, recently wrote a series of columns under the title "A War of Words." He pointed out that liberals succeed in duping the public because they are so clever with words that they give the appearance of compassion. Liberals talk about the need for "affordable" housing and health care. They tarnish their enemies with terms such as "price-gouging" and "corporate greed." Uninformed and unthinking Americans fall easy prey to this demagoguery.

Politicians exploit public demands that government ought to do something about this or that problem by taking measures giving them greater control over our lives. For the most part, whatever politicians do, whether it's rent controls to produce "affordable" housing, or price controls to eliminate "price-gouging," the result is a calamity worse than the original problem. For example, two of the most costly housing markets are the rent-controlled cities of San Francisco and New York. If you're over 40, you'll remember the chaos produced by the gasoline price controls of the 1970s. Socialist agendas have considerable appeal, but they produce disaster, and the more socialist they are, the greater the disaster.

Liberals often denounce free markets as immoral. The reality is exactly the opposite. Free markets, characterized by peaceable, voluntary exchange, with respect for property rights and the rule of law, are more moral than any other system of resource allocation. Let's examine just one reason for the superior morality of free markets.

Say that I mow your lawn and you pay me $30, which we might think of as certificates of performance. Having mowed your lawn, I visit my grocer and demand that my fellow men serve me by giving me 3 pounds of steak and a six-pack of beer. In effect, the grocer asks, "Williams, you're demanding that your fellow man, as ranchers and brewers, serve you; what did you do to serve your fellow man?" I say, "I mowed his lawn." The grocer says, "Prove it!" That's when I hand over my certificates of performance -- the $30.

Look at the morality of a resource allocation method that requires that I serve my fellow man in order to have a claim on what he produces and contrast it with government resource allocation. The government can say, "Williams, you don't have to serve your fellow man; through our tax code, we'll take what he produces and give it to you." Of course, if I were to privately take what my fellow man produced, we'd call it theft. The only difference is when the government does it, that theft is legal but nonetheless theft -- the taking of one person's rightful property to give to another.

Liberals love to talk about this or that human right, such as a right to health care, food or housing. That's a perverse usage of the term "right." A right, such as a right to free speech, imposes no obligation on another, except that of non-interference.

The so-called right to health care, food or housing, whether a person can afford it or not, is something entirely different; it does impose an obligation on another. If one person has a right to something he didn't produce, simultaneously and of necessity it means that some other person does not have right to something he did produce. That's because, since there's no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy, in order for government to give one American a dollar, it must, through intimidation, threats and coercion, confiscate that dollar from some other American. I'd like to hear the moral argument for taking what belongs to one person to give to another person.

There are people in need of help. Charity is one of the nobler human motivations. The act of reaching into one's own pockets to help a fellow man in need is praiseworthy and laudable. Reaching into someone else's pocket is despicable and worthy of condemnation.

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"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Lanya

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2007, 01:47:17 PM »
Well, Sirs, I hope you don't have to ever get on that awful Social Security.  Or take money from people who are on that devil Medicaid.   
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

sirs

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2007, 02:00:19 PM »
Me too, especially when there are so many on your side that refuse to to allow anyone to fix it, as we all watch it deteriorate, and eventually go bankrupt      :P
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2007, 03:40:36 PM »
<<There are people in need of help. Charity is one of the nobler human motivations. The act of reaching into one's own pockets to help a fellow man in need is praiseworthy and laudable. >>

I guess the 45 million Americans (including 9 million children) without health insurance can just wait around another few years until sirs and a few like-minded friends just "reach into their own pockets" to help them out.  (NEWSFLASH:  They're in for a long wait. Ain't never gonna happen.)

<<Reaching into someone else's pocket is despicable and worthy of condemnation.>>

What's "despicable and worthy of condemnation" is that the country is chock-full of rich bastards who DON'T reach into their own pockets and as a consequence have left the U.S. with one of the worst health-care systems in the entire industrialized world.  High time that somebody (the "evil" U.S. government reached into their pocket for them, took the fucking money and established a health care system worthy of the wealthiest country on the face of the earth.  I'll tell ya, if anything is "despicable and worthy of condemnation it's the fate of 9 million American children without any reliable health care - - only the hope of public charity if their parents will forgo their dignity and beg for it.  Guess it all depends on how dire the need, eh?  While this sack-of-shit apologist for the greedy, selfish rich - - who give in tax-deductible "charity" a tiny fraction of what should be taxed off their ass, leaving the biggest health-care mess on the planet - - has the God-damn fucking balls to castigate anyone who dares to ask that, as in any civilized society, the rich be made to pay their fair share of the national health-care bill.



gipper

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2007, 03:55:22 PM »
I must confess to a certain ambivalence about the general proposition, roughly, "that we should reach into pockets of the rich to pay for what we (the deserving poor, which is most of us) really and truly need." Not only do my political instincts and moral precepts drive me inexorably to that conclusion, but with my underfunded retirement over the horizon (though not yet in view), I can begin to feel the pinch personally if obliquely. Balancing this store of needs and aspirations is the fact that I have many well-heeled friends, whose company I treasure, who nonetheless never pick up the god-damned dinner check!

Michael Tee

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2007, 04:08:35 PM »
So split it down the middle.  We have two kinds of friends - -  The "Your-turn-my-turns" and the "50/50s."   Wouldn't put up with anyone who never picks up the check unless the guy had the wit and the wisdom of Bertrand Russell or George Bernard Shaw.  Then it would be the price of his company and well worth it.

sirs

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2007, 04:46:26 PM »
<<Reaching into someone else's pocket is despicable and worthy of condemnation.>>

What's "despicable and worthy of condemnation" is that the country is chock-full of rich bastards who DON'T reach into their own pockets and as a consequence have left the U.S. with one of the worst health-care systems in the entire industrialized world. 

Minus the abstract jealousy Tee appears to have for people who have money but don't give it to who & where he dictates, I'd pick our "worst health-care system" every single frellin time over ANY other "in the entire industrialized world".  It's a quality thing for me
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2007, 12:04:07 AM »
<<Minus the abstract jealousy Tee appears to have for people who have money but don't give it to who & where he dictates, I'd pick our "worst health-care system" every single frellin time over ANY other "in the entire industrialized world".  It's a quality thing for me>>

Fine, that's your choice.  And what's the choice of the 45 million Americans without health insurance?  More to the point, what's the choice of the NINE MILLION kids without? 


sirs

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2007, 12:28:07 AM »
<<Minus the abstract jealousy Tee appears to have for people who have money but don't give it to who & where he dictates, I'd pick our "worst health-care system" every single frellin time over ANY other "in the entire industrialized world".  It's a quality thing for me>>

Fine, that's your choice

Hey, you're finally catching on


And what's the choice of the 45 million Americans without health insurance?  More to the point, what's the choice of the NINE MILLION kids without? 

Best talk to their parents on that one.  Apparently many are making the wrong choices in life that help exacerbate those #'s.  That can include how best find work that either provides health insurance, or when you have developed enough income to simply purchase it oneself, or heaven forbid you hold off having children until financially more stable to access 1 of the above 2 choices.

An UNACCEPTABLE & completely irresponsible choice is to have as many children as one wants, then demand that taxpayers pay for their healthcare. 


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2007, 12:35:04 AM »
<<An UNACCEPTABLE & completely irresponsible choice is to have as many children as one wants, then demand that taxpayers pay for their healthcare. >>

Unacceptable and completely irresponsible it may certainly be, but not on the part of the kids themselves, who are not at fault in any way.  And in no way does the irresponsibility of the parents relieve you of your obligation to see that those kids receive the exact same quality of medical care as the richest citizens of the country.

sirs

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2007, 02:41:14 AM »
<<An UNACCEPTABLE & completely irresponsible choice is to have as many children as one wants, then demand that taxpayers pay for their healthcare. >>

Unacceptable and completely irresponsible it may certainly be, but not on the part of the kids themselves, who are not at fault in any way.  

As I said, that'd be the fault of the "parents", not the kids NOR the taxpayers.


And in no way does the irresponsibility of the parents relieve you of your obligation to see that those kids receive the exact same quality of medical care as the richest citizens of the country.

I have no OBLIGATION.  You have no OBLIGATION.  You do have a CHOICE however, and you can CHOSE to help out where folks need help.  That doesn't give you the right to demand MY money to help those who have made bad choices.  It's all about that "choice" concept you were starting to grasp in the beginning
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2007, 10:00:24 AM »
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Free markets, characterized by peaceable, voluntary exchange, with respect for property rights and the rule of law, are more moral than any other system of resource allocation.

Then why doesn't it seem to work that way?

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Say that I mow your lawn and you pay me $30, which we might think of as certificates of performance. Having mowed your lawn, I visit my grocer and demand that my fellow men serve me by giving me 3 pounds of steak and a six-pack of beer. In effect, the grocer asks, "Williams, you're demanding that your fellow man, as ranchers and brewers, serve you; what did you do to serve your fellow man?" I say, "I mowed his lawn." The grocer says, "Prove it!" That's when I hand over my certificates of performance -- the $30.

There's a sophomoric example.

Now let's do the one where De Beer's purchases diamonds from a child who was forced at gunpoint to mine them. The money from De Beer's goes to buy weapons for a civil war, while the diamond goes to London to be sold in lots. It is bought by jewelers in Antwerp who cut it and set it in a beautiful engagement ring that some dopey young man must buy for his fiance because you know - "diamonds are forever."

Oh wait, that doesn't fit the polyannish definition of "free market" does it? Let's all run through an alpine meadow, holding hands, and singing songs of praise to the free market ;)

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The only difference is when the government does it, that theft is legal but nonetheless theft -- the taking of one person's rightful property to give to another.

Only if you don't accept Locke's social contract theory. This "tax is theft" thinking is really an exercise in weak political philosophy.

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Liberals love to talk about this or that human right, such as a right to health care, food or housing. That's a perverse usage of the term "right."

Not at all. There's nothing perverse about it, in fact it is far more of a practical and pragmatic view of the term than the definition given afterwards. The definition that follows the above quoted sentence is very esoteric.

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The so-called right to health care, food or housing, whether a person can afford it or not, is something entirely different; it does impose an obligation on another. If one person has a right to something he didn't produce, simultaneously and of necessity it means that some other person does not have right to something he did produce.

Some people call this positive and negative rights. Others will begin to discuss Kantian notions of perfect and imperfect duties.

Me, I like to call it society. Maggie Thatcher was wrong, we aren't a collection of individuals and there is such a thing as society.

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in order for government to give one American a dollar, it must, through intimidation, threats and coercion, confiscate that dollar from some other American. I'd like to hear the moral argument for taking what belongs to one person to give to another person

Matthew 22:21
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Michael Tee

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2007, 10:15:16 AM »
<<I have no OBLIGATION.  You have no OBLIGATION.  You do have a CHOICE however, and you can CHOSE to help out where folks need help.  That doesn't give you the right to demand MY money to help those who have made bad choices.  >>

Yeah well in this country and in yours, the people who had the CHOICE didn't step up to the plate, and so here in Canada they don't have a choice any more.  This country and most others had the basic decency to realize that children don't make bad choices and that they can't be penalized for others who do.  Further that every adult has a RIGHT to basic health care and every citizen an OBLIGATION to see that that right is met.

You people are so sunk in selfishness and greed that it's disgusting.  If someone makes a "bad choice" the penalty, in effect, is sickness and death.   Leaving aside the moronic conception that all those mired in poverty are there by choice, I don't even want to get into it.  I'll deal with the ones who ARE there by choice, the addicts, the gamblers, the lazy parasites, the criminals - - every god-damn one of them our brothers and sisters.   If the consequences of their collective stupidity were limited to their not getting to take that Caribbean cruise or not getting that million-dollar home in the country, well and good.  When the consequences are sickness and death, that's going a little too far for me and most other Canadians to stomach.  That sticks in our craw.

Having these exchanges with you and others like you makes me so PROUD to be a Canadian, to live in a country with the basic goodness and decency to see that while "poor choices" can be expected to have certain material consequences, loss of health and life is not one of them.  We look after each other a little better than that.  In Biblical terms you people are nothing but a bunch of hypocritical (for pretending that all the victims of the system have "chosen" to be its victims) and self-righteous Pharisees.  I'm really glad to exchange views with you, sirs.  It makes me want to get down on my knees and kiss this good Canadian earth under my feet every single morning.

<<It's all about that "choice" concept you were starting to grasp in the beginning>>

Yes, isn't it?  We chose to be our brother's keeper.  And you chose to pass by his suffering and dying and look the other way.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 10:44:52 AM by Michael Tee »

Plane

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2007, 03:26:34 PM »
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This "tax is theft" thinking is really an exercise in weak political philosophy..


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Why would you say this?

Would a strong political philosophy be disinterested in taxes or indiffrent as to how they are used , or care nothing how much or little power and choice was left in priviate hands?


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You people are so sunk in selfishness and greed that it's disgusting.


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No you are , every time anyone looks it is conservatives wh do more volentary giveing , and liberals are not shy about useing tax dodges to avoid paying their maximum.

If Philanthropy is a matter for the state , what will keep it from dieing out in the people?

Remember it was he unreformed Scrooge who refused to give to a charity and insisted that the taxes he paid should be enough. After Scrooge leared to appreaciate other people and to love life , he became a conservative and was more prone to generosity.

Michael Tee

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Re: Uninformed & unthinking Americans fall easy prey to demagoguery
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2007, 03:35:58 PM »
<<Remember it was he unreformed Scrooge who refused to give to a charity and insisted that the taxes he paid should be enough. After Scrooge leared to appreaciate other people and to love life , he became a conservative and was more prone to generosity.>>

And yet somehow, after the conversions of all the Scrooges in all the states of the U.S.A., the country remains today with 45 million Americans includnig 9 million kids without any health insurance and one of the worst public health-care records in the industrialized world. 

Maybe the problem is in people who take the lessons of 19th century romantic fiction and try to apply them to a 21st century real world.