The F.B.I. ordered to pay $101,750,000

[Universe Prince]

A good reason to believe would be the very nature and definition of a coverup. And that is to limit widespread knowledge of the subject to a select few.

I should have double checked this before. I refer you to the article in the Hartford Courant, linked in reply #9:

During the civil trial that led to the judgment, lawyers for Salvati, Limone and the others put into evidence hundreds of previously secret FBI memos showing that the innocence of the four men was widely known in the FBI and documented in written reports that repeatedly reached the office of then-Director J. Edgar Hoover.

Are you saying they had the same superiors their entire career? Highly unlikely.

No. I'm suggesting that this was known by their immediate superiors at the time, and that subsequent members of the leadership of the FBI also knew and continued the cover-up, allowed the agents to remain agents, and at the very least did nothing to stop the rewarding of the agents. And frankly, I suspect any new immediate superiors to the agents would have read the files on the agents rather than be ignorant of who was working for them. So I remain skeptical that those giving commendations to the agents would have known nothing about the framing of Greco, Limone, Tameleo and Salvati.

[BT]

According to reports in this thread the revelation that superiors were aware of this was not discovered by perusing personnel files but by searching memos and interoffice correspondence unearthed by FOIA requests.

It would be silly to claim a coverup of items listed in personnel jackets.

[Universe Prince]

According to reports in this thread the revelation that superiors were aware of this was not discovered by perusing personnel files but by searching memos and interoffice correspondence unearthed by FOIA requests.

It would be silly to claim a coverup of items listed in personnel jackets.

Yes, because FBI personnel jackets are openly available to to public.<--sarcasm It would be silly to assume that any new supervisors the agents had would be completely ignorant of the cases on which the agents had worked.

[BT]

It would be silly to assume that any new supervisors the agents had would be completely ignorant of the cases on which the agents had worked.

I didn't say the supervisors were unaware of the cases Rico and Condon worked on. Apparently you assume that the framing of the four was in their personnel record that the supervisors viewed. I'm guessing it wasn't. Simply because if some supervisors were covering the agencies complicity in such an endeavor it is doubtful it would be in an internal document with potentially wide circulation.

[Universe Prince]

According to some of the articles I've read, the issue of Greco, Limone, Tameleo and Salvati came up more than once over the intervening years, so I'm finding it hard to believe that the agents' superiors would have been ignorant of the case.

Even if they were that of course does not alter the fact that the agents were being rewarded while the four men they helped frame for murder were in jail. Which means that those who did know about the case, whoever they were, did nothing to stop the agents from being rewarded.

[BT]

. Which means that those who did know about the case, whoever they were, did nothing to stop the agents from being rewarded.

One would think that those who had knowledge of the coverup would not do anything to implicate themselves by objecting to rewards and commendations.

The people who made the commendations and awards very likely did not have access to the secret memos and quite possibly were acting in good faith.

I don't think you have made your case convincingly enough to make me think otherwise.

Best you can come up with is they should have known. Not that they did know.

And then you say those involved in a criminal coverup should have stepped up and implicated themselves by objecting to run of the mill commendations and awards. I don't see that happening.

[Universe Prince]

Best you can come up with is they should have known. Not that they did know.

And then you say those involved in a criminal coverup should have stepped up and implicated themselves by objecting to run of the mill commendations and awards. I don't see that happening.

Lacking access to the FBI records, I can only do so much here. And so far, the best you can do is that the agents' superiors probably didn't know because you're just sure that they wouldn't have, which I find unconvincing.

I doubt turning down commendations for the agents would in and of itself have implicated anyone. You seem to keep assuming this was something only a handful of people knew about, and I haven't seen any evidence of that, and at least one article said the framing of the four men was widely known within the FBI. In any case, what I have actually said is that the problem with the FBI agents getting commendations and bonuses was that they were being rewarded when they should no longer have been on the payroll to in the first place. So again, for the umpteenth time, whether or not the commendations were directly related to framing four men for murder and whether or not the agents' immediate superiors in the FBI knew is mostly irrelevant.

The agents framed four men for murder with the tacit if not direct approval of their superiors and FBI leadership. That is unconscionable, in my opinion. That the agents later got commendations and bonuses is just adding insult to injury regardless of why or when they got them. You, who have argued for the FBI in this thread, seem to have a different opinion of the matter. Apparently the most you can muster up is that the agents were wrong, and you seem to object to any further criticism of the agents or the FBI. Maybe it's minor issue in some bigger picture, but I'm pretty sure Greco, Limone, Tameleo and Salvati didn't think so. I know don't think so. I guess you do.

[BT]

You seem to be using the old misstate my arguments and then attack them technique of discussion.

Point Number 1:

Where did i ever say the Rico and Condon were above criticism?

I will await patiently your proof.

[Universe Prince]

You seem to be using the old misstate my arguments and then attack them technique of discussion.

Really, Mr. "Damning the whole FBI"? You really want to start criticizing me for misstating arguments?

Where did i ever say the Rico and Condon were above criticism?

I will await patiently your proof.

Where did I say you said, specifically, that Rico and Condon were above criticism? I believe what I said was, "Apparently the most you can muster up is that the agents were wrong, and you seem to object to any further criticism of the agents or the FBI." You did say you were "arguing that certain agents did wrong. Simple as that." You also argued "that the FBI does not necessarily live in a Pollyanna land, they make real time life or death decisions in a world that is not black and white." And you objected to my criticizing the FBI as an agency. And you've gone out of your way to say that commendations the agents' received were irrelevant. At one point I asked you specifically "What is your opinion of what agents Rico and Condon did to Greco, Limone, Tameleo and Salvati? And what do you think should have happened to agents Rico and Condon as a result?" As an answer you referred me back to your previous comments. So apparently the most you can muster up is that the agents were wrong, and you seem to object to any further criticism of the agents or the FBI.

[BT]

and you seem to object to any further criticism of the agents or the FBI.

I don't see any evidence in any of my posts that would give the impression that I SEEM to object to criticism of Rico or Condon. I do object to your broad brush of the agency. The named individuals involved should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law,k even J Edgar if one can be prosecuted post posthumously.

[Universe Prince]

I don't see any evidence in any of my posts that would give the impression that I SEEM to object to criticism of Rico or Condon.

Here's what I said, "you seem to object to any further criticism of the agents or the FBI." Do you see the difference yet?

The named individuals involved should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law,k even J Edgar if one can be prosecuted post posthumously.

Good. I'm glad we agree on that.

[BT]

Here's what I said, "you seem to object to any further criticism of the agents or the FBI." Do you see the difference yet?

I certainly object to broad brush criticism of the agency, i don't object to criticism current or further of those named agents who took part in the coverup and the framing.

Certainly even you can see that difference.

[Universe Prince]

i don't object to criticism current or further of those named agents who took part in the coverup and the framing.

Good. We're making progress.