The F.B.I. ordered to pay $101,750,000

[Plane]

      Without the deception that the FBI performed on the rest of the system , some informer would have been exposd?


       Did that plan work?   Was a major mafia operation shut down as a result of protecting this informant?

       At the time that it was done the frameing of the four defendants must have surely been a crime , the benefits must have been speculation.

[Universe Prince]

And i am arguing that certain agents did wrong. Simple as that. You are damning the entire organization.You say the FBI I say Rico and Condon. See the friggin difference.

Yes, you're still trying to make this out to be me damning every individual member of the FBI while you gloss over the responsibility of the agency leadership and blame only two agents. On the other hand, in actuality, I am not damning every individual member of the FBI. I am criticizing the agency because the leadership of that agency signed off on framing four men for murder and deliberately hid evidence that would have exonerated four men who were wrongly imprisoned. I'm saying I don't have much trust for the FBI as an agency, not that I think all members of the FBI are lying cheats. See the frakkin' difference?

And if you see that as BS , too bad.

I see it as a willful glossing over of the facts to justify faith in the FBI and to provide grounds for you to condemn anyone who dares to criticize the FBI as an agency.

To damn law enforcement for doing their jobs doesn't make sense.

I do not damn law enforcement for doing their jobs. I criticize law enforcement when it does something other than its job. Like framing guys for murder. See the frakkin' difference?

[BT]

I am criticizing the agency because the leadership of that agency signed off on framing four men for murder

Agency leadership signed off on a coverup at the worst. Unless you have a smoking gun where they ordered Rico and Condon to shift focus of the case to protect their informant.

[Universe Prince]

Agency leadership signed off on a coverup at the worst. Unless you have a smoking gun where they ordered Rico and Condon to shift focus of the case to protect their informant.

Isn't signing off on a cover-up of framing people for murder bad enough? You seem so interested in excusing this wrongful imprisonment as just a couple of agents doing their job, making "real time life or death decisions in a world that is not black and white." Perhaps you can explain why four men being accused by a witness provided by FBI agents, whose superiors at the FBI knew exactly what the agents were doing, and the FBI leadership deliberately hiding evidence that prove the four men were not guilty of the crime is somehow just law enforcement doing their job. I want to see you justify framing people for murder and/or covering it up as law enforcement. Go ahead. This should be interesting.

[Amianthus]

the FBI leadership deliberately hiding evidence that prove the four men were not guilty of the crime

A district attorney in NC was just disbarred for doing this...

[BT]

You seem so interested in excusing this wrongful imprisonment

Where have i excused the actions of Rico and Condon.

I am simply objecting to your blanket condemnation of the FBI, and though you protest heavily you continue to name the FBI as the object of your displeasure.

[Universe Prince]

You seem so interested in excusing this wrongful imprisonment

Where have i excused the actions of Rico and Condon.

Okay, I'll rephrase. You seem interested in letting the FBI off the hook for this wrongful imprisonment as the FBI just doing it's job, making "real time life or death decisions in a world that is not black and white." I'm still waiting to see you justify framing people for murder and/or covering it up as law enforcement.

I am simply objecting to your blanket condemnation of the FBI, and though you protest heavily you continue to name the FBI as the object of your displeasure.

I'll try this again. I'm saying I don't have much trust for the FBI as an agency, not that I think all members of the FBI are lying cheats. See the frakkin' difference? Well do ya?

[BT]

'll try this again. I'm saying I don't have much trust for the FBI as an agency, not that I think all members of the FBI are lying cheats. See the frakkin' difference? Well do ya?

Nope.

You are damning the organization ( I don't have much trust for the FBI as an agency) because of the actions of SOME members even though you are oh so friggin careful to say all are not lying cheats, you still blame the whole organization.

[Universe Prince]

You are damning the organization ( I don't have much trust for the FBI as an agency) because of the actions of SOME members even though you are oh so friggin careful to say all are not lying cheats, you still blame the whole organization.

You're apparently having trouble considering the FBI as an agency rather than as merely a collection of people. The FBI is not a club or a ethnic group. It is a law enforcement agency. It is not defined by those who are members in the way that a book club or an ethnic group would be. And please take note that I said "I don't have much trust for the FBI as an agency", and that I did not say I don't have much trust for employees of the FBI. Your attempt to make my criticism of the FBI into some sort of slur against every member of the FBI is ridiculous.

And no, I am not damning anyone. My criticism of the FBI as the FBI and not merely a couple of guys is related to official actions taken (or perhaps in this case not taken) by the FBI as an agency and not as just a couple of guys. If we were talking about, just as an example, Jews, and I had said (just as an example, I don't really feel this way), I don't trust Jews, then your criticism of me for broad bushing all for the actions of some would be reasonable. We are, however, talking about the FBI, the primary law enforcement agency of the U.S. government. I have not said I distrust all FBI employees. I said I don't trust the FBI as an agency. You're trying to claim the FBI as a them. To me, the FBI is an it.

If you still don't understand the difference, then I can't help you.

I'll say again what I said before: If I should ever decide to say that all individual members of of a government agency of the government are bad people, I won't hide it or pussyfoot around it. I'll say it outright. Until that time, if I don't say it, I don't mean it. If you don't like that, too damn bad.

Now then, what happened to you explaining how the FBI leadership deliberately hiding evidence that prove the four men were not guilty of the crime is somehow just law enforcement doing their job. When does that start?

[BT]

You're apparently having trouble considering the FBI as an agency rather than as merely a collection of people.

Perhaps you are having problems comprehending that the FBI is both. It is a chartered institution comprised of a collection of people working towards a common goal or purpose. So when you damn the agency you are also damning the collection of people.

This really isn't that hard.

[Universe Prince]

Well, since, as I've said before, I'm not damning anyone, I don't have to worry about that. But then, I do know that criticizing the agency is not damning everyone who works for the agency. I have not conflated the individual with the agency. I also have not confused criticism with damnation.

I'm sure those folks at the FBI who abused and under reported use of  NSLs at a level of tens of thousands are all good folks too. Were I betting man, I'd bet most of them are nice people with whom I could be friends. And yet, I can still not trust the FBI itself. But then, I've explained all this before, in detail, several times. I doubt one more explanation will make a difference.

So I'm sorry you refuse to understand my position, but I clearly can't do anything about that. And you are apparently not going to explain how the FBI leadership deliberately hiding evidence that proves the four men were not guilty of the crime is somehow just law enforcement doing their job. I see no reason to continue this conversation.

[BT]

So I'm sorry you refuse to understand my position

And I'm sorry you confuse my disagreeing with your position as a lack of understanding of same.

[Universe Prince]

I was going to let this thread go. But then I found this:

"FBI officials up the line allowed their employees to break laws, violate rules, and ruin lives, interrupted only with the occasional burst of applause," said Gertner, berating the FBI for giving commendations and bonuses to the agents who helped send the men to prison for the killing in Chelsea of Edward "Teddy" Deegan, a small-time hoodlum.

I'm not sure how I missed seeing that before. Commendations and bonuses. Commendations and frakin' bonuses? Wow. I'm not sure much more is needed to indicate a stamp of approval from the FBI leadership. This is our FBI. Frame people for murder, and the government will congratulate you and protect you. And I'm supposed to trust the FBI. Um, no.

I should rephrase that.

And I'm supposed to trust the FBI. No   Fraking   Way.

[Universe Prince]

And then there is this story about the DEA:

Also playing into the decision to ignore the homicides, according to law enforcers, was the fact that it was primarily Mexican drug dealers who were being murdered. The sources contend that made it easier for some within law-enforcement to rationalize the deaths in pursuit of the prize at the end of the game. Honest law enforcers worry that an ?institutionalized racism? in U.S. enforcement agencies, a problem that law enforcers have tried to blow the whistle on for years, along the border has now led to officially sanctioned murders.

Whole (long) article at the other end of this link.

Another article on this from the U.K. The Observer at the other end of this link.

[BT]

m not sure how I missed seeing that before. Commendations and bonuses. Commendations and frakin' bonuses? Wow.

Were the commendations and bonuses for setting up the men? If so, you might have a point. If not, methinks you don't.