Author Topic: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.  (Read 12287 times)

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BT

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2006, 08:31:21 PM »
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For starters, and I'll leave it there, a successful state need not be democratic, eh?

So you are advocating a dismantling of the present democratically elected Iraqi government, because being democratically elected was one of my conditions.


domer

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2006, 08:33:21 PM »
I'm saying that there's a very good chance that the fucking government will fall, and that what results might not meet Bush's specs.

Plane

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2006, 08:37:19 PM »
I'm saying that there's a very good chance that the fucking government will fall, and that what results might not meet Bush's specs.


Is it unimportant that a strong majority of the people in Iraq voted ?


The people who do not want democracy in Iraq  are by definition a violent minority.

domer

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2006, 08:40:56 PM »
"We" should fight their fight?

Plane

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2006, 08:45:24 PM »
"We" should fight their fight?


Not a fan of JFK?


http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres56.html


Quote
"... And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe—the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God. 2
  We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans—born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage—and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world. 3
  Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. 4
  This much we pledge—and more. ..."

domer

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2006, 08:46:46 PM »
Not in the idiotic sense that you're misusing him.

BT

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2006, 08:51:16 PM »
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I'm saying that there's a very good chance that the fucking government will fall, and that what results might not meet Bush's specs.

Perhaps you should reframe your question. You asked what we thought, not what Bush thought. I gave my conditions for victory.

Plane

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2006, 08:53:36 PM »
Not in the idiotic sense that you're misusing him.


I included a link so that the context would be availible .


So what do you think JFK ment?

domer

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2006, 08:58:59 PM »
The point is this: if the government falls, and there's a distinct chance it could, I don't think it wise to tether one's policy to the success of a democratic government. There two reasons: we would be committed to a long haul to get democracy up and running, and it really would not be our business how the Iraqis choose or consent or act out of fear to be governed. While we could get into the finer points of a government's legitimacy, the facts on the ground would trump (as they seem to be doing now) any preference we might have or think we can impose.

Plane

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2006, 09:02:24 PM »
The point is this: if the government falls, and there's a distinct chance it could, I don't think it wise to tether one's policy to the success of a democratic government. There two reasons: we would be committed to a long haul to get democracy up and running, and it really would not be our business how the Iraqis choose or consent or act out of fear to be governed. While we could get into the finer points of a government's legitimacy, the facts on the ground would trump (as they seem to be doing now) any preference we might have or think we can impose.


Now I agree!

The Pottery barn rule is not working out .

Let all our enemys know , if we destroy , we are not compelled to rebuild.

We will destroy what we need to and just leave it there.

BT

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2006, 09:15:49 PM »
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There two reasons: we would be committed to a long haul to get democracy up and running

We have already had numerous elections there. The present government may well be replaced, but odds are it will be replaced democratically. Sure power brokering will take place, but what else is new. I don't see us leaving before 2009 or 2010 unless the dem congress says otherwise, and i don't think they will.


domer

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2006, 09:33:05 PM »
That might well be. And, if the outcome could be reliably sketched and the chances of success advantageously stated, I might even support such a longer term commitment. The berry in the crucible now, however, is whether things have deteriorated so far now that we would only be deferring the inevitable. That's the question, and, returning to my dilemma, there are no clear objective indices to guide us. If Course A has 49% chance of succeeding and Course B has 48% chance of succeeding, virtual dead heat contingent on so many unknown variables, why not choose the course that saves more of our lives. The rejoinder, of course, to which I'm sensitive, is that many more Iraqis may lose their lives. Yet, that itself may be almost an inevitability if things are as grave as touted. It's a Herculean decision that has to be made, and, effectively or not, in my little corner of the world I'm trying to contribute to it. Look at it this way, and I mean this in all seriousness and humility, deferring, of course, to those cogniscenti who may be found who can reliably guide us (and I don't consider Bush, Cheney or Rice to be among that mumber), this problem may be harder to solve than the Theory of Relativity was to discover.

BT

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2006, 09:38:36 PM »
There are no guarantees in life.

If the challenge is violent radical Islam that challenge must be met. This is no time to get all wobbly.

And i mean that with all the sincerity i can muster.

domer

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2006, 09:46:38 PM »
Forswearing agreement pending a decisive change in the debate as I see it, I will nonetheless heed your words very seriously.

Plane

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Re: Republicans: Is "Victory" in Iraq Possible? Please Explain Fully.
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2006, 01:41:32 AM »
That might well be. And, if the outcome could be reliably sketched and the chances of success advantageously stated, I might even support such a longer term commitment. The berry in the crucible now, however, is whether things have deteriorated so far now that we would only be deferring the inevitable. That's the question, and, returning to my dilemma, there are no clear objective indices to guide us. If Course A has 49% chance of succeeding and Course B has 48% chance of succeeding, virtual dead heat contingent on so many unknown variables, why not choose the course that saves more of our lives. The rejoinder, of course, to which I'm sensitive, is that many more Iraqis may lose their lives. Yet, that itself may be almost an inevitability if things are as grave as touted. It's a Herculean decision that has to be made, and, effectively or not, in my little corner of the world I'm trying to contribute to it. Look at it this way, and I mean this in all seriousness and humility, deferring, of course, to those cogniscenti who may be found who can reliably guide us (and I don't consider Bush, Cheney or Rice to be among that mumber), this problem may be harder to solve than the Theory of Relativity was to discover.


We can't know the outcome .

Not when we begin .


The establishment of a Democracy in Iraq would be a landmark in history , a hinge point and a great good thing . If it works .

If we fail we will be wounded for nothing , out a lot of time, effort, treasure and blood.

Should we never act on our ideals unless success is assured?