Author Topic: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released  (Read 9612 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2010, 07:21:57 PM »
NONE of which was going on within sight of the helicopter.

So? As I said, these are soldiers, not police. Part of their unit was reported as under attack, so they were in "combat mode". The rules for police are different, and you keep trying to apply those rules to soldiers.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2010, 07:38:48 PM »
<<Do you beleive that the American Soldiers really have nothing to fear from the helpless Iriqui fighter?>>

They might have a lot to fear from a poorly armed Iraqi fighter, but these guys were so obviously not fighters, for the reasons I've given in exquisite detail, that it's pointless to argue about "Iraqi fighters."  As I've said, these "fighters" were never observed to fire a shot, were not in firing position, did not take cover when the helicopters appeared, did not attack or even point their weapons at the helicopters either before or after the helicopters launched their attack.  

Furthermore the demeanour of the crew was totally inconsistent with the demeanour of men under fire, in danger of their lives.  

Furthermore, you and your co-defenders of these murderous swine make no attempt at all to explain how the "innocent" army fights like a lion against the release of actual videos of the event.

<<The poorly trained and poorly armed resistance causes no worry to the mirthfull professionals that they attempt to attack in all futility?>>

As if there was even a shred of evidence of an attempt to attack.  The poorest trained resistance in the world would know how to take cover, take up firing positions and return fire.  There is nothing I have yet seen that would indicate the Iraqi resistance are too dumb to  be able to at least attempt to do so.

<<Would you like to recruit yourself to our propaganda force?>>

There's only one real job requirement for the American Army propaganda force - - a complete, total and unconditional lack of shame.  The ability to tell barefaced lies with a perfectly straight face.  "Who ya gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?"  I'm working on it, but I still don't think I'd be able to qualify.

You're a natural for another "propaganda force" yourself, but unfortunately were born too late to be of any use to Dr. Goebbels.  I can imagine you, BSB, CU4 and Ami assigned by the good doctor to "investigate" the "so-called gas chambers" of the "work camp" at Auschwitz.  Your joint investigative report would be darkly hilarious - -

"Some of the guest workers suffered extreme anaphylactic reaction to the delousing powder in the shower stations and unfortunately a few of them died before emergency medical teams could reach the scene."

I used to be disgusted, now I am just amused.  At least I will give all of you an A for effort.

sirs

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2010, 07:40:13 PM »
I'm surprised it took this long for Tee to pull out the Nazi comparisons
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BSB

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2010, 07:47:23 PM »
What an asshole you are, snowblower.

I never made one comment one way or the other regarding this action. All I said was that I've seen soldier joke while being shoot at. Yet now, this stupid fucking asshole from Canada, is saying I'd be at home in the death camps.

BT, be a leader, get rid of this insulting jerk and his constant hate speech. .

Michael Tee

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2010, 07:49:40 PM »
<<I never made one comment one way or the other regarding this action. All I said was that I've seen soldier joke while being shoot at. Yet now, this stupid fucking asshole from Canada, is saying I'd be at home in the death camps.>>

What I really said was that you'd accept the official explanations and blindly defend an obvious case of cold-blooded murder exactly as you, CU4, plane and Ami are doing in this thread.

I DID NOT say that you would be at home in a death camp.  Read the fucking post.

BSB

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2010, 08:00:06 PM »
I defended NOTHING, asshole. I said nothing about the action.

Plane

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2010, 09:52:27 PM »
<<I never made one comment one way or the other regarding this action. All I said was that I've seen soldier joke while being shoot at. Yet now, this stupid fucking asshole from Canada, is saying I'd be at home in the death camps.>>

What I really said was that you'd accept the official explanations and blindly defend an obvious case of cold-blooded murder exactly as you, CU4, plane and Ami are doing in this thread.

I DID NOT say that you would be at home in a death camp.  Read the fucking post.



I don't think I have defended anything yet.

I am refuseing to join in a condemnation at this point.

All of the evidence we have seen so far is presented by partizens who have an axe to grind , have had a chance to edit and who do not know much about what they are looking at.

Michael Tee

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2010, 12:51:02 AM »
At this point (see my previous posts in this thread) the evidence of criminal action is so overwhelming that refusing to condemn is the equivalent of defending.

Plane

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2010, 05:39:40 AM »
Well, apparently it's not as cut-and-dried as I first thought it was.

Here's the Wikipedia account of the entire episode, including the aftermath:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike


Quote
At this point (see my previous posts in this thread) the evidence of criminal action is so overwhelming that refusing to condemn is the equivalent of defending.

Could I wait for the defense to be made?

Stray Pooch

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2010, 08:04:38 AM »
Bullshit.  You saw enough to convince any reasonable man that this was a massacre. 

Begs the question.

Furthermore, when the army thought it could hide the tapes successfully, they claimed this was a battle.


Begs the question.  Assignment of motivation.

The tapes were released over a month ago.  There was nothing resembling a battle on them.

Opinion.

 
They've had a month to produce the minutes before the massacre and show them as one huge battle

Fact, assuming time period is correct.

but of course have not done so.

Fact assuming evidence described has not been presented.  But depending on intent, the qualifier "of course" potentially begs the question.


This is obviously a documented massacre

Begs the question.


and there is no evidence to the contrary.

Speculation.


Your arguments to the contrary are lame and pathetic.

Opinion.


I bet you don't believe them yourself.  You are just grasping at straws.


Ad hominem.  Speculation.  Assignment of motivation.


Maybe there is something else that would make it not a massacre . . . Yeah, WHAT?  Where is it?  Why was the Army hiding those tapes forever if some part of it shows there was no massacre?

Valid.

Those lying bastards know God-damn well there is no other evidence

Begs the question.  Speculation.  Assignment of motivation.

and you know it too,

Ad hominem.  Assignment of motivation.

but continue to make lame and pathetic arguments,

Opinion.

maybe one of those guys fired - - only nobody sees it. 

Valid.

Tell me, did all that laughing and joking sound to you like these guys were in a battle, being shot at, could be shot out of the sky and killed from one second to the next?  Did you hear even the slightest concern for their own safety in all that time?  Anything in the tone of their voices to indicate they were in a battle, were under attack?    BULLSHIT!!!

Valid.


If that tape didn't convince you that this was a massacre, then nothing could convince you that it was a massacre.

Begs the question.  Speculation.  Ad hominem.


Yet on far less evidence, you are willing to believe almost anything of "Islamonazis" ec.

Ad hominem, assignment of motivation.


You are just totally destroying your own credibility to defend a bunch of lying, murdeing cowards. 

Ad hominem.  Opinion.

You need, as an American, to step up to the plate, to denounce these most obvious crimes for what they are, cold-blooded murder,

Begs the question.


otherwise you become morally complicit in the crime.

Valid only if preceding premise is true.


The entire argument included only a few indisputable facts and a few valid arguments.  Those alone did very little to advance the theme.  The valid points are disputable, but rational.  I would specifically dispute that the "laughing and joking" do not indicate that this is not a battle or that there is no fear on the part of the participants.  It is very common to deal with high stress by laughing and joking to relieve it.  When you have training and/or experience in these kinds of high-stress situations, you handle them differently than would an untrained person.  I have listened to tapes of airline pilots in emergencies.  The calm professionalism in their voices belies the mortal danger they are in.  They often crack a joke or two to relief the stress.  Years ago a passenger plane had its hydraulics go out and had to land without that control.  The plane crash-landed and several people were killed, though many more survived.  As it was landing, the ATC told the pilot "You are cleared to land on runway . . ."  He responded. "Oh, you're gonna be particular, huh?  You want it on a runway?"   He was devastated after this landing, lamenting about the passengers "he" killed, but refusing to accept the accolades he received as a hero for the lives he truly did save.  But during the actual emergency he kept calm and cool, and laughed about the predicament he was in.  If one of those soldiers started in joking, joining in would be a rational response to an irrational situation.

Aside from those few points that are valid, though, most of this post was just poorly reasoned opinion.
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Stray Pooch

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2010, 08:25:33 AM »
Actually, I missed one. 

[Quote from: Michael Tee on June 16, 2010, 11:54:02 PM]
Maybe there is something else that would make it not a massacre . . . Yeah, WHAT?  Where is it?  Why was the Army hiding those tapes forever if some part of it shows there was no massacre?
[/quote]

I labeled that as valid.  In totality it is, but "Why was the army hiding those tapes forever . . ." begs the question and assigns motivation.  The entire argument cited in that quote, however, is valid if we simply say "Why did the army not release the tape?"  It is valid to ask what evidence exists to support the argument that this was a legal action.


I haven't watched the tape, but there is another thing that makes me wonder.  MT claims that people were "not taking cover" during the attack and cites this as evidence that these are not soldiers.  I would argue that this tends to lean in the other direction.  The natural reaction to fire even from an untrained civilian is to try to get away and hide.  There are only two situations in which this natural tendency might be overridden:  a soldier in performance of his duties or a suicidal person.  If these people were truly not seeking cover, they may have wished to be martyrs.  This DOES happen in that culture.  Otherwise, I am either misunderstanding his argument or these folks were just plain NUTS!
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Michael Tee

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2010, 12:27:18 PM »
I'll just take issue with a few points that Pooch addressed:

Hiding or suppression of evidence is accepted by every court in the English-speaking world as evidence of guilt.  In the case of Conrad Black, the Canadian financier, in Chicago, the fact that Black and his associates were caught on videotape removing boxes of potentially incriminating documents surreptitiously was a major blow against them in their fraud trial.  It's similar to flight, in that it shows consciousness of guilt.  Technically, it might in fact be "assignment of motivation" as you claim, but the assignment (to consciousness of guilt) is so obvious and so logical that only that one assignment is realistically possible.  It's like a drowning man grabbing a floating timber - - is it "assignment of motive" to say that he did it to save himself from drowning?  Sure it is, but it is an assignment that is so likely to be the correct one that the conclusion is inevitably accepted.  (Although it's always possible, albeit difficult, to contradict that assignment with contrary evidence, none of which exists in this case.)

<<I haven't watched the tape, but there is another thing that makes me wonder.  MT claims that people were "not taking cover" during the attack and cites this as evidence that these are not soldiers.  I would argue that this tends to lean in the other direction.  The natural reaction to fire even from an untrained civilian is to try to get away and hide.  There are only two situations in which this natural tendency might be overridden:  a soldier in performance of his duties or a suicidal person.  If these people were truly not seeking cover, they may have wished to be martyrs.  This DOES happen in that culture.  Otherwise, I am either misunderstanding his argument or these folks were just plain NUTS!>>

They may have wished to be martyrs?  All twelve of them?  And in their wish to become martyrs, they just stood in the open, not taking cover, not assuming firing positions, not firing back, and waited for the American helicopters to blow them away?  That reminds me of the fascist explanation for the so-called "suicide" of Salvador Allende, the democratically elected President of Chile, martyred in a CIA coup, that "He shot himself 28 times in the chest, pausing only once to re-load."  Come on, Pooch, surely you can do better than that. 

Too bad that you didn't watch the tape, BTW.  You would see no danger on the ground, no fear in the chopper.  It's as obvious as the day is long.  No "expert advice" can convince you otherwise.  It's like the "experts" dissecting the beating of Rodney King - - the pigs are beating the living shit out of the guy, and the "experts" are discussing the action one frame at a time explaining how it's not really the vicious beating that it appears to be.  "Who ya gonna believe, me or your own lyin' eyes?"  As long as the Pentagon could keep the tape hidden from the eyes of the public, they could get away with their outrageous bullshit - - the pedestrians were killed in "a battle," the helicopter crews were in mortal danger.  Once you see the tapes, you can tell instantly how outrageous those lies were.  OF COURSE!!!  That was the whole point of holding onto the tapes, of concealing them from public view.

It is impossible for any honest and reasonably intelligent person to see the tapes and believe the Pentagon's lying bullshit.  End of story.

Amianthus

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2010, 12:45:47 PM »
It's like the "experts" dissecting the beating of Rodney King - - the pigs are beating the living shit out of the guy, and the "experts" are discussing the action one frame at a time explaining how it's not really the vicious beating that it appears to be.

You continue to compare the actions of soldiers with the actions of police. They are not trained the same, nor do they have the same "rules of engagement". They cannot be expected to act similarly in similar situations. Soldiers are trained to shoot first and ask questions later.

As the character Bruce Willis played in "Siege" said when using martial law in NYC was being discussed:

General William Devereaux: The Army is a broad sword, not a scalpel. Trust me, senator - you do not want the Army in an American city.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2010, 12:59:29 PM »
<<You continue to compare the actions of soldiers with the actions of police. They are not trained the same, nor do they have the same "rules of engagement". They cannot be expected to act similarly in similar situations.>>


You missed the point completely of my Rodney King example.  I was not comparing or equating police action with military action.  I was merely providing an example of how the plain unvarnished truth of a videotape can be dissected and picked apart by "experts" in an attempt to portray the obvious truth as something entirely different.

<< Soldiers are trained to shoot first and ask questions later.>>

On that theory, they should massacre the entire population of Baghdad.  They are not trained to shoot unarmed civilians who present no threat.  Particularly in a country where they are justifying their presence as an attempt to protect the citizens.

sirs

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Re: New Tapes of Another U.S. Massacre of Civilians About to be Released
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2010, 01:05:16 PM »
A) as your link already provided, there was and has been a constant threat to soldiers in that area

B) you still have provided no proof what-so-ever that civilians are legally permitted to carry AK's for self defense

and so goes your theory down in flames, yet again.  Ironically, it is impossible for any honest and reasonably intelligent person to accept your opinions without even some evidentiary support
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle