Author Topic: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success  (Read 12068 times)

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sirs

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2007, 01:49:52 PM »
Italy took over a section of Austria during the war. Russia did as well. Russia installed governments, creating some of the eastern European countries that were previously part of Austria. Italy just annexed the sections of Austria that it invaded.  There are places in Italy that you can go that still speak German, and many of the older citizens still claim to be Austrian. Had a neighbor in New Jersey (he's probably long gone by now) that came to the US just at the outbreak of war, who was born and raised in Trieste (now an Italian seaport). He still had his Austrian passport and paperwork and claimed to be an Austrian.

Ouch.......now if we can only get some examples of actual U.S. form of Government being ram rodded thru, vs the continued unsubstantiated & invalid claims of a puppet government doing it for the U.S.  Oh wait, this must be more of that lack of evidence is proof of such.  My bad
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2007, 01:44:12 AM »
<<There are places in Italy that you can go that still speak German, and many of the older citizens still claim to be Austrian>>

You're right!  South Tyrol.  There's even a South Tyrolese separatist movement that still sets off the odd bomb now and then.

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2007, 07:33:52 AM »
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

hnumpah

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2007, 09:10:13 AM »
Quote
This is definately good news , but Domer makes a valid point , if the good news is still good three months from now it will be a lot more signifigant than a good report of two days duration.

Lets try to return to this.

Iraq Attacks Continue - from http://www.antiwar.com/
 
38 Die, 105 Hurt in Baghdad Market Blast
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070306/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_070305165918;_ylt=Akw2_WXqQvapBJmNfdiS.bpX6GMA
 
Bomb Shatters lBaghdad's Storied Literary Street
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/05/AR2007030500041_pf.html
 
Gunfight at Baghdad's Deserted Shopping Mall
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/06/wiraq06.xml
 
Monday: 126 Iraqis, 3 GIs Killed; 196 Iraqis, 1 GI Wounded
http://www.antiwar.com/updates/?articleid=10627
 
Yep. just dazzling.
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Michael Tee

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2007, 10:58:41 AM »
And the successes just keep on piling up - - from today's AP

<<9 U.S. soldiers killed north of Baghdad

<<http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070306/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

<<Violence has fallen in Baghdad, where a joint U.S.-Iraqi security crackdown was in its third week. But U.S. military officials say insurgents have fled the capital for outlying areas, where attacks are on the rise. Direct attacks on U.S. forces in Diyala are up 70 percent since last July, according to figures provided by the U.S. military.>>

Why are we not surprised?  Oh, well, "Bring it on!" as your C-in-C would say.


_JS

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2007, 11:06:00 AM »
Quote
You're right!  South Tyrol.  There's even a South Tyrolese separatist movement that still sets off the odd bomb now and then.

You mean Südtirol and the Südtiroler Volkspartei has represented the people there ever since the end of the war. They generally don't support independence or unification with Austria, but do fight (politically) for the rights of German and Ladin speakers.

Of course it will all belong to Germany one day anyway :)
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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2007, 11:18:13 AM »
Quote
Ouch.......now if we can only get some examples of actual U.S. form of Government being ram rodded thru, vs the continued unsubstantiated & invalid claims of a puppet government doing it for the U.S.  Oh wait, this must be more of that lack of evidence is proof of such.  My bad

Hawaii would be an example of the U.S. ram-rodding their rule (and government) over a sovereign nation.

Otherwise, you are mostly right in that no one really wants the U.S. system of government. One wonders why that is?

Regardless, we were much better at supporting some of the world's most awful dictatorships such as the Shah of Iran, Anastasio Somoza, the military junta of El Salvador and their death squads, the military junta of Honduras and their death squads, the Peron's and the military junta of Argentina (and yes, their death squads), Augusto Pinochet, the Maoist Khmer Rhouge, Joaquín Amparo Balaguer Ricardo, Rafael Trujillo, Siad Barre, South Africa, and the list could grow very long...

I'm not sure our history is great in either direction.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
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sirs

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2007, 11:58:53 AM »
Quote
now if we can only get some examples of actual U.S. form of Government being ram rodded thru, vs the continued unsubstantiated & invalid claims of a puppet government doing it for the U.S.  Oh wait, this must be more of that lack of evidence is proof of such.  My bad

Hawaii would be an example of the U.S. ram-rodding their rule (and government) over a sovereign nation.

I only have a few minutes here, and so I'll use them in quickly responding to this post, as the other posts will take longer than I have.  Hawaii became a part of our country, so how that compares with anything I was stating, I'm not sure.  You claiming Iraq is going to be our 51st state?  And IIRC, despite some Hawaiians who didn't want to become a part of America, others did, including the ruling entities, no?


Otherwise, you are mostly right in that no one really wants the U.S. system of government. One wonders why that is?

No, they just want to come here.  Easier that way, I guess


Regardless, we were much better at supporting some of the world's most awful dictatorships ...

No one said our country was perfect, only perfectly intentioned.  And more so, kinda refutes the notion we were running them via a puppet regime, with our policies ramrodded thru
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2007, 01:22:01 PM »
Quote
Hawaii became a part of our country, so how that compares with anything I was stating, I'm not sure.  You claiming Iraq is going to be our 51st state?  And IIRC, despite some Hawaiians who didn't want to become a part of America, others did, including the ruling entities, no?

I suggest you go back a little further in history to when Americans overthrew the monarchy of Hawaii. The United States Government apologised for the overthrow of the monarchy in 1993 with Public Law 103-150. The Blount Report, issued shortly after the overthrow sided with the Monarchy.

If it is a hint at why it happened, the first Governor of Hawaii was Sanford Dole who participated in the 1887 revolution. He helped write the 1887 constitution which stripped the native Hawaiians and Asians of voting rights. Dole's cousin was James Dole, an immensely wealthy pineapple plantation magnate.

So, no it has nothing to do with Iraq becoming the 51st state, sheesh.

I was just giving an example of America forcing its will on a sovereign nation.

Quote
No, they just want to come here.  Easier that way, I guess

Yes, the entire world wants to live here. Salute the flag and sing God Bless America.

Quote
No one said our country was perfect, only perfectly intentioned.

"Perfectly intentioned?" I pray that is a joke. I might accept "sometimes well-intentioned." But "perfectly intentioned" is clearly not true of any nation on Earth.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2007, 05:32:53 AM »
Quote
Hawaii became a part of our country, so how that compares with anything I was stating, I'm not sure.  You claiming Iraq is going to be our 51st state?

no it has nothing to do with Iraq becoming the 51st state, sheesh.

Then why bring it up, when I was asking for an example of us ramrodding our policies thru, in setting up some puppet Government?


I was just giving an example of America forcing its will on a sovereign nation.

So was Mexco, so was France, but those regions of California, Texas, Lousiana, etc., all became part of our nation.  we're still missing the point here Js.....america trying to set up a puppet Government, where we supposedly simply pull strings, telling those leaders to jump, and they respond "how high?"


Quote
No, they just want to come here.  Easier that way, I guess

Yes, the entire world wants to live here. Salute the flag and sing God Bless America.

They all do?  Ummmm, ok, if you say so


Quote
No one said our country was perfect, only perfectly intentioned.

"Perfectly intentioned?" I pray that is a joke. I might accept "sometimes well-intentioned." But "perfectly intentioned" is clearly not true of any nation on Earth.

No joke, just a mild exaggeration.  Most all good intentions believe themselves to be perfect in their own way.  Communism, Captailism, etc, have their purists, who belive those policies are perfect, in what they're designed to do.  But that's the point, no matter how good, no matter how perfect a plan, proposal, belief, even country is supposed to be, in reality it can never attain such a threshold.  I absolutely believe our country is perfectly intentioned.  That doesn't mean it's perfect in any way, far from it.  But does go a LONG ways in the right direction, compared to practically every other country on this globe.  Obviously I'm biased here, but I can think of no other country to have been born and raised in

[/quote]
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hnumpah

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2007, 12:45:01 PM »
Shi'ite Pilgrims Die in Bomb Attack Despite US Offensive - http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2334906.ece
 
Tuesday: 10 GIs, 215 Iraqis Killed; 406 Iraqis Wounded -  http://www.antiwar.com/updates/?articleid=10631

Gunmen Storm Iraq Jail, Free 140 - http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/KHA659520.htm

Simply scintillating.

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BT

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2007, 01:25:17 PM »
Quote
Shi'ite Pilgrims Die in Bomb Attack Despite US Offensive - http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2334906.ece

Some 93 Shia pilgrims were killed and 150 wounded by two suicide bombers in the town of Hillah, 60 miles south of Baghdad yesterday. The attack is likely to lead Shia leaders to say that the US military offensive in Baghdad is failing to defend their people.


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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2007, 01:46:48 PM »
Quote
Then why bring it up, when I was asking for an example of us ramrodding our policies thru, in setting up some puppet Government?

Ummm...because we set up a puppet government in Hawaii after we overthrew the Queen. It was a "republic" and had a "President" and a "constitution" and everything. Do I need to teach a class or something? It does not get much more ram-rodding than that.

Quote
So was Mexco, so was France, but those regions of California, Texas, Lousiana, etc., all became part of our nation.

We forced our will on France? I think you might be underestimating the power of Napoleonic France. M Bonaparte sold the land primarily due to a number of treaties and problems the French were having with slave revolts in Haiti. It simply wasn't worth their trouble and provided us the opportunity to access New Orleans without having to constantly negotiate access with Spain (who only recently lost some of the land to France).

Quote
we're still missing the point here Js.....america trying to set up a puppet Government, where we supposedly simply pull strings, telling those leaders to jump, and they respond "how high?"

You are saying that America has never set up a puppet government? Despite the two glaringly obvious examples of Hawaii and Panama (which we basically created out of Colombia). I could give you quite a detailed list. Surely that isn't the point you are trying to make? Puppet regimes were a part of the Cold War strategy, and I'm sure you understand that.

Quote
Most all good intentions believe themselves to be perfect in their own way.

I honestly have no idea what that means. I am going to guess that we aren't using the same definition of "perfect" because I typically don't see things in black and white terms, but to me "perfect" is like "pregnant." There isn't a "sort of perfect" just as there isn't a "sort of pregnant." You either are or you aren't.

Quote
I absolutely believe our country is perfectly intentioned.

Does that mean that you believe that every policy this country has ever undertaken has been done with perfect intentions?

Quote
But does go a LONG ways in the right direction, compared to practically every other country on this globe.  Obviously I'm biased here, but I can think of no other country to have been born and raised in

Nah. It is a country, not really so different from a lot of other countries on the globe. There are Brits who have the exact same sentiments about Britain (in fact Blake wrote a poem titled "Jerusalem" that is sung today as an unofficial anthem of the UK that expresses those sentiments well). There are Japanese that believe Japan is that special country.

In reality, different nations do well in some regards and poorly in others. To me, it is important to learn from others and from past mistakes and understand where we are going in the future.

I don't think any of us is given special providence by where we were born or raised, or live now.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

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Re: Baghdad plan is a dazzling success
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2007, 05:57:19 PM »
Ummm...because we set up a puppet government in Hawaii after we overthrew the Queen. It was a "republic" and had a "President" and a "constitution" and everything. Do I need to teach a class or something? It does not get much more ram-rodding than that.

Actually, the Queen was overthrown because she threatened to replace the then-current constitution with one that she had written herself. The US stepped in on one side of the brewing civil war - which is what we apoligized for. Sounds like the ram-rodding was being done on the part of the Queen.
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DAZZLING


Ambush on Baghdad Shiites kills 32
By BRIAN MURPHY, Associated Press WriterSun Mar 11, 6:44 PM ET
A suicide car bomber barreled into a flatbed truck packed with Shiite pilgrims Sunday, touching off a giant fireball that left charred bodies strewn through a street in the heart of Baghdad. At least 32 people were killed.

The ambush-style attack showed suspected Sunni insurgents again taking aim at the millions of worshippers who traveled to the holy city of Karbala and are now heading home.

It also displayed the limitations of the U.S.-led crackdown seeking to restore order in the capital, where bombers still strike with deadly efficiency against mostly Shiite targets in an apparent bid to ignite an full-scale civil war.

Blasts killed at least 15 others in Baghdad a day after Iraqi officials warned an international conference that Iraq's sectarian violence could spread across the Middle East if not quelled.

Outside the capital, Sunni extremists attacked Shiites and set about 30 houses on fire in villages around Muqdadiyah, 60 miles northeast of Baghdad, forcing dozens of families to flee, local officials and witnesses said.

The latest attacks followed a week in which hundreds of Shiite pilgrims were killed trying to reach the rituals in Karbala, about 50 miles south of Baghdad. The exodus faces the same risks.

The pilgrims riding back in the truck — about 70 men and boys — passed through the most dangerous stretch of Sunni-dominated territory. They were celebrating their good fortune as they moved into heavy traffic at a place known as Embassy Intersection because the German diplomatic compound occupies one corner.

One of the pilgrims, Mustafa Moussawi, noticed a car racing far too fast coming toward them from behind.

"Then the car bomber slammed us," said Moussawi, a 31-year-old vegetable store owner who suffered slight injuries when he was thrown to the street by the force of the blast.

He was among the luckiest. Most others were swallowed by instant flames. Another survivor, Nasir Sultan, a 38-year-old Transportation Ministry worker, said he watched people thrash helplessly in the inferno.

Police and hospital officials said at least 32 people died and 24 were injured.

"I blame the government," said Moussawi. "They didn't provide a safe route for us even though they knew we were targets for attack."

In the past two years, the Shiite militia Mahdi Army provided security for the pilgrimage — marking the end of 40 days mourning for the 7th century battlefield death of the Prophet Muhammad's grandson. Shiites consider him the rightful heir of Islam's leadership, which help cement the rift with Sunni Muslims.

This year, however, the Mahdi militiamen has been sent to the wings under a deal between its leader, radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, and the government to ease the way for the Baghdad security sweeps.

The pact has apparently led to a decrease in execution-style slayings blamed on Shiite death squads. It also made the pilgrims easier prey.

Shortly before the truck was attacked, a bomb-rigged car in central Baghdad killed at least five pilgrims and injured six. In another part of the city, a suicide bomber detonated a belt packed with metal fragments inside a minibus heading to a mostly Shiite area, killing at least 10 people and wounding five.

Brig. Gen. Dana Pittard, who commands U.S. units training Iraqi forces, said nearly 80 percent of Iraqi military divisions are under full local control, but getting the forces fully outfitted with "logistical support" — such as communications and state-of-the art equipment — "is going to take much more time."

He also encouraged Iraqi government efforts to bring back some former military and security personnel from Saddam Hussein's regime — who were part of wholesale dismissals to clear away members of his Baath party.

"It's what a person's talents and experience can bring to the situation," said Pittard, who noted complaints that the past Baath purges "went way, way too far."

On Saturday, Iraq's prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, opened a conference of neighboring nations and world powers with a warning that Iraq's sectarian strife could spread across the region.

The one-day meeting was highlighted by rare direct exchanges between Iran and the United States — which reportedly grew testy in the closed-door session with other envoys.

Iran pressed for a timetable for a withdrawal of U.S.-led forces from Iraq, and the U.S. delegation reasserted claims that Shiite militia receive weapons and aid from Iranian sources.

But the gathering also ended with both sides leaving open the possibility of further contacts to discuss Iraq — where they share interests as Baghdad's top allies. The U.S. and Iranian statements were carefully framed in cautious diplomatic language, but they were seen by some possibly significant steps toward easing their nearly 28-year-old diplomatic freeze.

Iraq's foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, called the conference "an icebreaking attempt to provide an atmosphere for some discussions."

Zebari also repeated the fears that Iraq could be the breeding ground for a wider Mideast meltdown.

"No country will be immune from Iraq's failure and the consequences that they will suffer," he told CNN.

A senior member of Iraq's biggest Shiite political bloc — which maintains very close ties to Iran — applauded the interaction between Iran and the United States.

"We hope that this conference would represent a good start to establish a kind of understanding between American and Iran regarding the accusations and counteraccusations about Iraq," said Humman Hamoudi, who heads the group's external affairs committee.

But, say some analysts, any changes in relations will be likely a slow evolution.

"The superpower is like a trolley bus and not like a car. A car can turn around on a narrow road," said Imad Fawzi Shueibi, Damascus-based political researcher. "The trolley has to make a wide, slow turn. This is what you are seeing now. The superpower trolley beginning to turn in Iraq."

Meanwhile, the U.S. military reported three soldiers killed Sunday. One was killed by a roadside bomb southwest of the capital, while another died in combat and the third was killed in an unspecified "non-combat incident" in northern Iraq, the military said.

In the Salahuddin province northwest of Baghdad, Iraqi-led forces backed by U.S. warplanes staged raids against suspected insurgent training bases, including sites linked to anti-aircraft batteries, the U.S. military said. At least seven suspected insurgents were reported killed.

In the northern city of Mosul, a suicide bomber attacked the offices of the largest Sunni political group, said Mohammed Shakir al-Ghanam, a member of the Iraqi Islamic Party. Three guards were killed and two wounded, he said.

The reason for the attack was not immediately clear. The party is the only Sunni political movement with a national base.

Mosul, about 225 miles northwest of Baghdad, also has witnessed a rise in suspected Sunni insurgent attacks. Iraqi troops detained 12 suspected militants in the Mosul area in raids since Saturday, said an Iraqi commander, Brig. Gen. Mutaa al-Khazraji.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070311/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&printer=1;_ylt=An_8f0pU7BtOhlYToF9dpHwUewgF