Author Topic: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look  (Read 7106 times)

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yellow_crane

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2007, 08:59:04 PM »

Conscripting Americans to go to war will change things here at home.

It was the enchilada in the Vietnam protests.

Nobody knows the extent of protesting occuring today because the media does not cover much, and the part they do cover seems to have trouble reporting correct numbers.  

On a national level, unlike the Vietnam area, there is not much effort nowadays to stand up and deliver a response to protesters being shuttled into rope-offs and cages, and generally handled with the same new m.o. as the New Cops handling crowd control situations like riots.  

Things have changed in the protest arena.

The technological components alone give strong support to the controllers.

The rights of protestors now seem moot, to a point.  The stragtegies and tactics of modern cops seem to reflect that they think anything necessary justifies  protecting  the Homeland and keeping it Secure, rather than conceiving it in the manner cops had to in the sixties--as legally permissable dissent.  

It was responsible monitoring with strong legal help in the waiting, and a press willing, at least, to cover it when you could smell the fire, that kept the cops straight back then.

This broad band of sem-iorganized advocacy and support has evaporated.

And now, the draft.

The news talk shows and the pundits rarely mention protests, but I have heard them mention nervously that if the draft were to return, it would guarantee more and bigger protests.

The ones out there now, protesting out of principle, are the base of this political animal.   And when suddenly everybody else nows feels threatened with being conscripted to fight the fight for the mega-corporations, you are going to see swelling upon swelling of the protesting ranks.


 

BT

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2007, 09:44:52 PM »
If you are an advocate of pay as you go, wouldn't conscription be as goos as any way to pay as you go?

Or is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?

The_Professor

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2007, 09:51:40 PM »
If you are an advocate of pay as you go, wouldn't conscription be as good as any way to pay as you go?

Or is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?


Well, citizenship is an interesting topic, namely what should enable you to obtain the right of citizenship? The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military. Sounds good to me, with some modifications, perhaps.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 12:59:01 AM by The_Professor »
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Universe Prince

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2007, 10:04:59 PM »

The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.


As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2007, 10:10:23 PM »

If you are an advocate of pay as you go, wouldn't conscription be as goos as any way to pay as you go?

Or is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?


So now conscription is a price to pay to be a citizen? So where I was being sarcastic earlier, you are, apparently, being serious. Kinda scary.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2007, 10:20:23 PM »
is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?

And yeah i would have no problem with a gender neutral reinstatement of the draft.

I have a feeling current memebers of the military might not be happy with the possible loss of reenlistment bonuses but so it goes.


Michael Tee

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2007, 10:22:36 PM »
<<You are talking about Reagans peace dividend.>>

No, I was just speaking in general terms.  I don't know if there was a real peace dividend or if this was just some rhetorical device.

<<Yes we did reduce Military spending by more than 33% over the following decade andthere was a concidental robust economy.>>

Was it just a reduction in military spending or was the money that would have gone into the military put somewhere else instead?  Did the total overall spending levels remain the same, or were they reduced by the amount of the cuts in the military budget?


<<But every improvement becomes the new norm , we must not retreat to the pre-WWII  tiny Army we kept at the ready for most of our history , unless our potential for enemys return to pre-WWII levels.>>

If you are thinking of China, I would think your problems with China could be resolved diplomatically by defining reasonable and fair spheres of influence, relieving both parties of the need to maintain vast military expenditures.  Of your other potential enemies, I don't think any of them are even close to the pre-WWII levels of the Axis Powers in terms of manpower and armaments.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2007, 11:20:58 PM »
"From the military recruiter's POV, it's boys (and girls) who are poor, uneducated"

Wrong.
Today's volunteer force is more educated than the general population -- more than 90 percent of new recruits have a high school diploma, compared with only 75 percent of the youth population. Most of today's recruits come from middle class households not poor households.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Plane

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2007, 11:56:56 PM »
<<You are talking about Reagans peace dividend.>>

No, I was just speaking in general terms.  I don't know if there was a real peace dividend or if this was just some rhetorical device.

::::::::::: Of course there was a peace dividend, it took the fom of ceaseing to increase the military budget every year , a was our habbit every year from 1938 till 1988.:::::::::::::

<<Yes we did reduce Military spending by more than 33% over the following decade and there was a concidental robust economy.>>

Was it just a reduction in military spending or was the money that would have gone into the military put somewhere else instead?  Did the total overall spending levels remain the same, or were they reduced by the amount of the cuts in the military budget?

::::::::: As far as I know there has never ben a cut in total spending since Andrew Jackson was president , but the total size of the military was reduced sharply during the Bush 41 regime and was reduced some more during the Hillary and Bill Clinton Co-Presidency. The increases in Taxation during that period combined with decreases in military spending but didn't amount to a reduction in deficit , just a less than would have been debt , a debt that was smaller in purportion to income even as it still grew in absolute size. ::::::::


<<But every improvement becomes the new norm , we must not retreat to the pre-WWII  tiny Army we kept at the ready for most of our history , unless our potential for enemys return to pre-WWII levels.>>

If you are thinking of China, I would think your problems with China could be resolved diplomatically by defining reasonable and fair spheres of influence, relieving both parties of the need to maintain vast military expenditures.  Of your other potential enemies, I don't think any of them are even close to the pre-WWII levels of the Axis Powers in terms of manpower and armaments.

::::::::::::::Nor are we spending a comperable portion of our budget on the military as we did in response to the Axis , the military is a big prt of the present budget but it is a lessor part than social programs and is looseing ground. China has a long way to come till it has the military force we do , but they are increaseing their military budget prodigiously , perhaps they intend to catch up , this might not be  a problem at all , we don't mind haveing strong freinds , and arn't they freindly?::::::::::::::::::
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 12:55:48 AM by Plane »

Universe Prince

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2007, 12:19:41 AM »

is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?


Is citizenship in the U.S. a commodity?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2007, 12:37:15 AM »

is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?


Is citizenship in the U.S. a commodity?


Lets define "commodity?".

The time of my life is a commodity that I rent to my employer , so what isn't a commodity?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 12:50:57 AM by Plane »

BT

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2007, 12:48:20 AM »
Quote
Is citizenship in the U.S. a commodity?

Apparently so. People are willing to cheat and steal to obtain it. People are willing to risk life and limb to be granted this privilege. Some advocate making it easier to obtain. Others advocate making it more rare.

So let's kill two birds with one stone. Any illegals caught in the US wil automatically be inducted into the armed services and after 1 year training and two years active duty will be granted citizenship.

That lower the barrier enough for you?





The_Professor

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2007, 12:59:34 AM »

The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.


As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.

I stand corrected; you are indeed correct.
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                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Plane

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2007, 01:02:52 AM »

The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.


As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.

I stand corrected; you are indeed correct.


Is it granted then that citizenship is the States, to define and  to grant?

Universe Prince

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Re: Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2007, 05:18:37 AM »

Lets define "commodity?".

The time of my life is a commodity that I rent to my employer , so what isn't a commodity?


Is it your assertion then that citizenship something bought and sold for gain?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--