Author Topic: Iran is going to do us in  (Read 8221 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2007, 12:11:40 PM »
<<I think that if this had happened with Americans there could have been an investigation and a trial and even possibly a conviction. I don't see the equivilence you are pointing at.>>

There WAS an investigation and a trial and a conviction and an appeal and an overturned conviction and in the end some low-level schmuck went through a rigged system, somebody got a slap on the wrist.  It's EXACTLY like America.

Cynthia

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2007, 12:58:34 AM »
MT,

Google, or not to google....doesn't matter in the end. I disagree with your bold statement that the Iranian Army is on any similar par of the American Army in terms of torture etc.

I guess it's simple. Americans are not as sophisticated to hate as the fanatics of the Iranian empire.......Persian symbol.....paisley?
Clinch your fist.....take a look at the reverse side of the pinkie finger....curled up in that fist.
IT's the shape of the paisley....yep the culture pop design that drapes our hippie clothes to this day. Power is the meaning of that symbol and it comes from the Persian. Power is even in the thread of our fabric, literally.

Point?

Power is the point.
Watch very carefully. . .
we can only wish we Americans had such hate...and a need for power....we wouldn't be in this mess. ..or at least we would be hated even more....irony...nothin' but irony....at it's best.

We have not the hate that the fundies in the middle east conjure up and teach with Mickey Mouse Club senitment.
\Point?

You can compare the Americans to Middles eastern extremists all you want..but we will never measure up...

fortunately...or unfortunately.

Yea for the joy JOY that is our spirit.
We laugh....Iran....laugh? Yea...
at the suckers called Americans.
Americans....we can never understand the true militant hate that is in the Persian psychie.....Not that all Iranians are sick. God, no. Allah No....
I prayed to Allah when I was married to Amir. There is nothing sick about a people who love their God.

There is something sick about the fight that is out of ignorance and sickness.
I pray we don't find ourselves in that boat someday. ...we just can't hate our own. Surely, the Iranians do not HATE "their" own.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2007, 10:13:29 AM »
Does anyone else find it utterly laughable that some anonymous clown who wants to start a third war in Asia at God knows what cost, should to choose to call himself "Christians United4Less Government?

Who are you united to, "Christians"? How many of you are there, anyway?

Or is it just you and the wrinkly old corpse of Ronald Reagan?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2007, 11:29:33 AM »
Cynthia, I googled around and found out that Paisley prints are named for the Scottish town of Paisley where the manufacture of these Indian patterns began, inspired by soldiers of the British Empire who returned home with shawls and similar items bearing the same patterns.  I think if the Persians wanted a clenched fist to be their symbol, they were talented enough to have just drawn a clenched fist, using the last phalange of the pinkie finger when viewed sideways in a fist would not have conveyed the message at all.  Personally, I thought the design came from nature and would be a leaf, a flower petal or a tear-drop.  Never in a million years would it occur to me to associate that design with a clenched fist.

I know lots of Iranians here.  They're all kinds.  Mostly refugees from the Islamic Revolution and admirers of the Shah, one of the worst  torturers and murderers of recent history and a puppet of American and British interests.   We argue a lot about the Shah but pretty much agree on the current regime.  None of them has anything against the State of Israel, which they all seem to admire, and can't understand why I have any objections to Jewish policy on the West Bank.  Some of the older ones seem to see the injustice of it, but have extremely negative opinions of the Arabs which I think they use to mitigate their objections to the injustices.  A lot of the younger ones are completely apolitical or at least have no interest at all in Middle Eastern politics.

Your comments on hate are interesting.  I think they're probably true, but you lost sight of one important consideration:  to really hate, you have to be an underdog.  You have to be somebody who is fucked over repeatedly by more powerful interests, treated with contempt and disrespect, seen relatives and friends just like you tortured and murdered, exploited and cast aside.  The Iranians and the Arabs have been sucking it up for years from the Americans, British and Jews and they are naturally filled with hate.  Even so there is no evidence of American, British or Jewish prisoners of the Arabs or Iranians being tortured.  There is not a single instance of Americans taken prisoner in the war in Iraq being tortured.  But it is Americans and British who torture THEIR prisoners.  It is the Supreme Court of Israel which has legalized torture of Arab prisoners. 

The torture used routinely by U.S. troops and then hidden from public view is not an expression of their hatred so much as it is a cold-blooded instrument of domination, of inducing fear among potential Resistance fighters, of racism (showing these "ragheads" or "hajis" or "sand niggers" who is the boss.)   It's also, to the effect that it's used as a military tactic of dubious effectiveness, an indicator of the moral collapse of America, as obviously the moral scruples that prevented them from using this tactic in both World Wars has by now totally evaporated.

Cynthia

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2007, 11:20:14 PM »
Well, then I have to say that my ex husband is to blame. He told me that the paisley is Persian born.
So goes the lies of the IRanian...hence.....One of many.
Trust? Perhaps Google is wrong, but I have to say probably not.
Personal experience has told me that there are many lies in the Persian Amir...meaning King".
Wonder if that's truth.King=Amir.

Anyway...I will read the rest of your reply and get back to you.
So far all I can tell you is that I disagree with your assessment that Americans are in the same playground of torture as the Persian/Iranian.
C*

Cynthia

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2007, 11:41:53 PM »
There is not a single instance of Americans taken prisoner in the war in Iraq being tortured.  But it is Americans and British who torture THEIR prisoners.  It is the Supreme Court of Israel which has legalized torture of Arab prisoners. 

Really?
Hell, I was tortured beyond belief by my husband....and I am not whining....He is about 60 now. Not to make a broad prejudice statement against the culture, but I would venture to guess that the American male does not consider women to be lower than low in terms of respect in the way the Iranian does. I lived it, and so did my American girlfriends at the time...1972-1975. The Savak were spying on us daily in our own city here. Past history...true...and water under the death bridge, but one has to be naive as hell to think that the middle eastern male in general terms does not have a tight fist hold on his woman. ..and the woman likes it that way. There are still many Iranian men in the world who view women as less than the dirt they walk on, MT. If you have never seen the fillm "Not without My Daughter"..albeit a Sally Field "flick"....one must. It's a true story and one that I lived myself. Ironically, my ex husband is a doctor and the treatment I endured with his own people in Europe/ not in Iran/ was no different. ....absolute shockingly abusive. Ok...so that's not my point in this debate...true, and I don't know the in's and out's of the entire culture of the current war, but I have to say there are threads of violence and deception woven within even the most Americanized" Iranian male. Moody is one example. He turned on his wife without blinking an eye.
There is a thread.....a thread of hate that is underlying in many middle easterners, MT.
I am not here to blanketly spread the blanket of hate throughout the entire Islamic world....of course not...but, there is a loyalty that will kill and kill again with no questions asked in the Mid East.....That's the bad news. I just want to reinforce here that there is more to the story. Be careful. You never know who is behind that curtain or male blinded veil, MT.
My ex husband's father was killed during the revolution because he was a Shah supporter. HE was an Admiral in the Iranian Navy.
Sad.....Amir's mother gave birth to him when she was 13. She traveled through the Turkish mountains to live in Paris and escaped the torture she too had to endure. (and all in the 50's when one didn't even get divorced in America, let alone in Iran!
She ended up marrying again in France and lived a happy life with her new French husband. But she was never allowed to see her child, Amir. I met her almost at the same time he met her again...after so many years....\
Yes, there are many things we all as human beings have in common...but there are many things we have to be aware of and that is that the Persian people have suffered a lot more than we.
Of course, not all Persians are going to be the same...but in those days....there was a hell of a revolution. Who's in charge in Iran now....young American Iranians? NO.
Life for women was pretty good under the Shah, even though life was hell. And life is bright now? Nope.
So, who's the lesser of those evils....

Pretty much no one is going to be a perfect segment of the global peace keeping celebratory party goers..but I can tell you right now that one should be aware of those hidden agendas and hidden historical and down right frightening paradigm shifts that bite ya in the ass!
They will.
Cindy

Cynthia

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2007, 11:57:02 PM »
Torture of hostages. Torture in general? Who's to argue that anyone who partakes is 100% wrong, by the way. Yes, I was not a hostage.....except when I was locked up not allowed to leave the apt. But torture of soldiers...?
Perhaps the Middle Easterner is clean as Mr. Clean when it comes to not torturing. But the heads and private parts that have been cut and misguided will disagree, MT.

Cynthia

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2007, 12:07:52 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paisley_%28design%29

I googled it too, MT.
I hope this comes out.....Wikipedia.....soup source of evidence.

Michael Tee

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2007, 12:08:11 AM »
<<Well, then I have to say that my ex husband is to blame. He told me that the paisley is Persian born. >>

I think you misunderstood me.  The design definitely came from the Middle East or Asia and might well have been Persian originally.  By the time the British soldiers picked it up, it had probably found its way from the original source to many places in the British Empire.  It was only the NAME that was Scottish. 

Henny

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2007, 08:14:11 AM »
Well, then I have to say that my ex husband is to blame. He told me that the paisley is Persian born.
So goes the lies of the IRanian...hence.....One of many.
Trust? Perhaps Google is wrong, but I have to say probably not.
Personal experience has told me that there are many lies in the Persian Amir...meaning King".
Wonder if that's truth.King=Amir.

Anyway...I will read the rest of your reply and get back to you.
So far all I can tell you is that I disagree with your assessment that Americans are in the same playground of torture as the Persian/Iranian.
C*

Ameer/Amir means Prince

_JS

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2007, 09:36:32 AM »
Quote
Not to make a broad prejudice statement against the culture, but I would venture to guess that the American male does not consider women to be lower than low in terms of respect in the way the Iranian does.

A woman very close to me was abused. Not only was she physically beaten, but she was mentally and emotionally tortured as well. He had certain times that he estimated it would take her to drive to a specific place and if she was late - well, you can guess. She had weekly weight checks and much more.

This was at the hands of a good ol' Tennessee white American patriotic male. So, though I realise that Persian culture is vastly different in its view of women and their roles, I think any broad cultural generalisations are not valid.
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Amianthus

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2007, 12:38:25 PM »
That's how it works, Professor.  People got brave when Russia was in ashes.  400 miles deep, and burned to the ground.  Millions dead.  And that's when the Red Army really started to fight.

Standard Russian military doctrine. Fall back, continue to fall back, scorched earth policy (the Russians did most of the burning). When winter starts, counterattack. The enemy will be out of food and unwilling to fight in a cold they're not used to.

They used this technique numerous times.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Cynthia

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2007, 01:28:55 AM »
Cynthia, I googled around and found out that Paisley prints are named for the Scottish town of Paisley where the manufacture of these Indian patterns began, inspired by soldiers of the British Empire who returned home with shawls and similar items bearing the same patterns.

With all due respect, MT, You never once mentioned that the Persian's had anything to do with the paisley, let alone the clinched fist theory. God, I hate to say this, but perhpas Amir was right.

AS for Amir meaning PRince.....I was told King....Henny. Oh well...frankly...once a prince always a prince..but Amir was not a prince.

JS>.. would rather have been "hit" by a Kentuck hick than to be almost killed by a Persian...all because I was not only a woman but an American woman.
Oh well.

Plane

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2007, 05:25:07 AM »
That's how it works, Professor.  People got brave when Russia was in ashes.  400 miles deep, and burned to the ground.  Millions dead.  And that's when the Red Army really started to fight.

Standard Russian military doctrine. Fall back, continue to fall back, scorched earth policy (the Russians did most of the burning). When winter starts, counterattack. The enemy will be out of food and unwilling to fight in a cold they're not used to.

They used this technique numerous times.


I don't know if they ment to or whether this was a natural consequence of the terrain , I think that the Russian sldier deonstrated an awsome tenacity and tolerance for bad conditions , and Stalin was an idiot.

Henny

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Re: Iran is going to do us in
« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2007, 08:41:35 AM »
AS for Amir meaning PRince.....I was told King....Henny. Oh well...frankly...once a prince always a prince..but Amir was not a prince.

Cynthia, I am fluent in Arabic. Seriously, it means prince.

I haven't been following this entire thread, but it seems that you're talking about an Iranian? Although I am not fluent in Farsi, I am pretty sure the same meaning is true in both languages. It's possible, however, that there are multiple meanings of the word.