Author Topic: Collective Bargaining  (Read 12053 times)

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Plane

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #90 on: February 21, 2011, 12:10:10 AM »
I think that Union members could acquiesce to some givebacks, there really is a good case to make for the times requireing belt tightening.

But I don't see accepting this as unilateral decree from a government that could be discussing this with the union.

I see the subject of pention and givebacks of any kind to be negotiable , but the first stage of negotiation need not be shooting the opposite negotiator.

sirs

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #91 on: February 21, 2011, 01:08:33 AM »
I think that Union members could acquiesce to some givebacks, there really is a good case to make for the times requireing belt tightening.

But I don't see accepting this as unilateral decree from a government that could be discussing this with the union.

I see the subject of pention and givebacks of any kind to be negotiable , but the first stage of negotiation need not be shooting the opposite negotiator
.

Desperate times, and all that that....but let's see some of this serious "acquiesence"


Quote
Yet, with the pending legislation, none of that happens.  No bumps, just some ridges, and employees that keep both their jobs and their pensions

So the union leadership is misleading the rank and file, because the Wisconsin deal is a good one?
Guess they ought to put it up for a vote down at the union hall.


Strange how I never said that (it was a "good deal"), but you claimed it any ways.  SOP, at this point, I suppose.  Nothing is going to be a "good deal" at this point.  But they are good at misleading.  At least you got that right
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #92 on: February 21, 2011, 01:27:02 AM »
Quote
Yet, with the pending legislation, none of that happens.  No bumps, just some ridges, and employees that keep both their jobs and their pensions

Oh I'm sorry. By that statement i mistakenly interpreted your position that the Wisconsin deal was much better than it was being portrayed by union leaders and their puppet rank and file currently holding the Wisconsin Capitol Rotunda hostage.

Me, i think it a better deal than no job at all, just in case there is some lack of clarity as to where i stand.

My only qualms are that a government that negotiates in good faith and then backs out of that deal, is probably not the type of institution i would invest much trust in.

But that's just me.

sirs

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2011, 01:32:13 AM »
Me too
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

kimba1

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2011, 01:38:21 AM »
not the 1st time unions does give backs. ex. auto=unions. but that example took massive amount of work. this can get uglier

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2011, 10:00:00 AM »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #96 on: February 21, 2011, 11:06:04 AM »
Just imagine the media outrage if this were a group of Republicans that were holding up democracy
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

kimba1

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #97 on: February 21, 2011, 11:20:15 AM »
just dawned on me if the teachers got such high wages and benefitsv and the score are so low. can this also mean there is a very low amount of teachers in wisconsin?

sirs

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2011, 12:33:10 PM »
HOW

That is the main issue....the HOW the unions became so predominant in shaping legislation.  And HOW now that legislation has been leading states to economic ruin.  It's one thing to lobby for perks, most every "group" has their lobbiests, to get their little piece of the pie.  But these Unions & their leadership, using Plane's dues, regardless of his support or not, literally bankroll politicians. ....  Again, NOTHING WRONG WITH TRYING TO GET THE BEST DEAL ONE CAN GET, so don't trying pulling that garbage.  The issue is HOW the unions came about with these deals, and the repercussions placed on the state and the tax payer, as a result


« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 04:13:32 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2011, 06:11:48 PM »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #100 on: February 22, 2011, 06:26:02 PM »
D'oh
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2011, 07:36:52 PM »
Shocking Level of Influence Exposed:

Union Boss Trumka Talks to Obama White House
EVERY DAY and Visits a Couple Times A Week


Shocking Level of Influence: Trumka Talks to White House EVERY DAY and Visits a Couple Times A Week
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #102 on: February 22, 2011, 08:42:30 PM »
This is really quite enlightening.  When it was Obamacare, even though Republicans knew they couldn't defeat it, they voted against it.....in mass.  and although it should have stalled in the Senate, a nice slight of hand, got it passed regardless the country's uproar.  The Republicans then took that proud vote to the people, and won some stunning nationwide elections in Nov.

Now, we have Democrats who are RUNNING from voting.  The one thing that they were hired to do, to VOTE up/down legislation, they're running from.  Why can the GOP face up and vote against something that was going to pass, and come out smelling like roses, but not a wimp of MSM protest as Dems run from a vote that, if they truely were against, they'd vote it down, and if it passed, proudly take that to the people.  If it's so bad, they whould take majority status next election, right?  They could then repeal the "horrible legislation", right?

Someone please explain this disconnect to me

---------------------------------------

Indiana Democrats Now Fleeing the State to Avoid Tough Union Votes
A political epidemic is gripping the upper Midwest:

House Democrats are leaving the state rather than vote on anti-union legislation, The Indianapolis Star has learned.

A source said Democrats are headed to Illinois, though it was possible some also might go to Kentucky. They need to go to a state with a Democratic governor to avoid being taken into police custody and returned to Indiana.

The House was came into session this morning, with only two of the 40 Democrats present. Those two were needed to make a motion, and a seconding motion, for any procedural steps Democrats would want to take to ensure Republicans don?t do anything official without quorum.

With only 58 legislators present, there was no quorum present to do business. The House needs 67 of its members to be present.


I have to hand it to Illinois Governor Pat Quinn.  When he imposed massive job-killing tax hikes in the dead of night last month, I was convinced the move would chase businesses ad family out of the Prairie State -- further decimating Springfield's finances.  Being the political novice that I am, I failed to recognize the cagey economic stimulus plan embedded within Quinn's action:  Luring truant Democratic lawmakers from across the country into Illinois to prop up local motels and chain restaurants.


UPDATE: At least one fugitive Wisconsin Democrat is, in a very literal sense, phoning it in:

The Committee on Transportation and Elections have begun the executive session on a proposed voter identification bill.

The bill would require voters to show a photo ID in order to vote at a polling place or obtain an absentee ballot.  Democratic Sen. Erpenbach joins the session over the phone. Sen. Lazich says Erpenbach can't vote over the phone but says she'll wait for him to arrive

Vote Democrat in 2012:  "When the going gets tough, we'll literally flee the jurisdiction!"
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #103 on: February 24, 2011, 01:57:57 PM »
HOW

That is the main issue....the HOW the unions became so predominant in shaping legislation.  And HOW now that legislation has been leading states to economic ruin.  It's one thing to lobby for perks, most every "group" has their lobbiests, to get their little piece of the pie.  But these Unions & their leadership, using Plane's dues, regardless of his support or not, literally bankroll politicians. ....  Again, NOTHING WRONG WITH TRYING TO GET THE BEST DEAL ONE CAN GET, so don't trying pulling that garbage.  The issue is HOW the unions came about with these deals, and the repercussions placed on the state and the tax payer, as a result


Public employees have been cramming the Wisconsin state Capitol to protest the governor's plan to cut their take-home pay and gut their collective bargaining rights. You can't blame them for objecting when the state reneges on a deal. But they should have been protesting years ago, when politicians and union leaders struck a bargain that was too good to be true.

Government workers have long accepted a tradeoff. They get lower pay than they might get in the private sector, but better retirement benefits.  They give up some current luxuries for more security later on.  The great majority of them have pension plans with guaranteed payouts -- an option that has largely disappeared from the private sector.

Most businesses long ago abandoned defined-benefit plans because they were unaffordable. The public sector has stayed with them, though -- apparently to prove those private companies right. State and local governments, according to pension expert Joshua Rauh of Northwestern University, have promised $3 trillion more in benefits than they have set aside to pay for them.

Why? Because there are powerful incentives for both legislators and union leaders to do that. Politicians (particularly, though not exclusively, Democratic ones) want to ingratiate themselves with unions, whose members can be a huge help on Election Day. Union leaders want to keep their members happy and return their favored elected officials to office.

The problem, of course, is that such generosity costs a lot of money, which taxpayers may resist paying. That's where the back-loading of compensation comes in.

Promising government workers excellent retirement plans, off in the future, gratifies union members without outraging the taxpayers. The burden is postponed until some future date, which makes the process painless -- until the future arrives.

Wisconsin is a typical state, with more than $45 billion in unfunded obligations by Rauh's calculation. Taken as a percentage of gross state product and state revenue, he informed me, that makes it about average or "maybe slightly worse."

But the phenomenon is a national one. Though Republican Gov. Scott Walker has targeted union negotiations, the same problem exists in states where public employees lack the collective bargaining rights at issue in Madison. South Carolina, Alabama and Mississippi are among those, and their unfunded obligations loom even larger than Wisconsin's.

If collective bargaining gave too much power to public employee unions, you might expect states that mandate collective bargaining to have (SET ITAL) lower (END ITAL) unfunded obligations -- because the unions would be able to demand full funding. But that's not the case.

Union-friendly Illinois is one of the worst states in the country in shortchanging the public employee pension system. Over the years, elected officials have cut the state's contributions, diverted funds to pay other expenses and borrowed money to cover current pension obligations. But no mobs of teachers and police officers descended on the state Capitol to protest, because they didn't grasp the implications.

Now we can all see the damage done. Though public employees have paid their share, the state has failed to keep up its end of the bargain. So in Illinois, as in Wisconsin and many other places, there is a conflict between what they were promised and what the citizenry is prepared to pay.

Government workers and taxpayers are both victims of this scam, which allowed extravagant pledges that don't have to be redeemed until later -- by which time the governors and union officials who devised them are gone, leaving someone else to cash the check.

In the private sector, these shenanigans would never be tolerated. Public pension systems get to assume implausibly high returns on their investments, which gives the impression they can meet their future needs.

The looser rules "allow governments to base their budgets on economic fictions," writes Orin Kramer, who oversees investments for the New Jersey system, in The New York Times. You could even call it fraud.

Republicans in Congress are trying to prevent deception by requiring public pension systems to follow the same basic rules as corporations. Politicians hate the idea for the same reason the rest of us -- government workers included -- should welcome it. As Moody's Investors Service said in endorsing the plan, it would "provide new incentives to state and local governments to take action to ensure public-employee pension plans' long-term viability."

Creating incentives for governments to behave honestly and responsibly? It's a new concept, but it might be worth a try.


How Public Employees and Taxpayers Got Scammed
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 04:13:06 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Collective Bargaining
« Reply #104 on: February 25, 2011, 04:30:25 PM »
Rubicon: A river in Wisconsin

The magnificent turmoil now gripping statehouses in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana and soon others marks an epic political moment. The nation faces a fiscal crisis of historic proportions and, remarkably, our muddled, gridlocked, allegedly broken politics have yielded singular clarity.

At the federal level, President Obama's budget makes clear that Democrats are determined to do nothing about the debt crisis, while House Republicans have announced that beyond their proposed cuts in discretionary spending, their April budget will actually propose real entitlement reform.

Simultaneously, in Wisconsin and other states, Republican governors are taking on unsustainable, fiscally ruinous pension and health-care obligations, while Democrats are full-throated in support of the public-employee unions crying, "Hell, no."

A choice, not an echo:
Democrats desperately defending the status quo;
Republicans charging the barricades.

Wisconsin is the epicenter.

It began with economic issues. When Gov. Scott Walker proposed that state workers contribute more to their pension and health-care benefits, he started a revolution. Teachers called in sick. Schools closed. Demonstrators massed at the capitol. Democratic senators fled the state to paralyze the Legislature.

Unfortunately for them, that telegenic faux-Cairo scene drew national attention to the dispute - and to the sweetheart deals the public-sector unions had negotiated for themselves for years. They were contributing a fifth of a penny on a dollar of wages to their pensions and one-fourth what private-sector workers pay for health insurance.

The unions quickly understood that the more than 85 percent of Wisconsin not part of this privileged special-interest group would not take kindly to "public servants" resisting adjustments that still leave them paying less for benefits than private-sector workers. They immediately capitulated and claimed they were only protesting the other part of the bill, the part about collective-bargaining rights.

Indeed. Walker understands that a one-time giveback means little. The state's financial straits - a $3.6 billion budget shortfall over the next two years - did not come out of nowhere. They came largely from a half-century-long power imbalance between the unions and the politicians with whom they collectively bargain.

In the private sector, the capitalist knows that when he negotiates with the union, if he gives away the store, he loses his shirt. In the public sector, the politicians who approve any deal have none of their own money at stake. On the contrary, the more favorably they dispose of union demands, the more likely they are to be the beneficiary of union largess in the next election. It's the perfect cozy setup.

To redress these perverse incentives that benefit both negotiating parties at the expense of the taxpayer, Walker's bill would restrict future government-union negotiations to wages only. Excluded from negotiations would be benefits, the more easily hidden sweeteners that come due long after the politicians who negotiated them are gone. The bill would also require that unions be recertified every year and that dues be voluntary.

Recognizing this threat to union power, the Democratic Party is pouring money and fury into the fight. Fewer than 7 percent of private-sector workers are unionized. The Democrats' strength lies in government workers, who now constitute a majority of union members and provide massive support to the party. For them, Wisconsin represents a dangerous contagion.

Hence the import of the current moment - its blinding clarity. Here stand the Democrats, avatars of reactionary liberalism, desperately trying to hang on to the gains of their glory years - from unsustainable federal entitlements for the elderly enacted when life expectancy was 62 to the massive promissory notes issued to government unions when state coffers were full and no one was looking.

Obama's Democrats have become the party of no.
Real cuts to the federal budget? No.
Entitlement reform? No.
Tax reform? No.
Breaking the corrupt and fiscally unsustainable symbiosis between public-sector unions and state governments? Hell, no.

We have heard everyone - from Obama's own debt commission to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff - call the looming debt a mortal threat to the nation. We have watched Greece self-immolate. We can see the future. The only question has been: When will the country finally rouse itself?

Amazingly, the answer is: now.

Led by famously progressive Wisconsin - Scott Walker at the state level and Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan at the congressional level - a new generation of Republicans has looked at the debt and is crossing the Rubicon. Recklessly principled, they are putting the question to the nation: Are we a serious people?


Kraut crushes another
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 04:40:37 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle