Author Topic: Let's just throw the rule-book away  (Read 9079 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2010, 12:09:56 PM »
Members of teachers unions do not dictate curriculum anywhere I have been. Curriculum decisions come from the accreditation bodies and state legislatures as interpreted by administrators. There are good administrators and lame administrators, the lame ones being those who wish to "dumb down" the curriculum in order to pass more incompetent students through the system.

I recall one Dept. Head I had briefly that told me, "Your problem is that you are trying to teach them Spanish."

I said, "Of course, that is my job: I am being paid to teach them Spanish: what do you think I am supposed to do?"

He thought for a while and told me, "Your job is to get them ready to learn Spanish."

I said, "well, if you think that is my job, get the VP for Academic Affairs to tell me that in writing,and I will do just that."

Which of course, he could not do, and did not do. The VP was very supportive of those of us who tried to raise standards, and was far too smart to put something like that in writing.

There may be some incompetent teachers in teachers' unions. My experience in the high schools where there were unions was that the best teachers belonged to the unions, and the poorest ones (who were always making sure they used up all their 'sick days' by the end of the year) did not bother to pay their union dues, mostly because they did nothing that was not absolutely required.

I suggest that education in the US will never be accomplished by declaring war on teachers or their organizations. Nor will the right wingers spring for the cost of educating better teachers that agree with them.

We have all the resources in this country to have a first class educational system. But the culture is opposed to it, and a lot of people won't support it with the money or encouragement needed.

The last president of my university, a Jamaican-American with a Jamaican/Panamanian wife wanted desperately to improve the academic reputation of the university. His last plan was to import students from China to add more of an international character to the
student body. He made a trip to various cities in the interior of China that were holding education fairs to recruit students with a good friend of mine, a Taiwanese education professor who spoke Mandarin. They distributed a thousand pamphlets and got maybe 70 replies from interested Chinese students. When he returned, he presented a rather elaborate plan to the Board of Trustees, who thought that he had wasted too much money, and they fired him. No Chinese students were enrolled as a result: the entire plan was abandoned. The same Board also hired some 'image consultants' to 'rebrand' the university. They charged a bunch of money, and presented their gung-ho preliminary plans to the assembled faculty once. But none of what they proposed was implemented, because the Board decided that it wouldn't work. That seemed pretty obvious from the start to me and many of the faculty, but we were willing to cooperate and go along with whatever was required.

The thing is that a university gets a good reputation because it has a lot of really good students, who inspire the rest of the student body as much as or more than a good faculty. This attracts more studious students, and that attracts more money in grants and such. The thing is that the money is needed to attract the good students FIRST, and they won't give it to you until you have already attained the reputation sought. It is a vicious circle.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2010, 12:35:57 PM »
Members of teachers unions do not dictate curriculum anywhere I have been.

Nor have I ever specified "rank and file" members.  I have ALWAYS referenced Union Leadership as the cancer.  But thank you for helping to make my point, that the curriculum is largely handed down by Government

« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 12:44:21 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2010, 12:55:05 PM »
Quote
As I said, hard to be "informed", when at the earliest ages the "information" you're being provided is educating you as to a flawed premise of both the Government's functions, and of the importance of the Constitution

SO your position is the American people are victims of themselves? That the wounds are self inflicted?

Ummm, you must have completely missed the post you responded to, even though you left it in the response above.  That's impressive.  Self inflicted and "victims of themselves" would have not had any Government involvement.  Government's self interest in keeping themselves in power, with folks like the Teachers' Unions dictating curriculum, would be the targets of your blame game.  If you wish to attach some snippet of victimhood upon the populace, it would be in the form of gross naivete, and the perpetuation of the ignorant

And the constitution says:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Which to me means that all the power of the government, comes from the people.
Of course that interpretation may be to constructionist for you.

So yes, if the government is truly an entity, separate from the people and not comprised of the people, then the people are not to blame. But that is not the case. So yes, the people are victims of their own making.

sirs

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2010, 01:36:53 PM »
Nice try, but I'm not buying it, outside of my above reference to the ignorance of the Average Joe, facilitated precisely by the education of Average Joey, at the hands of Government and in recent years, that of the teachers' unions.  And hint, constructionist has nothing to do with it.  If it did, there'd be no federal Dept of Education or the exponential spending provided for Public Education
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2010, 01:40:57 PM »
Nice try, but I'm not buying it, outside of my above reference to the ignorance of the Average Joe, facilitated precisely by the education of Average Joey, at the hands of Government and in recent years, that of the teachers' unions.  And hint, constructionist has nothing to do with it.  If it did, there'd be no federal Dept of Education or the exponential spending provided for Public Education

So we the people does not mean we the people?

Gotcha

sirs

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2010, 01:43:05 PM »
I was being a twit with this last response.  I've retracted it, and will preface the position that we're just going to have to agree to disagree.  My apologies
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 01:58:16 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2010, 03:32:53 PM »
I was being a twit with this last response.  I've retracted it, and will preface the position that we're just going to have to agree to disagree.  My apologies

I have no idea what you are talking about. i am guessing that you posted something then thought better of it.

But what is it that you want to agree to disagree about?

What the phrase "we the people" means?


sirs

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2010, 03:47:49 PM »
I was being a twit with this last response.  I've retracted it, and will preface the position that we're just going to have to agree to disagree.  My apologies

i am guessing that you posted something then thought better of it.

Yes


But what is it that you want to agree to disagree about?

The idea that "the people" are the ones I blame, apparently because the Government is a representation of "the people" who elected them, I suppose.  The only thing we're gonna come close to agreeing on is the self inflicted wounds, by electing the same elitists into office.  But I already addressed that in my reference to the perpetual ignorance being bestowed upon our multitude of Average Joeys, which is where I place the blame


What the phrase "we the people" means?

no.  The dig about constructionist was also duely noted
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2010, 03:51:41 PM »
So the agreement is that the people ( you, me and anyone else who takes the time to vote ) are ultimately responsible for the direction this country has taken?

sirs

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2010, 04:18:29 PM »
Yea, that's pretty close to the only thing we're gonna come close to agreeing on is the self inflicted wounds, by electing the same elitists into office.  But I already addressed that in my reference to the perpetual ignorance being bestowed upon our multitude of Average Joeys, which is where I truely place the blame
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2010, 04:58:44 PM »
So are you saying we the people have no input into what is taught at schools?

sirs

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2010, 05:00:49 PM »
Nope, didn't say that either.  We have lots of potential for "input".  Actual follow-thru with that input is what's largely absent
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2010, 06:01:13 PM »
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Actual follow-thru with that input is what's largely absent

So the schools do not follow through with the directives from elected school boards?



sirs

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2010, 06:29:34 PM »
"Directives" from local school boards are more than likely 95+% handed down from Fed/State/Local Government and Union run school boards, while 5%, if that, can be considered "input" from "we the people"
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Let's just throw the rule-book away
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2010, 08:11:14 PM »
"Directives" from local school boards are more than likely 95+% handed down from Fed/State/Local Government and Union run school boards, while 5%, if that, can be considered "input" from "we the people"

But we elect the school boards and in some states elect the state school superintendent, if not we elect the governor and or the legislatures that appoint the superintendent.

So how is it that the people are not responsible for the results of their votes? And how is it that these officials doing the peoples business are not held accountable?