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[sirs]

I have yet to hear any military honchos criticize Gen. Patton.

Patton's dead...and no, you're not going to get away of lack of proof is somehoe defacto proof.  Fact is, you have no support for the asinine claim that the military "brass" use humiliation to treat PTSD.  We'll just chalk that up there with some large % of snipers killing themselves

[kimba1]

presently ..no
but in recent history very much.

but how about bootcamp. I know many marines who told me of recruits who brokedown during training. I found no record of it online yet but from the guys I`ve asked it does happen. but only marines I think the different training might be a factor army and navy I found incident

[Plane]

What is known is that a higher percentage of vets commit suicide than people who have not served in the military of the same age.

   This is true.
    But it is new.

     Fourty years ago veterans killed themselves at about half the rate of the general public, presently they are committing suicide at twice the rate of the general public.

      Something we have done during this time , must have been a mistake.

[kimba1]

i got doubts about those stats. remember until recently the military has a very negative view about mental health so maybe the data maybe skewed about the past.

due to the internet it`s a lot harder to stop information . servicemen can now contact anyone unhindered and issues of critical strategic data is a problem now.
 ever since Vietnam war support has been growing so servicemen has more help now than in the past. so the idea suicides is higher now than the past is abit doubtful to me

[sirs]

presently ..no
but in recent history very much.

but how about bootcamp. I know many marines who told me of recruits who brokedown during training. I found no record of it online yet but from the guys I`ve asked it does happen. but only marines I think the different training might be a factor army and navy I found incident

Someone in or out of the military can provide you a better perspective of the training that's required, but much of it is literally to toughen the soldiers up, both physically & mentally.  They are being trained for combat, so if they mentally breakdown during training, it's better that they breakdown at that time, when no lives are hanging in the balance

[kimba1]

physically true enough but mentally not so sure. we`re talking about the military here . definitely not experts of the human mind. notice a lot of the improved changes took prolonged reactionary responses. ex. MRE is a result of finally acknowledging combat anorexia exist .

I know many veterans who talked about how super easy it is to never eat. if you youtube some of the training  videos it`s literally C/Os  yelling at men to finish their plate. lets just say it`s really wishful thinking on the military that hunger will get the men to eat.

[Plane]

................. we`re talking about the military here . definitely not experts of the human mind.......................

?
why not?

[Xavier_Onassis]

I do not think that the increase of suicides in the military has much to do with the Internet.
It may be a result of the fact that people have smaller families and therefore fewer relatives to provide aid and comfort to them. It also might have something to do with the fact that the population as a whole is less religions, and the taboo against suicide are less strong.

There are a lot of soldiers who were horribly wounded and yet recovered because of better and faster medical care. In previous wars a lot of these people would have died, but now they are alive, but horribly maimed.

Those are some of my speculations. Obviously, there is a reason for the increased frequency of suicides.

[kimba1]

Why not?

I. Believe it was only 8years ago the military started to addrrss the issue of mental care for thier servicemen. I remember it because it was started by one general who stated the military is highly lacking the field and the culture in highly restitant of such change.

Actually i was amazed the change is so quick to the point people here make it sound like mental healthcare in the military is common.

Is it really that common? 

[Xavier_Onassis]

The military certainly WANTS us to believe that their attitude toward mental health has changed. I think one would need to be an afflicted veteran to judge if they are doing a proper job.

Much of what they do in boot camp is in no way necessary or healthy mentally. Much of it is essentially brainwashing.

The opportunity needs to be adequate and effective. Whether it is common is not all that important.

[sirs]

As we've already presented adnauseum, what you think/believe, and what is present day reality, are largely 2 different entities, completely.  Possibly even polar opposite to each other

[kimba1]

I agree bootcamp is brainwashing but not as a negative. it`s very important to ensure those recruits follow orders without question then to resist and get everybody killed. it`s the very reason 18 yr. old are preferred than 25 yr.olds.

the trick is to hope the C/O is not into thinking his troops are chess pieces to sacrifice .  I`ve heard west pointers are known to think like that and do have a harder time earning respect because of it.

[sirs]

Agreed

[Xavier_Onassis]

Is humiliation necessary to cause unquestioning obedience?


And of course, unquestioning obedience was inadequate when it came to prosecuting Nazis, even those who were in their teens when they were trained. Many were sentenced for just carrying out orders.  My Lai was another case where unquestioned obedience led to serious atrocities.

The US Army and even the Marines should not be utterly mindless goons: that is NOT "professional soldiering".

[kimba1]

is humiliation needed?    I say yes to a degree

this is where it gets tricky . the process is called breaking them down then building them up and their really no gentle way to do that.
the trainers themselves are required to follow a strict guideline also because it`s really close to abuse already.

thiers a difference between following orders in a combat situation than herding people to a building. the military does has regulation that allow a soldier to report anything questionable.  refusing is allowed but highly frowned upon. these rules were spelled out very clearly during the Ollie north trial