DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Richpo64 on December 27, 2007, 09:01:53 PM
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The Benefits of Palestinian Economic Collapse
By Daniel Pipes
FrontPageMagazine.com | 12/27/2007
Western financial aid to the Palestinians has, I showed last week, the perverse and counterintuitive effect of increasing their rate of homicides, including terrorist ones. This week, I offer two pieces of perhaps even stranger news about the many billions of dollars and record-shattering per-capita donations from the West: First, these have rendered the Palestinians poorer. Second, Palestinian impoverishment is a long-term positive development.
To begin, some basic facts about the Palestinian economy, drawing on a fine survey by Ziv Hellman, "Terminal Situation," in the Dec. 24 issue of Jerusalem Report:
Palestinian per year per-capita income has contracted by about 40 percent since its US$2,000 peak in 1992 (before the Oslo process began) to less than $1,200 now.
Per-capita Israeli income, 10 times greater than the Palestinians' in 1967 is now 23 times greater.
Deep poverty has increased in Gaza from 22 percent of the population in 1998 to nearly 35 percent in 2006; it would be about 67 percent if not for remittances and food aid.
Direct foreign investment barely exists, while local capital mostly gets sent abroad or is invested in real estate or short-term trading.
The Palestinian Authority economy, Hellman writes, "is largely based on monopolies in various industries granted by PA officials in exchange for kickbacks."
The PA's payroll is so bloated that the cost of wages alone exceeds all revenues.
A dysfunctional judicial system in the PA means armed gangs usually decide commercial disputes.
Unsurprisingly, Hellman characterizes the Palestinian economy as "in shambles."
Such shambles should come as no surprise, for as the late Lord Bauer and others have noted, foreign aid does not work. It corrupts and distorts an economy; and the greater the amounts involved, the greater the damage. One telling detail: at times during Yasir Arafat's reign, a third of the Palestinian Authority's budget went for "expenses of the President's office," without further explanation, auditing, or accounting. The World Bank objected, but the Israeli government and the European Union endorsed this corrupt arrangement, so it remained in place.
Indeed, the Palestinian Authority offers a textbook example of how to ruin an economy by smothering it under well-intentioned but misguided donations. The $7.4 billion recently pledged to it for the 2008-10 period will further exacerbate the damage.
Paradoxically, this error might help resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict. To see why, consider the two models, hardship v. exhilaration, that explain Palestinian extremism and violence.
The hardship model, subscribed to by all Western states, attributes Palestinian actions to poverty, isolation, Israeli roadblocks, the lack of a state, etc. Mahmoud Abbas, the PA leader, summed up this viewpoint at the Annapolis conference in November: "the absence of hope and overwhelming despair ? feed extremism." Eliminate those hardships and Palestinians, supposedly, would turn their attention to such constructive concerns as economic development and democracy. Trouble is, that change never comes.
The exhilaration model turns the Abbas logic on its head: the absence of despair and overwhelming hope, in fact, feed extremism. For Palestinians, hope derives from a perception of Israeli weakness, implying an optimism and excitement that the Jewish state can be eliminated. Conversely, when Palestinians cannot see a way forward against Israel, they devote themselves to the more mundane tasks of earning a living and educating their children. Note that the Palestinian economy peaked in 1992, just as, post-Soviet Union and post-Kuwait war, hopes bottomed out to eliminate Israel.
Exhilaration, not hardship, accounts for bellicose Palestinian behavior. Accordingly, whatever reduces Palestinian confidence is a good thing. A failed economy depresses the Palestinians' mood, not to speak of their military and other capabilities, and so brings resolution closer.
Palestinians must experience the bitter crucible of defeat before they will drop their foul goal of eliminating their Israeli neighbor and begin to build their own economy, polity, society, and culture. No short-cut to this happy outcome exists. Who truly cares for Palestinians must want their despair to come quickly, so that a skilled and dignified people can move beyond its current barbarism and built something decent.
The huge and wasted outpouring of Western financial aid, ironically, brings on that despair in two ways: by encouraging terrorism and by distorting the economy, both of which imply economic decline. Rarely has the law of unintended consequences worked so imaginatively.
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Mr. Pipes (www.DanielPipes.org) is director of the Middle East Forum and author of Miniatures (Transaction Publishers).
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What is next, Pipester, "The benefits of Palestinian starvation"?
They are obviously an inferior subspecies of human being, and deserve to be treated most harshly.
Look, just put the poor bastards in striped suits and work them to death. You could tattoo numbers on them to keep them sorted out, and punish the ones that refuse to comply by giving them cold water showers. The ones that didn't work on could get the Zyclon-B.
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>>Look, just put the poor bastards in striped suits and work them to death. You could tattoo numbers on them to keep them sorted out, and punish the ones that refuse to comply by giving them cold water showers. The ones that didn't work on could get the Zyclon-B.<<
You really have that stuff committed to memory. Does the Holocaust give you a little chubby?
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Does the Holocaust give you a little chubby?
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I'm sure it gave you one.
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Good comeback BO. I know you are, but what am I?
:D
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What is next, Pipester, "The benefits of Palestinian starvation"?
They are obviously an inferior subspecies of human being, and deserve to be treated most harshly.
Look, just put the poor bastards in striped suits and work them to death. You could tattoo numbers on them to keep them sorted out, and punish the ones that refuse to comply by giving them cold water showers. The ones that didn't work on could get the Zyclon-B.
I don't think he is claiming superiority.
This dynamic would very likely operate the same way if you were to replace the Palestinians with Arians ,or whatever.
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<<The hardship model . . . attributes Palestinian actions to poverty, isolation, Israeli roadblocks, the lack of a state, etc. Mahmoud Abbas, the PA leader, summed up this viewpoint at the Annapolis conference in November: "the absence of hope and overwhelming despair ? feed extremism." Eliminate those hardships and Palestinians, supposedly, would turn their attention to such constructive concerns as economic development and democracy. Trouble is, that change never comes.
<<The exhilaration model turns the Abbas logic on its head: the absence of despair and overwhelming hope, in fact, feed extremism. For Palestinians, hope derives from a perception of Israeli weakness, implying an optimism and excitement that the Jewish state can be eliminated. Conversely, when Palestinians cannot see a way forward against Israel, they devote themselves to the more mundane tasks of earning a living and educating their children. Note that the Palestinian economy peaked in 1992, just as, post-Soviet Union and post-Kuwait war, hopes bottomed out to eliminate Israel.>>
<<Exhilaration, not hardship, accounts for bellicose Palestinian behavior. Accordingly, whatever reduces Palestinian confidence is a good thing. A failed economy depresses the Palestinians' mood, not to speak of their military and other capabilities, and so brings resolution closer.>>
The magic of words. Abbas: the Palestinians are devoid of hope, therefore driven to violence. Pipes: the Palestinians are full of hope, therefore driven to violence.
This is the problem of intellectuals totally devoid of any real-world experience. They can make up any imaginary world they like, explain how it works, and then try to pass it off as real. Although common sense would tell us that a people living in abject poverty, subject to military occupation for 40 years, seeing their parents and children humiliated, arrested, tortured and murdered on an almost daily basis would tend to be depressed and hopeless, Pipes assures us that in fact they are filled with hope and even exhiliration.
What does your common sense tell you? My common sense tells me that Pipes is fulla shit.
<<Palestinians must experience the bitter crucible of defeat before they will drop their foul goal of eliminating their Israeli neighbor and begin to build their own economy, polity, society, and culture. >>
Under an Israeli military occupation? With their land settled by ever-increasing influxes of Jewish invaders every day? Neat trick if you can do it. Also, which Palestinian leader has the "foul goal" of "eliminating" Israel? Abbas?
<<No short-cut to this happy outcome exists. Who truly cares for Palestinians must want their despair to come quickly, so that a skilled and dignified people can move beyond its current barbarism and built something decent.>>
If the Jews keep settling the West Bank there won't be any place for them to build anything at all, decent or indecent. Already, what was supposed to be their "Palestinian state" is honeycombed with hundreds of settlements and 270,000 Jewish settlers. Until they're expelled, there won't even be the hope of building a national state.
<<The huge and wasted outpouring of Western financial aid, ironically, brings on that despair in two ways: by encouraging terrorism and by distorting the economy, both of which imply economic decline. >>
OTOH, the huge and wasted outpouring of U.S. tax dollars and private Jewish donations to Israel, which encourage settlement and further Israeli aggression in the occupied territories, Lebanon and possibly elsewhere, are going to bring peace to the whole area.
<<Rarely has the law of unintended consequences worked so imaginatively.>>
Bullshit. Happens all the time. Example: U.S. support for Israeli occupation of Muslim lands ---> Sept. 11. Q.E.D.
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An economic collapse would require (by definition) an economy. Bantustans don't have real economies of their own. By design they are completely dependent upon others. Bantustans with their own economies would be far too dangerous and defeat their own purpose of economic, social, cultural, and racial subservience.
Pipes, as is often the case, is misleading.
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<<Palestinians must experience the bitter crucible of defeat before they will drop their foul goal of eliminating their Israeli neighbor and begin to build their own economy, polity, society, and culture. >>
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The Palestinians in Gaza have certainly suffered the "bitter crucible of defeat" more than most people in the world. It has not caused them to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps, because there are no bootstraps. There are no boots, either.
There is no economy in Gaza, there is no money, except aid, mostly from the Arab world, which is distributed in a political manner, where it will never be used for development. Expecting some sort of free-enterprise recovery in Gaza is like expecting the Springfield Retirement Castle to start its own NFL team.
Pipes is infinitely fulla crap.
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<<The Palestinians in Gaza have certainly suffered the "bitter crucible of defeat" more than most people in the world. It has not caused them to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps, because there are no bootstraps. There are no boots, either.>>
Very well said, XO. While the Zionist bullshit machine (Pipes being a leading participant therein) loves to blame the Palestinian plight in Gaza on everyone and everything BUT the Israelis, primarily upon the victims themselves, the fact of the matter - - that they are still living in Israeli lock-down - - is, not by accident IMHO, persistently ignored in the American MSM. For example, while the Israelis had a thriving agricultural industry in Gaza, exporting mainly to Europe and Turkey, the Palestinians have no control over the Gaza ports. To export their produce, it must be trucked to Israel, past innumberable check-points where it often sits for days under a hot sun, until it gets to an Israeli port for export. Guess how long it took the Palestinians to figure out that they had no viable agricultural industry in Gaza? That there never would be, as long as the Israelis controlled their ability to export?
Of course, Israeli propagandists like Pipes blame the victims, and - - with the compliance of the U.S. MSM - - it's very easy for them to do so. What I can't figure out is how, after the Mearsheimer & Walt book on the Israeli lobby, after the efforts of media groups like "If Americans Knew," and others, the U.S. public remains so abysmally ignorant of the daily facts of life in Israel/Palestine and media frauds like Pipes retain their stranglehold on the "information" that the American public is allowed to see.
<<Pipes is infinitely fulla crap.>>
Yes, he is. But he speaks for some infinitely powerful people.
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. What I can't figure out is how, after the Mearsheimer & Walt book on the Israeli lobby, after the efforts of media groups like "If Americans Knew," and others, the U.S. public remains so abysmally ignorant of the daily facts of life in Israel/Palestine and media frauds like Pipes retain their stranglehold on the "information" that the American public is allowed to see.
<<Pipes is infinitely fulla crap.>>
Yes, he is. But he speaks for some infinitely powerful people.
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Americans' attitudes towards Palisrael come in four types: (1) Mostly Zionist Jews, for whom Israel is a spare country or a country home they might live in someday, and certainly want to visit, or visit again. They are small in numbers, but very, very rich and very very vocal. For most of them, Israel is a single-issue item: if you don;t vote for Eretz Israel, you don't get my vote. (2) Evangelicals, who see their unquestioning support of Israel to be a way of satisfying the Prophecy of Revelation and the Return of the King (Jesus). They can be single-issue voters, too, and (3) the average American, who could actually give a crap about any country outside of his own. About two-thirds will tell you that the largest city in Canada is Ontario. (4) a few academics and intellectuals who keep up on world events, but have very little power or influence.
I would think that Carter's book, in which he accurately describes the Israeli situation as 'apartheid', would be the most influential written recently, much more than any book about the Zionist lobby. Jimmy Carter was. after all, president, and has a lot of support among Americans for a variety of reasons, such as being the greatest ex-president the US has ever had.
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<<For most of them [Zionist American Jews], Israel is a single-issue item: if you don;t vote for Eretz Israel, you don't get my vote.>>
More to the point, you don't get any of their PAC's money. The vote is purely incidental.
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>>I don't think he is claiming superiority.<<
Of course not. It's the left who makes claims of superiority based on nothing more than their hatred for the other side. The question here is why does "Palestine" receive just over $billion, about a third of which comes from the USA, and what good does it do? If this support were taken away, would there be any support for the current "government" that represents these murdering terrorists? What would be the consequence? Good, bad, neither? It's just something to think about when considering how to remove the threat these people represent to America and the world.
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What threat to America and the world?
Just like the ANC was a terrorist group and they posed a massive threat to western democracy. ::)
What amazes me is that middle and upper class whites in America would allow the same thing to happen again - but no, not only allow it! Defend it!!
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>>What threat to America and the world?<<
You can't be serious. Well, you are, but one has to wonder how given past events anyone could deny the threat posed by Hamas.
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>>What threat to America and the world?<<
You can't be serious. Well, you are, but one has to wonder how given past events anyone could deny the threat posed by Hamas.
Hamas and Hezbollah pose as much threat to you and your family as the RIRA.
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>>Hamas and Hezbollah pose as much threat to you and your family as the RIRA.<<
I'm sure you had the same opinion prior to 9-11. The fact is you have no idea what threat they actually pose. Unless of course you're one of them. However, logic dictates that their threats be taken seriously in order to avoid repeating history.
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>>Hamas and Hezbollah pose as much threat to you and your family as the RIRA.<<
I'm sure you had the same opinion prior to 9-11. The fact is you have no idea what threat they actually pose. Unless of course you're one of them. However, logic dictates that their threats be taken seriously in order to avoid repeating history.
Repeating history? When did Hamas or Hezbollah have anything to do with the 9/11 attacks? As I recall, none of the attackers were even Palestinian.
In fact, one of the groups we're discussing are a Shia political faction and the group you're linking them to (ineffectively I might add) are Sunni zealots.
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It's just something to think about when considering how to remove the threat these people represent to America and the world.
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"These people" ie, the Palestinians pose NO THREAT to the US or anywhere else in the world except Israel.
Israel has provoked them by taking their homes and lands and treating them like crap for sixty years.
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JS, Mike, and H
(http://www2.hiren.info/desktopwallpapers/animals/hear-no-evil_see-no-evil_speak-no-evil.jpg)
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Interesting choice of monkeys for your little display.
I imagine that's about what the Israeli Government thinks of Palestinians. I'm sure that when an Israeli sniper targets a Palestinian child throwing rocks and puts a .50 cal round through his head - he sure as shit cannot be thinking of the kid as a human being.
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>>I imagine that's about what the Israeli Government thinks of Palestinians.<<
You tend to do a lot of imagining don't you. You imagine there's no terrorist threat and you imagine you know something about Pakistani politics, and you imagine terrorists tell the truth.
:D
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ou can't be serious. Well, you are, but one has to wonder how given past events anyone could deny the threat posed by Hamas.
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What has Hamas done to you lately?
Hamas has one enemy, Israel. Hezbollah is mostly focused o Israel as well, becasue Israel has a nasty habit of invading Lebanon and otherwise killing Lebanese.
Neither has done anything to any American in the US.
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>>What has Hamas done to you lately?<<
Thanks to President George W. Bush, nothing.
8)
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>>I imagine that's about what the Israeli Government thinks of Palestinians.<<
You tend to do a lot of imagining don't you. You imagine there's no terrorist threat and you imagine you know something about Pakistani politics, and you imagine terrorists tell the truth.
:D
No, I don't do much "imagining" as you describe it.
I am by no means an expert on Pakistani politics, or even very knowledgeable. I know a little about Nawaz Sharif, Bhutto, and Musharraf from reading and a couple with whom I am good friends and one happens to be Pakistani. If anything, I'm knowledgable about some recent history in the region, but by no means current affairs in Pakistan.
Secondly, there is a terrorist threat. In fact, there was one long before September 11th, 2001. The point is that it isn't much of a threat and should be weighed accordingly. More than that, groups like Hamas and Hezbollah existed before al-Qaeda and it does no good to simply lump all militant groups of the Middle East into one faction. When a nation acts as the Israelis have they are going to be met with the response they have received. The same goes for the United States. Imperialism has consequences.
Lastly, there is no "believing the terrorists tell the truth." Israeli soldiers do shoot Palestinians. They've also fired tank rounds, artillery shells, and dropped bombs into the Bantustans indiscriminately. All you have to do to understand that is open your eyes and look at the photos of the aftermath. You can live in the fantasy land of some 50's western where Israel is the good marshall and the Palestinians are dirty outlaws, but in the real world it is not so black and white.
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ou can't be serious. Well, you are, but one has to wonder how given past events anyone could deny the threat posed by Hamas.
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What has Hamas done to you lately?
Hamas has one enemy, Israel. Hezbollah is mostly focused o Israel as well, becasue Israel has a nasty habit of invading Lebanon and otherwise killing Lebanese.
Neither has done anything to any American in the US.
Good trivia question.
Prior to 9-11-01 which of these two orginisations had the bragging rights to being the biggest killer of Americans amoung all the worlds terror orginisations?
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More of your vivid imagination. It's really only interesting in the respect that we get to see how far gone some people are.
So Hamas in no threat, nor was Al Qaeda. Afterall, al Qaeda was thousands of mines away. They were a backwards bunch of guys who couldn't possibly reach us way over here in America.
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Interesting choice of monkeys for your little display.
I imagine that's about what the Israeli Government thinks of Palestinians. I'm sure that when an Israeli sniper targets a Palestinian child throwing rocks and puts a .50 cal round through his head - he sure as shit cannot be thinking of the kid as a human being.
Have you any indication that this has happened?
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Interesting choice of monkeys for your little display.
I imagine that's about what the Israeli Government thinks of Palestinians. I'm sure that when an Israeli sniper targets a Palestinian child throwing rocks and puts a .50 cal round through his head - he sure as shit cannot be thinking of the kid as a human being.
Have you any indication that this has happened?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52966-2004May24.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/23/1085250870992.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/04/mideast/index.html
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More of your vivid imagination. It's really only interesting in the respect that we get to see how far gone some people are.
So Hamas in no threat, nor was Al Qaeda. Afterall, al Qaeda was thousands of mines away. They were a backwards bunch of guys who couldn't possibly reach us way over here in America.
Rich, I just wanted to tell you that I find you highly inspirational.
Seriously.
Everything you write in here and every article you post convinces me more completely of the opposing viewpoint.
One example: I never would have considered voting for Obama before the Frontpage article you posted and defended. Now, if he receives the nomination, I would definitely consider it.
Thanks.
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Interesting choice of monkeys for your little display.
I imagine that's about what the Israeli Government thinks of Palestinians. I'm sure that when an Israeli sniper targets a Palestinian child throwing rocks and puts a .50 cal round through his head - he sure as shit cannot be thinking of the kid as a human being.
Have you any indication that this has happened?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52966-2004May24.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/23/1085250870992.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/04/mideast/index.html
Hmmmmm....
Much nicer than suicide bombing for the purpose of killing children.
OK , not very much nicer , nor much diffrent in purpose .
I do not see a Palestinian right to complain , as if they were renouncing such tactics themselves.
If there is a Palestinian complaint it is that their tactics are less effective , not more righteous.
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More of your vivid imagination. It's really only interesting in the respect that we get to see how far gone some people are.
So Hamas in no threat, nor was Al Qaeda. Afterall, al Qaeda was thousands of mines away. They were a backwards bunch of guys who couldn't possibly reach us way over here in America.
Rich, I just wanted to tell you that I find you highly inspirational.
Seriously.
Everything you write in here and every article you post convinces me more completely of the opposing viewpoint.
One example: I never would have considered voting for Obama before the Frontpage article you posted and defended. Now, if he receives the nomination, I would definitely consider it.
Thanks.
I like him too and I hereby agree that he deserves your praise.
Even tho I don't think he is right , he is relying on a very good quality of persuasion and use of logic and facts to bolster his case.
I commend his example .
Now If only I could talk him over..........nah .... I would have to search up another really good liberal to fill the slot.
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Hmmmmm....
Much nicer than suicide bombing for the purpose of killing children.
OK , not very much nicer , nor much diffrent in purpose .
I do not see a Palestinian right to complain , as if they were renouncing such tactics themselves.
If there is a Palestinian complaint it is that their tactics are less effective , not more righteous.
You make the same mistake the British did. Not every Irishman was a member or sympathizer with the IRA. Most were just people like you and I, with families and jobs, trying to make ends meet.
The Palestinians are human beings, with families, jobs (if they are lucky enough to find one), and trying to scratch out a living in the dire poverty that Israel is kind enough to permit them to live in. Imagine someone you love doing a mundane task only to be shot through the head with a sniper's bullet. Imagine being rounded up and arrested because you are the wrong race or religion and you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - years of your life in prison while your family has to find a way to support themselves.
Imagine being told that the home your family has owned for a three generations is about to be bulldozed and you and your family are being deported to a place you've never lived. Congratulations, you're a citizen of the West Bank now. You've never lived here. Your kids once went to really good schools, but now they have shit for schools to attend. There are no public services to speak of. Oh, you aren't allowed on the good highways, you have to drive on the crap roads reserved for your race. But you can sleep well at night knowing that your former family home will become a newly built set of homes only available to Jewish buyers.
But no...it isn't anything like apartheid...
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>>Everything you write in here and every article you post convinces me more completely of the opposing viewpoint.<<
Does your husband know? You had better check with him first.
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<<But no...it isn't anything like apartheid...>>
No, of course not. How ridiculous. But funny how they go all ape-shit when anyone dares to call it apartheid.
What scares them is that little by little, Americans are finally starting to speak out the truth about Israel. The A-word is coming out of the closet.
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>>Everything you write in here and every article you post convinces me more completely of the opposing viewpoint.<<
Does your husband know? You had better check with him first.
Sure. I'll discuss it with him and see if I can make it my personal jihad. ::)